The Number Of Ex Muslims In America Is Rising

[Kakar-Wardak]

Islam is still Islam in the muslim world however in anglospeaking countries Seen many idiots trying to create an angloislam, really should just do us all a favour and leave Lol, why do these people think they matter? What 1 % of the muslim world with no political and military might and they think they matter Lol, a few godless europeans listen to their crap and they think they are reformers.

[khushal]

Yeah , but to be very honest, with few exceptions the quality of our converts is pretty low, they typically fall into these categories

a.) The Ghetto demographic that is urban and are converting because they're really following some rapper or hip hop artist.

These types wear hijab, but will "twerk" in the club.

b.) Marginalized white women, generally very overweight or seen as unattractive; they're looking for male acceptance and they think becoming some culture's perception of a "pious woman" is the way to get that.

c.) Hipster Liberals who think that Islam is LGBTQ positive, Pro-Feminism, and is okay with open relationships and basically just became Muslim as some sort of political statement to "stick it to the right wing", because Muslims are oppressed by cis white males.

d.) New Age spiritual tourists who are just looking for a new obscure religion to experiment with.

e.) the desperate White or Black guy who just wants to get into bed with an attractive Middle Eastern woman and will say/do anything to get there.

f.) The rare convert who actually came to Islam out of sincere spiritual and intellectual journey and now embraces it when they're coevinced.

Deconversions were meant to happen, they even happened in Nabi(saw)'s time. I used to be really upset about people leaving Islam but then I realized that these are the signs that are meant to come for other changes to be ushered. We can't save everyone, but ultimately they will realize what a grave decision they made. Islam is not a numbers game, it's about people who really seek spiritual awakening.

I also see this. When I came to America and started going to school and learning the Social and Physical Sciences, I started to question the Islam that was taught to me. I am a stubborn person so I never doubted Islam but I started doubting the people that had taught me Islam. Whenever I would get into arguments with people that Islam does not say that or say this(for example pray and you will be rewarded with wealth which does not make sense since wealth is not the goal in Islam), they automatically go into Shamlawar mode and call me Kuffar.

[khushal]

To be honest American Muslims don't really have as much freedoms as they claim they have. Only time they will have freedom (not per se religious freedom) is when they water down their religion and be flag waving American dream believing American.

I don't think it's the same here in London, the confidence level of Muslims and the freedoms here is something I haven't seen any where.

American Muslims and non muslims do have all the Freedoms but there is a campaign of shaming going on and it is effecting a very small amount of weak minded people.

[Qami]

.....they automatically go into Shamlawar mode and call me Kuffar.

[Akbar]

American Muslims and non muslims do have all the Freedoms but there is a campaign of shaming going on and it is effecting a very small amount of weak minded people.

Of shaming who?
As far as I have seen is American Muslims are required to sing the national anthem and buy into the American culture to be acceptable. That's why many Muslims end up losing or watering down their religion and religious identity. In Britain especially London Muslims are comfortable and I must say have cultural,economical and political power as compared to other western countries.

Also the dawah scene in America is almost non existent .

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

I also see this. When I came to America and started going to school and learning the Social and Physical Sciences, I started to question the Islam that was taught to me. I am a stubborn person so I never doubted Islam but I started doubting the people that had taught me Islam. Whenever I would get into arguments with people that Islam does not say that or say this(for example pray and you will be rewarded with wealth which does not make sense since wealth is not the goal in Islam), they automatically go into Shamlawar mode and call me Kuffar.

Strangely, I had a really Orthodox Phase in the early 2000s ....but in retrospect it never felt right to me. I knew that Islam made sense but I felt like I was merely trying to artificially validate a narrative about Islam. But at the same time it was a period when Islam was center stage in public scrutiny and opponents were open about deriding it; it made me believe that dissenting too much might feed into their agenda. It was also a time Irshad Manji was making headways and basically pandering to their interests so I was supicious of "reform Muslims"

But I knew in my heart of hearts that the model for the world that the Orthodox often relayed wasn't so much "idealistic" but "idealized"; they didn't seem have any understanding of how real variables worked, everything was some presupposed constructs of human behavior and motivations and then some impractical methods to address them. I may have tried to defend that from time to time, but I couldn't find any intellectually credible justification for doing so. It was more or less "communal association" which motivated me.

