Death

[PFgulalai]

Death-->A biogeochemical cycle, simply known as decomposition of the organic matter--->release of carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, phosphorous, calcium, and Potassium into the soil/air/water-->enrichment of the soil as fertilizer--->consumption and beginining of new life forms--->life--->death--->cycle repeats...

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Exactly, waste of life! Life has no purpose. Feelings are artificial. Everything is purposeless, because of a tip of the ice-berg formula by miss biologist.

Pathetic.

[PFgulalai]

Exactly, waste of life! Life has no purpose. Feelings are artificial. Everything is purposeless, because of a tip of the ice-berg formula by miss biologist. Pathetic

LOL!!!Life is never purposeless, not according to me (and not the one I have) at least. Feelings originate from humans and they are natural and real. How come you think they are artificial? Nothing is purposeless to the human mind. We give to the world a lot even when we are dead bodies.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Yes, "we" give because it was "us" who brought "ourselves" into being. LOL!

[Roshina]

How are you so confident that he does not exist? Do you mind sharing the evidence with me?

Shlombay :p You don't ask for the "absence" of the existence of something You ask for the existence of it. I mean, if I told you that I've lost a pen or that I don't have a pen, you'd want me to prove to you that I don't have a pen? Like, seriously? On the contrary, if you told me you HAVE a pen, I'd want you to give me evidence that you have the pen - perhaps the pen itself.

So, although this is between you and Gulalai, I'm gonna have to ask you to prove that God exists - or to tell us why you're so confident that God exists because I really want to know what theists' evidence for the existence of God is, since they're ALWAYS asking atheist to prove that God DOESN'T exist and that's way too illogical for me to comprehend. I mean, prove that something doens't exist? C'mon now. How's one to prove that?

And this question is specifically for you, Shlombay. Don't take it negatively - I'm just really interested in your evidence since you keep asking for evidence of God's non-existence from someone who doesn't believe in it.

[Baygham]

Well said Gulalai khore,
Yesterday someone in desperation suggested that the reason we muslims dont think is because it is actually discouraged as bidath. This lit a lightbulb in my head and the whole equation started to make sense.

The immense fear of God, grilled since infancy with the 'mullah bang' in the infants ear, in the abscense of healthcare and sanitation and with 10+% rate of infant mortality, all the child hears from his or her mother is constant prayers in a state of panic. Fear and fear more, pray to relieve that fear for you can do nothing else. A paralysis of sorts.

Growing a little older and puberty hits you. The eyes start roaming around to the opposite sex. No, no, you will be killed immediately, god, honour, so much at stake. Curb your emotions or 100 lashes, eternal fire. So you lower your gaze and avoid the opposite sex as if it is a fatal contagious disease.

The fortunate few go to some school and end in a college, you open a few science books and the worlds open up a little.
What a neutron star? one spoon the weight of an ocean.
Evolution, so this adam, bibi hawa thing could be a story like the saifulmaluk qisai.

The wondering mind makes you ask a simple innocent question and the whole world collapses on you. Murtad, be-gairata, be-iimana, khudai na manni, sooch kai. How dare you think, when God did all the thinking for you.

But I have this huge cerebral cortex that the dog and frog does not possess and in college I read the only purpose of this cortex is to think.
No, no the purpose of both your mellon sized brain and the peanut sized rats brain is to praise Allah, shouts the mullah back. If you dare to use more then the pea size portion that is common with the rat you will burn in eternal hell. The angel of death will suffocate you and then in the deapest pits of hell your skin will be removed and whats left of you, put in smoldering lava. Allah wrote this Quran and had these arabian night tales to go with it and if you have one thought, one thought outside this, you and your whole clan will be burned.

Whats with this burning, mullah saab. Can allah nuke me instead, the fast instantaneous annihilation of atoms will be better and more humane for me.

No, allah did not know about nuking in the 5th century, he just likes burning and peeling the skin off.

For what?

For thinking you moron, dont you know everything is in the Quran, if you think of something that is not in the Quran like nuking than that is bidath and a bidathi is a munkar and a munkar is a murtad and a murtad is to be burned, and before burning lashed and stoned to death.

Kha dha mulla saab, tha khushala, we will stop thinking.

[Baygham]

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Lets agree that Islam does not exist we will die and that is it.
But what if Islam actually does exist than what?

