Why the Taliban do what they do

[Baygham]

I know, I know, you will show me proof...but you actually buy those "proofs?"

LOL the princess's honor is being protected by her molester.

What has the world come too, now I have to plead innocence to a servant of a late ninteenth century punjabi mullah who in turn sold for 10 shilling his entire 'Zamir' and then went out and fabricated a convoluted tale to molest what the servant now wishes to protect. LMAO.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

LOL the princess's honor is being protected by her molester.

What has the world come too, now I have to plead innocence to a servant of a late ninteenth century punjabi mullah who in turn sold for 10 shilling his entire 'Zamir' and then went out and fabricated a convoluted tale to molest what the servant now wishes to protect. LMAO.

You have the audacity to mock the authenticity of the Quran and now you are using my beliefs as a means to escape the question?

What hypocrisy! You are truly a character.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Thank you for the clarification.
I thought that is what you meant. Just was not sure.

[Baygham]

You have the audacity to mock the authenticity of the Quran and now you are using my beliefs as a means to escape the question?

What hypocrisy! You are truly a character.

I am still laughing, more at my own self. How low can it go from here. Let me restate what I said above.

LOL the princess's honor is being protected by her molester.

What has the world come too, now I have to plead innocence to a servant of a late ninteenth century punjabi mullah who in turn sold for 10 shilling his entire 'Zamir' and then went out and fabricated a convoluted tale to molest what the servant now wishes to protect. LMAO.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Listen, be ghairat.

At my expense don't mock the authenticity of the Quran. You can mock me all that you want. It will not affect me.

But have some manners and decency, don't mock the authenticity of the Quran. If you don't believe in the Quran, then it is a totally different issue. In that case, it would be much more wiser for you to stay decent than to stoop low.

[Baygham]

Listen, be ghairat.

At my expense don't mock the authenticity of the Quran. You can mock me all that you want. It will not affect me.

But have some manners and decency, don't mock the authenticity of the Quran. If you don't believe in the Quran, then it is a totally different issue. In that case, it would be much more wiser for you to stay decent than to stoop low.

Wai, wai, kismatha, show me one ray of hope.

Oh spirits of my proud departed forefathers, show me some mercy.

I confess I have sinned, but this punishment - so severe.

Sent me Oh Gods a worthy foe, Dha sa dhee;

wai, wai, kismatha, noor soomra oojarram. dha aagreez dha nukar dha nukar na ba oos thaboos keeghi zamong dha iman.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Hey this Ahmadi has enough ghairat to stand in front of you be ghairat to tell you to stop mocking the Quran.

It appears that you are Muslim.

So, what type of Muslim are you who believes that there are many versions of the Quran?

[Baygham]

Hey this Ahmadi has enough ghairat to stand in front of you be ghairat to tell you to stop mocking the Quran.

It appears that you are Muslim.

So, what type of Muslim are you who believes that there are many versions of the Quran?

For you I have only one answer, each time you ask me something I will answer the same.

LOL the princess's honor is being protected by her molester.

What has the world come too, now I have to plead innocence to a servant of a late ninteenth century punjabi mullah who in turn sold for 10 shilling his entire 'Zamir' and then went out and fabricated a convoluted tale to molest what the servant now wishes to protect. LMAO.

[Bigmo]

Thank you, Bigmo, for your post regarding why the Taliban do what they do.

I will be happy to explain each of those hadiths further, especially those that talk about education (and we need to remember that hadiths never DEFINE education, and so the Taliban, like all other people, decide to define what it means to be educated, how one should obtain education, what IS "good" education, what is "ilm," what is education for women and men, and so on).