For example I was often introduced to preachers who'd argue that Unless a woman has a necessity; she should stay in her house. The disconnect here is that numerous Companions of the Prophet(saw) were women, and they were socially active and not simply going out "necessarily" whatever that means. What I found strange is often they'd use a certain ayat to justify this; but the ayat was specifically referrencing the wives of the Prophet. To which they would respond "Muslimat should emulate the Prophet's wives (ra), just as we do Muhammad's(saw)'s sunnah". Yet there were holes in that argument, firstly the wives of the Prophet did not simply remain in their homes. They were very active, secondly as were the women companions, the argument suggests that the women who were companions were not following the wives example then if this injunction held. In reality, this was a temporary injunction related to a specific incidence and had nothing to do with what our conventional Ulama were preaching. It was clear to see that these preachers didn't know what they were talking about, and we just bought into it because we're trained to nod in agreement around Shayukh.

Ultimately I became introduced to alternate ways to approach Islam, that were neither White-washed sock puppets nor obscurantists daft to the real world That there was an entire intellectual enterprise that was uniquely Muslim from centuries ago. And I don't simply mean "The Golden Age of Islam", rather a platform where we can look at the teachings of Islam holistically, in context and rationally sound as well as spiritually fulfilling. Muslims of today are virtually robbed of that, whether they follow the Pandering/bootlicking "reformist" camp or the conventional camp. It was there that I started to see that ideas that I would shun because it didn't fit into the conventional narrative, like the theory of evolution, would be perfectly compatible if we took a more analytical approach and understand that many things were communicated idioms to convey broader more abstract concepts than material ones.


What I'm saying about these converts; it's rare to find people who convert for genuinely sincere reasons. It always seems to be some other less genuine motive if you try to talk to them. Some are driven by trying to be contrarian for political or social reasons; which is common among Western converts, some just so they can fool society to get a legally sanctioned marriage to shut up someone's family or community.

This is why we shouldn't care as much about numbers, whether they increase or dwindle. Who cares about numbers if it invites and just becomes a vehicle for people's most vain inclinations. Numbers don't matter. Substance does.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Of shaming who?
As far as I have seen is American Muslims are required to sing the national anthem and buy into the American culture to be acceptable. That's why many Muslims end up losing or watering down their religion and religious identity. In Britain especially London Muslims are comfortable and I must say have cultural,economical and political power as compared to other western countries.

Also the dawah scene in America is almost non existent .

First of all, acceptance has nothing to do with freedom. If people join Islam or leave Islam because some group of people didn't accept them or pat them on the back for it, then they're in the wrong religion.

Also, let's get our facts straight. UK is full of Tommy Robinsons and Majid Nawaaz, just waiting to literally push Muslims into the Thames river. The Mayor of London also does a lot of pandering to white liberals; he may have political power, but he's acquired it by being an appeasing the status quo. The very thing you're scrutinizing here. And yet the UK community is rife with crazed psychopath radicals planning UK's downfall....because they feel so comfortable?

I've seen the UK "Dawa'ah Scene".....all of them talk like they're Ali G and look up to "thug culture", just like that Black Pakistani kid does. .....I'm not going to congratulate that.

[Akbar]

First of all, acceptance has nothing to do with freedom. If people join Islam or leave Islam because some group of people didn't accept them or pat them on the back for it, then they're in the wrong religion.

Also, let's get our facts straight. UK is full of Tommy Robinsons and Majid Nawaaz, just waiting to literally push Muslims into the Thames river. The Mayor of London also does a lot of pandering to white liberals; he may have political power, but he's acquired it by being an appeasing the status quo. The very thing you're scrutinizing here. And yet the UK community is rife with crazed psychopath radicals planning UK's downfall....because they feel so comfortable?

I've seen the UK "Dawa'ah Scene".....all of them talk like they're Ali G and look up to "thug culture", just like that Black Pakistani kid does. .....I'm not going to congratulate that.