Shlombay wrora,
just for the sake of an experiment, for one moment remove all fears from your brain.
Imagine you are in this lovely place, with your family safe and happy around you and you will grow old with your family and they will grow old with you and when really old you will say your good buys and leave a happy smilling family behind.
No hell or burning for you, because hitler and the SS is not running your after life. You may or may not drift into some peaceful place like your life.

Now imagine your dad lived such a life,

Now imagine your children would live such a life.

Now tell me would you get scared if a mullah came and visited you one day.

[PFgulalai]

How are you so confident that he does not exist? Do you mind sharing the evidence with me?

A thing can "exist" only if it exists in relation to some other thing in some way. You exist for me because I exist for you in this REAL world. All the things that exist for us so far are a part of "the known world" to us.Hence we can have two possiblities: (1) god is "infinite" which means there is no other god.If there is no other god, how could we relate its existence to some other thing?If we can't relate, how can it "exist" then?, OR (2) God is THE KNOWN WORLD which, by definition, does not remain God anymore.Since in THE KNOWN WORLD, I and you exist for each other.We relate to each other.In yours and God's case, you are relating to him but he is NOT.If that is the case, why can't we relate to the celestial teapot or SnowWhite princess since by definition they also qualify as God!!!

I can tell you about my secret test that will give you the evidence as well. The test is called "roja-mata test". You can try it as well because after this you might have to provide me the evidence for existence as well :P...So before sleeping one day, I closed my eyes and prayed to God to provide me with a crystal clear proof of his existence with in a week.(Actually it got extended to months, and even year since I thought God might be busy). He did not show up or gave me any hint/clue.So my mind came up with three reasons for solving the great puzzle of God's existence/non-existence: (a) God does not exist, (2)God is unable to (or can't) give you this evidence, or (3) God does not want to reveal himself.

I concluded from (2) and (3) that somebody is not worth worshipping if he/she can't even hear/see/feel me, and hence can't be called god since god is something worth worshipping.Hence, absence of response equates to the non-existence since he could not relate his existence to me.If he can't be a part of the known world (in which I relate to you, Shlombay), he is non-existent.

Now you would present another argument of onmnipotent god as the creator of the entire universe. You would say that god is self-sufficient and stands above existence, time, space, etc.You would say that this world is the perfect artwork of god and that the cause/reason for this world's creation is god. "The Known (visible/real) world" is also self-sufficient and stands above time, space, and existence. If we can accept the existence of god without a cause, why can't we say that the known world is just like this and without a cause? Furthermore, if things have to be created by a Creator, then someone must have created that Creator as well. If god, by definition is not created, then everything mustn't have been created as well? Why is the purpose of creation only relevant in cases of creation of life and universe, and not in the case of the omnipotent creator?

Another question: if god is the ultimate and only source of every single thing in this world, then god was devoid of all these things before he came into existence.So let's say when god decided to create Adam, he made time and space for Adam.Then god must have lived outside of time and space before the birth of Adam.Something which lives outside time and spaces qualifies as non-existent. So how would you say that something existing like "life" and "universe" comes from a non-existing (before Adam 's creation) being came from god who himself was non-existing then? The nature of God violates all laws of physics. Consider his dimensionless nature. He knows future hence time dimension is of no value to him.He is everywhere...hence space is useless in his case. His existence is dependent on existence of faith.No faith means he can't be there. Thus he is limited or tied to the belief and hence is not omnipotent since he has no free will or choice. Since he has no free will he can't take decisions in time.But if he stands above time how is he gonna take decisons in time? So he is dimensionless--he stands above time and space. If he is dimensionless, what is he then?-- A vaccum, an empty space, a void, a singularity.

Now you tell me where does he live or what is his nature? or how is he? what does he do? what are the physical, chemical, and biolgoical characteristics?Do you have any secret tests to prove his existence to us?

[PFgulalai]

I never said that is the face. I argued that its a win-win situation for me. And a lose-lose for her. She will say show me proof. I will say prove me does not exist. I have a Quran. My Quran has never been wrong. My Quran has miracles that I have seen.

Just because you bring Talmud does not mean it is a win-win situation for you..I will bring my Lycodestellia book which proves the non-existence of God, so hwo will you win then???

you don't have to always defend your atheist buddies. I notice you love siding with anyone who is an atheist just so you can maintain friendship with them. If you are in need of friends, I can be your friend too.