Most Muslims who stand against the Taliban claim that the Taliban are not following Islam, but that's when you gotta ask what Islam is then. We take hadiths and Quranic verses here and there and say, "See??? You can't kill people unless this is the case." Right - that's what the Quran might teach, but what about hadiths? And, yes, to those of us who're just calling people Pervezis and such, what's your point? Are such labels REALLY that important? Or are we implying that anyone who puts in front of you violent hadiths, or hadiths that support violence or animosity or intolerance, is a Pervezi? That's not the point. The point is: The Taliban have PERFECTLY legitimate justifications for whatEVER they do. If what they do is not directly supported by the Quran and/or hadiths, then it is implied so by a certain interpretation of the Quran/hadiths.

And, uh, such irrelevant questions are being asked of Bigmo, but I see no one discussing the hadiths he's presented. Why do we have to ask questions regarding Bigmo's beliefs? Why can't we just sit and ponder what he's presented? (Bigmo, I'm assuming you're male; if you're not, I apologize.) Why, oh WHY are we so illiterate and think that ever single person on earth MUST fit in that tiny suffocating box we've created for every single human on earth?

Anyway, so back to the topic ... can someone please get those hadiths and Quranic verses (IN CONTEXT, please!) that condemn the acts of the Taliban? That's one way to continue this discussion -- NOT by asking whether someone's an Ahmadi, a Pervezi, an ahl-e-Qurani, an ahl-e-hadithi, etc. For God's sake, free yourselves of these things, folks! And listen at last.

There is nothing called executing apostates in the Koran. The Koran gives complete and absolute freedom. Sunni clerics will tell you these verses about freedom has been abrogated. No Quranist will ever accept abrogation. Abrogation is a way to nullify Quran.

Quran gives two options for prisoners, either freedom or ransom. Sunnism adds two more, slavery or execution. Of course the ruler decides. Like the Pharoah in the Quran when the magicians bowed to Moses after seeing the miracle. Pharoah asked how they can bow to the God of Moses without his permission.

There is nothing called conquest or islamic spreading by the sword. This is added on by Sunnis when they claimed verse 9-29 abrogated the concept of defensive Jihad to an offensive Jihad. Verse 9-29 was talking about the pagans of Mecca who fought the prophet, and not anybody else. Jizya was compensation for the loss of their homes and property in Mecca. That verse never came to the people of Medina. Jizya is war compensation and not money non Muslims give to dictators. The Quran forbids prophets for seeking any compensation.

Sunnis also claim the Old and New testament are corrupted while the Quran says it came to authenticate the previous scriptures. The Quran attacked the Talmud of the Jews. Talmud is the Hadith of banu Israel. Banu Israel claim the Talmud can abroagte the Toah. jesus attacked the Talmud and said he came to authenticate the Torah. The Quran also attacked the Trinity. The Trinity was introduced by Roman pagans 3 centuries after Jesus. It has nothing to do with the Gospel.

The Quran is non sectarian and peace and freedom.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

You must admit that the Old and New Testaments are not in their original form, correct?

[Baygham]

There is nothing called executing apostates in the Koran. The Koran gives complete and absolute freedom. Sunni clerics will tell you these verses about freedom has been abrogated. No Quranist will ever accept abrogation. Abrogation is a way to nullify Quran.......................

However:

And for whatever verse we abrogate and cast into oblivion
We bring a better or the like of it;
knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything?
-- Sura 2:106

And when We exchange a verse in place of another verse --
and God knows very well what He is sending down --
they say, 'Thou art a mere forger!'
Nay, but the most of them have no knowledge.
-- Sura 16:101

Many a muslim scholars have lost their shirts in patching the holes of this connundrum. Ever heard of the knowledge of nasikh and mansukh in relation to the Quran and even Hadith (abrogating and abrogated). This is resorted to when two verses or hadith cannot be reconciled with each other. And there are many.

'pa gharreedalu stargo chukhchi mandai' what can one say.By closing your eyes like a pigeon, the problem (cat) is not going to go away.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

No verse of the Quran has been abrogated!

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

The reason why Muslims have this erroneous belief that the Holy Quran has abrogated itself is because of the word ayah which is used in verse 2:106.