Why are being aggressive brother?
My comment was for khushal to answer but I assume you love to just jump in to show your opposition.
Americans are generally ignorant about the world and also the islamophobes industry is run from America.
I think you should pay a visit and I will gladly show you around. Btw they speak English here not American.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Why are being aggressive brother?
My comment was for khushal to answer but I assume you love to just jump in to show your opposition.
Americans are generally ignorant about the world and also the islamophobes industry is run from America.
I think you should pay a visit and I will gladly show you around. Btw they speak English here not American.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound aggressive. That wasn't what I was trying to convey. I'm just saying that our freedoms here aren't really curtailed legally speaking. People bugging us or showing their prejudices is just a reality that is unavoidable anywhere. Even years before 9/11 I used to get called "Saddam Hussein" and stupid **** like that You're right Americans are quite often dumb as bricks, but there are also people here who go out of their way to kiss our hands because they have all this white guilt. A lot of hate crimes happen in America but those crimes end up getting prosecuted. Even recently some morons who stole a bunch of dawa'ah pamphlets got charged for it. My response is that you're saying things are much better in the UK ....There's a lot of scandals and such

LOL They speak English in America too ....but I meant that a lot of those Daw'ah guys sound "thuggy" they have that thuggy lingo...and don't come off very intelligent ...I call them Ali G clones, because they sound/act like Ali G....I also notice they get very emotional easily.

[Akbar]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound aggressive. That wasn't what I was trying to convey. I'm just saying that our freedoms here aren't really curtailed legally speaking. People bugging us or showing their prejudices is just a reality that is unavoidable anywhere. Even years before 9/11 I used to get called "Saddam Hussein" and stupid **** like that You're right Americans are quite often dumb as bricks, but there are also people here who go out of their way to kiss our hands because they have all this white guilt. A lot of hate crimes happen in America but those crimes end up getting prosecuted. Even recently some morons who stole a bunch of dawa'ah pamphlets got charged for it. My response is that you're saying things are much better in the UK ....There's a lot of scandals and such

LOL They speak English in America too ....but I meant that a lot of those Daw'ah guys sound "thuggy" they have that thuggy lingo...and don't come off very intelligent ...I call them Ali G clones, because they sound/act like Ali G....I also notice they get very emotional easily.

I agree some get emotional.
The way they speak is London accent , most people here don't speak that posh British accent. I like Ali g still but his accept was very fake.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

I agree some get emotional.
The way they speak is London accent , most people here don't speak that posh British accent. I like Ali g still but his accept was very fake.

Yeah, you got me there, I don't know the regional accents well. I know there's cockney and then everything else ...

Ali G is hilarious as a comedy, but I'd hate seeing real life people who behave like that.

[Firdousi]

Even us Muslims have bought this Western story about "the end of history", "times have changed" and "we live in a different world now". No, we dont. Societies and cultures change, but there is something that will never change: human nature. Its a biological fact b*tch that will never leave.

Western societies are tolerant right now, because they thought that with their Cold War victory the entire planet belonged to them. So they gave themselves the opportunity to fix all their mistakes. They allowed millions of uneducated third worlders to pour into their countries and expanded their global system to almost the entire planet. BUT just get yourselves a history book: Western countries have been historically some of the most racist and intolerant societies ever created. Their socieities are ethnically, culturally and religiously homogenous so they are not used to this kind of diversity that Globalization is bringing to their countries.

In my opinion Muslims should prepare themselves for a backlash. West is going down and that will create a lot of hysteria. Also Western countires are very, very, very, childish. When the time comes they wont spare any of us. They will need a scapegoat for their downfall and Muslims got all the odds. The only thing that saves us to a point is the emasculation of Western men by feminazis. Also their population is growing older while we remain young.

And this does not mean Western people are bad because in my own opinion and experience they are way better than the rest of socieities. But human nature is like this. We should prepare ourselves for some bumpy times ahead. Nationalism is on the rise and this ideology is extremely violent, irrational, bigoted and full of hatred. Nationalism needs a foreign enemy to blame all the miseries on. Muslims will become the new Jews of the West.