Shlombay,that is really wrong to talk like this.The discussion must be open to everyone, even though if the questions were for me. You can't stop her from reflecting her thoughts. She does not need your friendship when I am with her.

[Baygham]

A thing can "exist" only if it exists in relation to some other thing in some way. You exist for me because I exist for you in this REAL world. All the things that exist for us so far are a part of "the known world" to us.Hence we can have two possiblities: (1) god is "infinite" which means there is no other god.If there is no other god, how could we relate its existence to some other thing?If we can't relate, how can it "exist" then?, OR (2) God is THE KNOWN WORLD which, by definition, does not remain God anymore.Since in THE KNOWN WORLD, I and you exist for each other.We relate to each other.In yours and God's case, you are relating to him but he is NOT.If that is the case, why can't we relate to the celestial teapot or SnowWhite princess since by definition they also qualify as God!!!

I can tell you about my secret test that will give you the evidence as well. The test is called "roja-mata test". You can try it as well because after this you might have to provide me the evidence for existence as well :P...So before sleeping one day, I closed my eyes and prayed to God to provide me with a crystal clear proof of his existence with in a week.(Actually it got extended to months, and even year since I thought God might be busy). He did not show up or gave me any hint/clue.So my mind came up with three reasons for solving the great puzzle of God's existence/non-existence: (a) God does not exist, (2)God is unable to (or can't) give you this evidence, or (3) God does not want to reveal himself.

I concluded from (2) and (3) that somebody is not worth worshipping if he/she can't even hear/see/feel me, and hence can't be called god since god is something worth worshipping.Hence, absence of response equates to the non-existence since he could not relate his existence to me.If he can't be a part of the known world (in which I relate to you, Shlombay), he is non-existent.

Now you would present another argument of onmnipotent god as the creator of the entire universe. You would say that god is self-sufficient and stands above existence, time, space, etc.You would say that this world is the perfect artwork of god and that the cause/reason for this world's creation is god. "The Known (visible/real) world" is also self-sufficient and stands above time, space, and existence. If we can accept the existence of god without a cause, why can't we say that the known world is just like this and without a cause? Furthermore, if things have to be created by a Creator, then someone must have created that Creator as well. If god, by definition is not created, then everything mustn't have been created as well? Why is the purpose of creation only relevant in cases of creation of life and universe, and not in the case of the omnipotent creator?

Another question: if god is the ultimate and only source of every single thing in this world, then god was devoid of all these things before he came into existence.So let's say when god decided to create Adam, he made time and space for Adam.Then god must have lived outside of time and space before the birth of Adam.Something which lives outside time and spaces qualifies as non-existent. So how would you say that something existing like "life" and "universe" comes from a non-existing (before Adam 's creation) being came from god who himself was non-existing then? The nature of God violates all laws of physics. Consider his dimensionless nature. He knows future hence time dimension is of no value to him.He is everywhere...hence space is useless in his case. His existence is dependent on existence of faith.No faith means he can't be there. Thus he is limited or tied to the belief and hence is not omnipotent since he has no free will or choice. Since he has no free will he can't take decisions in time.But if he stands above time how is he gonna take decisons in time? So he is dimensionless--he stands above time and space. If he is dimensionless, what is he then?-- A vaccum, an empty space, a void, a singularity.

Now you tell me where does he live or what is his nature? or how is he? what does he do? what are the physical, chemical, and biolgoical characteristics?Do you have any secret tests to prove his existence to us?

gulalai khore, ka dhumra sar ii khoogolay no gham ba sa oo. Aw baygham ba dha ghama sala murr ki dha. Za ka khu mullah saab wai chi sooch haram dhay,, look what happens when you start thinking.

By the decree of our ahli-hadith brother sangar, and his less well versed brother shomblay, you are hereby commanded to stop thinking and revert back to using only the pea sized portion of your brain that God intended you to use so you may not evolve above the intelligence level of a rat. Accept this last chance at Toba or you will be sangsar-ed by sangar (hey i did not notice the similarity before).

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

A thing can "exist" only if it exists in relation to some other thing in some way. You exist for me because I exist for you in this REAL world. All the things that exist for us so far are a part of "the known world" to us.Hence we can have two possiblities: (1) god is "infinite" which means there is no other god.If there is no other god, how could we relate its existence to some other thing?If we can't relate, how can it "exist" then?, OR (2) God is THE KNOWN WORLD which, by definition, does not remain God anymore.Since in THE KNOWN WORLD, I and you exist for each other.We relate to each other.In yours and God's case, you are relating to him but he is NOT.If that is the case, why can't we relate to the celestial teapot or SnowWhite princess since by definition they also qualify as God!!!