ما ننسخ من اية او ننسها نات بخير منها او مثلها الم تعلم ان الله علي كل شئ قدير

But before we discuss the context of this verse and the word "ayah," let us first discuss how different translators have translated this verse and the word "ayah" in this verse. From there we can easily find our way around:

Literal: We do not erase/nullify/abolish from a sign/verse/evidence , or We make it forgotten, (except that) We come/bring with better than it, or similar/equal/alike to it. Do you not know that God (is) on every thing powerful/capable ?

Yusuf Ali: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Pickthal: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?

Arberry: And for whatever verse We abrogate or cast into oblivion, We bring a better or the like of it; knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything?

Shakir: Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

Sarwar: For whatever sign We change or eliminate or cause to recede into oblivion, We bring forth a better sign, one that is identical. Do you not know that God has power over all things?

H/K/Saheeh: We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

Malik: We do not abrogate any of Our verses of the Qur'an or cause it to be forgotten except that We substitute it with something better or similar; don't you know that Allah has full power over everything?[106]

Maulana Ali: Whatever message We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or one like it. Knowest thou not that Allah is Possessor of power over all things?

Free Minds: We do not duplicate a sign, or make it forgotten, unless We bring one which is like it or even greater. Did you not know that God is capable of all things?

Qaribullah: If We supersede any verse or cause it to be forgotten, We bring a better one or one similar. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things!

George Sale: Whatever verse we shall abrogate, or cause thee to forget, we will bring a better than it, or one like unto it. Dost thou not know that God is almighty?

JM Rodwell: Whatever verses we cancel, or cause thee to forget, we bring a better or its like. Knowest thou not that God hath power over all things?

Asad: Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar ones. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

Khalifa: When we abrogate any miracle, or cause it to be forgotten, we produce a better miracle, or at least an equal one. Do you not recognize the fact that GOD is Omnipotent?

Hilali/Khan: Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?

Sher Ali: Whatever Sign We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof. Dost thou not know that Allah has the power to do all that He wills?

Ghulam Farid: Whatever message we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that has power to do all that He wills?

QXP Shabbir Ahemd: We have not abrogated the old commands without replacing them with the everlasting Commands that are either similar or better than the previous ones. Do you not know that Allah is the Appointer of due measure for all things?

So, we can see that the word "اية" has many meanings, some of which are:

1. sign
2. message
3. verse
4. command

Taking these meanings into consideration, one has to now look deeply within the Holy Quran itself to determine how to interpret this verse.


Firstly, we have to consider what indication does this verse itself give about what it means by "ayah" then we have to see what is it hinting at.

Fortunately, our job has been made very easy. If we just focus on the verses that have come before and after this verse, i.e. 2:105 and 2:107, we can find our answer as to what Allah has abrogated, then we can also look deeper within the Holy Quran to see if our interpretation is right.

Let us first look at the preceding and the following verses:

These two verses are:

ما يود الذين كفروا من اهل الكتاب ولا المشركين ان ينزل عليكم من خير من ربكم والله يختص برحمته من يشاء والله ذو الفضل العظيم

[2:105] They who disbelieve from among the People of the Book, or from among those who associate gods with Allah, desire not that any good should be sent down to you from your Lord; but Allah chooses for His mercy whomsoever He pleases; and Allah is of exceeding bounty.

الم تعلم ان الله له ملك السماوات والارض وما لكم من دون الله من ولي ولا نصير

[2:107] Dost thou not know that the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs to Allah alone? And there is no protector or helper for you beside Allah.

From the looks of it, verse 2:106 is referring to the Torah and the Gospel. It looks like out of their jealousies the People of the Book, did not want to have anything overwriting their scriptures. They wanted to have supremacy. However, what they failed to realize is that Allah had sent them their scriptures also, and He has the full right to bring something better one in their lieu.