[Firdousi]

Also Akbar is right. Muslims in Europe are way more confident than in the USA. We can brag about our faith and nothing will happen to us but in the USA hostility toward Muslims is growing. Thats why so many of them go atheist and try portray themselves as freethinkers or liberal Muslims. Its like the SPanish Jewish that were once called "marranos" (pigs) that in order to prove that they were not Jewish anymore ate pork in front of their houses so Christians called them "pigs" because of that. Modern liberal Muslims are like that nowadays lol

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Also Akbar is right. Muslims in Europe are way more confident than in the USA. We can brag about our faith and nothing will happen to us but in the USA hostility toward Muslims is growing. Thats why so many of them go atheist and try portray themselves as freethinkers or liberal Muslims. Its like the SPanish Jewish that were once called "marranos" (pigs) that in order to prove that they were not Jewish anymore ate pork in front of their houses so Christians called them "pigs" because of that. Modern liberal Muslims are like that nowadays lol

I don't think that's true. Speaking from my own experiences, I openly pray in the public. If anything I get a lot of curious people asking me questions. Yes, I've had some of the "Go Back to your country" jargon happen from time to time. They're a minority

Most of the people you're talking about that are 'Atheists" and "liberal Muslims are Iranian or Desis. You rarely find apologetic Afghans, although Afghans here are a mess.

The reason it seems the way you describe is because the volume of Muslims in Europe is both proportionally larger and more concentrated. Here Muslims are very spread out and less concentrated.

But there's a lot of PC Liberal hoopla in favor of Muslims here; that doesn't seem as strong in Europe. In Europe the rising right is planning to wipe you guys out Auschwitz style. There's also a lot of Maajid Nawaz types where you are as well. I will give you one thing, I do walk on egg shells when it comes to commenting on LGBTQ. I won't say my real views regarding Homosexuality and Transgenderism ....though I don't endorse tormenting and attacking them and should be protected from that. I also feel they should NOT be socially and legally validated.


However, isn't that the same in Europe? If you went around saying gays should be killed or something you'd be put in prison. The pandering liberal Muslims you speak of are saying/doing those things because they want a pat on the back from Westerners. Many were taunted for being Muslim and want acceptance. That doesn't happen in Europe? I'm sure it does. The Maryam Namazie's of the world are in Europe. Even Ayaan Hirsi Ali was based in the Netherlands originally.

[UnknownUser]

I don't think that's true. Speaking from my own experiences, I openly pray in the public. If anything I get a lot of curious people asking me questions. Yes, I've had some of the "Go Back to your country" jargon happen from time to time. They're a minority

Most of the people you're talking about that are 'Atheists" and "liberal Muslims are Iranian or Desis. You rarely find apologetic Afghans, although Afghans here are a mess.

The reason it seems the way you describe is because the volume of Muslims in Europe is both proportionally larger and more concentrated. Here Muslims are very spread out and less concentrated.

But there's a lot of PC Liberal hoopla in favor of Muslims here; that doesn't seem as strong in Europe. In Europe the rising right is planning to wipe you guys out Auschwitz style. There's also a lot of Maajid Nawaz types where you are as well. I will give you one thing, I do walk on egg shells when it comes to commenting on LGBTQ. I won't say my real views regarding Homosexuality and Transgenderism ....though I don't endorse tormenting and attacking them and feel they should be protected. I also feel they should be socially and legally validated.


However, isn't that the same in Europe? If you went around saying gays should be killed or something you'd be put in prison. The pandering liberal Muslims you speak of are saying/doing those things because they want a pat on the back from Westerners. Many were taunted for being Muslim and want acceptance. That doesn't happen in Europe? I'm sure it does. The Maryam Namazie's of the world are in Europe. Even Ayaan Hirsi Ali was based on the Netherlands originally.

US, Europe, both same ****, although in the US everyone except Natives are emmigrants, so there less chance of an Autswish. In general I think Americans are probably more open people, as a result of how their history started, while Europeans are more reserved kind.