There are many things that we don't know of, does that mean they don't exist? Everything is a mirror of God.

I can tell you about my secret test that will give you the evidence as well. The test is called "roja-mata test". You can try it as well because after this you might have to provide me the evidence for existence as well :P...So before sleeping one day, I closed my eyes and prayed to God to provide me with a crystal clear proof of his existence with in a week.(Actually it got extended to months, and even year since I thought God might be busy). He did not show up or gave me any hint/clue.So my mind came up with three reasons for solving the great puzzle of God's existence/non-existence: (a) God does not exist, (2)God is unable to (or can't) give you this evidence, or (3) God does not want to reveal himself. I concluded from (2) and (3) that somebody is not worth worshipping if he/she can't even hear/see/feel me, and hence can't be called god since god is something worth worshipping.Hence, absence of response equates to the non-existence since he could not relate his existence to me.If he can't be a part of the known world (in which I relate to you, Shlombay), he is non-existent.

You can't expect radio-waves to reveal themselves to you unless you find the right apparatus. Now clean your heart from mockery and be sincere, He will reveal Himself. Seeing is not always believing.

Now you would present another argument of onmnipotent god as the creator of the entire universe. You would say that god is self-sufficient and stands above existence, time, space, etc.You would say that this world is the perfect artwork of god and that the cause/reason for this world's creation is god. "The Known (visible/real) world" is also self-sufficient and stands above time, space, and existence. If we can accept the existence of god without a cause, why can't we say that the known world is just like this and without a cause? Furthermore, if things have to be created by a Creator, then someone must have created that Creator as well. If god, by definition is not created, then everything mustn't have been created as well? Why is the purpose of creation only relevant in cases of creation of life and universe, and not in the case of the omnipotent creator?

It is obvious that you have been created. Worry about that first. Just because you can't comprehend some phenomenon does not mean that it is false.

Another question: if god is the ultimate and only source of every single thing in this world, then god was devoid of all these things before he came into existence.So let's say when god decided to create Adam, he made time and space for Adam.Then god must have lived outside of time and space before the birth of Adam.Something which lives outside time and spaces qualifies as non-existent. So how would you say that something existing like "life" and "universe" comes from a non-existing (before Adam 's creation) being came from god who himself was non-existing then? The nature of God violates all laws of physics. Consider his dimensionless nature. He knows future hence time dimension is of no value to him.He is everywhere...hence space is useless in his case. His existence is dependent on existence of faith.No faith means he can't be there. Thus he is limited or tied to the belief and hence is not omnipotent since he has no free will or choice. Since he has no free will he can't take decisions in time.But if he stands above time how is he gonna take decisons in time? So he is dimensionless--he stands above time and space. If he is dimensionless, what is he then?-- A vaccum, an empty space, a void, a singularity.

A Creator is not limited by his creation.

Now you tell me where does he live or what is his nature? or how is he? what does he do? what are the physical, chemical, and biolgoical characteristics?Do you have any secret tests to prove his existence to us?

I suppose dreams are non-existent?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Qrratugai khore, could be please tell us why you believe in God.

Manana, in advance.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

What I find fascinating is that Qrratugai believes in God yet she is siding with those who are Atheist. I wonder why she does not stand on our side. This is a matter of the Existence of God.

In this instance she should be on our side.

As much as I respect her, I find it amusing that she always chooses to side with the Atheist.

Mind-blowing.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I simply asked Shlombay to give his reasons for his belief in God, and he said, "My reasons are the same as yours, since you're a Muslim, too, right?"

But he doesn't know my reasons in my belief in God. I still don't know what his reasons are, and I'm still interested in hearing them if he has any.

If you are a Muslim and I am a Muslim and he is a Muslim, then why do you need his reasoning?

You, however, side with the Atheist and you said that there is no concrete reasoning or evidence that God Exists. Your reasoning is not the reasoning of a Muslim, sorry to say.

So, why do you belief in God.

Hence, the onus is on your to prove why you believe in God.

I will be waiting for a long response. Thank you, in advance.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Maybe Qrattugai wants to seperate blind believers from the thinking believers.

Fair enough!

Now she should present why she is a "thinking believer." How has she come to know that He Exists?