From the verse itself, we can infer that the previous scriptures contained two types of commandments which needed to be abrogated:

1. Due to changed conditions and the Universality of the new Revelation
2. Eternal truths which needed resuscitation so that people might be reminded of the forgotten truth

It therefore makes perfect logical sense that certain portions of the previous scriptures had to be abrogated in order to make room for a non-contradicting teaching, and to restore original truths which were either extrapolated or lost its luster due to being mixed with interpolations.

So, the Holy Quran has brought new verses in order to bring better ones, also by this it has re-introduced missing portions by similar ones; also, the Holy Quran has abrogated all previous scriptures because of the changed condition of mankind. Therefore, the verses that are contained in the Holy Quran are not only better than any previous scriptures, they are also meant to withstand time itself, i.e. be in tact forever. In other words, an inferior teaching with a limited scope must give way to a superior teaching with a universal teaching.

Now let us see if this interpretation is consistent with the verse itself and the rest of the Holy Quran:

The word ننسخ, "we cause to abrogate," refers to the word بخير, " with one better," and the word ننسها, "We cause to be forgotten," refers to the word مثلها, "the like thereof." All of this means that when God abrogates a certain thing He brings in its place a better one, and when He causes a teaching to be forgotten He simply resuscitates it.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Now let us focus on the rest of the Holy Quran to see if we are consistent with our interpretation:

First off, Allah, the All-Mighty, makes a clear declaration that the Holy Quran is a book where each verse is consistent and supports other verses. In other words, if one link in the chain breaks that whole of it would break. This is the miracle of the Holy Quran. This is a litmus test to test whether the Holy Quran is flawed and contradictions, or is it a book which is fully supported by its own verses; hence without contradictions and flaws.

Allah says in the Holy Quran:

الله نزل احسن الحديث كتابا متشابها مثاني تقشعر منه جلود الذين يخشون ربهم ثم تلين جلودهم وقلوبهم الي ذكر الله ذلك هدي الله يهدي به من يشاء ومن يضلل الله فما له من هاد

[39:23] Allah has sent down the best Message in the form of a Book, whose verses are mutually supporting and repeated in diverse forms at which do creep the skins of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts soften to the remembrance of Allah. Such is the guidance of Allah; He guides therewith whom He pleases. And he whom Allah adjudges astray — he shall have no guide.

ذلك الكتاب لا ريب فيه هدي للمتقين

[2:2] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous,

وما كان هذا القران ان يفتري من دون الله ولكن تصديق الذي بين يديه وتفصيل الكتاب لا ريب فيه من رب العالمين

[10:37] And this Qur’an is not such as might be devised by any one except Allah. On the contrary, it fulfils that which is before it and is an exposition of the Law of God. There is no doubt about it. It is from the Lord of the worlds.

I can quote many more verses, however, this should suffice to prove that our interpretation is consistent and the Holy Quran is a Perfect Book and that its verses are consistent with each other. Because Allah had revealed previous Scriptures, and, therefore, He is allowed to abrogate previous Scriptures with Quranic verses and He is also allowed to bring back previous forgotten verses back with the revelation of the Holy Quran.

This is the beauty of the Holy Quran, it truly is a guidance for those who wish to seek the Ultimates Truths.

[Baygham]

No verse of the Quran has been abrogated!

Dear Misnomer momin. You dont count. I have repeatedly told you to kindly leave my posts alone, for I have no desire to chat you up. Please go back to the quote below whenever a desire errupts to answer one of my posts, or better still, have the thing printed and put as a screen saver and re-read it each time such an itch occurs. I even license it for use in case such itch arises in response to any other post regarding Islam here or on other islamic websites. I will charge no royalty fee, consider it my gift.

For you I have only one answer, each time you ask me something I will answer the same.

LOL the princess's honor is being protected by her molester.

What has the world come too, now I have to plead innocence to a servant of a late ninteenth century punjabi mullah who in turn sold for 10 shilling his entire 'Zamir' to the brits and then went out and fabricated a convoluted tale to molest what the servant now wishes to protect. LMAO.