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**Bigmo** · 08-08-2010, 07:59 AM

Quran gives complete freedom

16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper."

11:28 He (Noah) said "O my people! think over it! If I act upon a clear direction from my Lord who has bestowed on me from Himself the Merciful talent of seeing the right way, a way which you cannot see for yourself, does it follow that we can force you to take the right path when you definitely decline to take it?�

17:53-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

21:107-109 (O Prophet?) 'We have not sent you except to be a mercy to all mankind:" Declare, "Verily, what is revealed to me is this, your God is the only One God, so is it not up to you to bow down to Him?' But if they turn away then say, "I have delivered the Truth in a manner clear to one and all, and I know not whether the promised hour is near or far."

22:67 To every people have We appointed ceremonial rites which they observe; therefore, let them not wrangle over this matter with you, but bid them to turn to your Lord. You indeed are rightly guided. But if they still dispute you in this matter, `God best knows what you do."

24.54. Say: "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

48:28 He it is Who has sent forth His Messenger with the Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to the end that tie make it prevail over every religion, and none can bear witness to the Truth as God does.

36:16 17 (Three Messengers to their people) Said, "Our Sustainer knows that we have indeed been sent unto you, but we are not bound to more than clearly deliver the Message entrusted to us.'

39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

64:12 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner."

10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand

28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities!

"So have We appointed for every Prophet an enemy - devils of men and Jinns; who inspire each other with seductive, deceptive speech which leads astray; but had thy Lord willed they would not have done so. So leave them with what they do devise. And let the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter listen to it; and let them be well pleased with it; and let them gain what they can gain!" 6:113-114

"And when you see those who meddle with Our revelations, withdraw from them until they meddle with another topic. And if the devil causes you to forget, sit not, after the remembrance, with the congregation of wrongdoers. 6:68

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing

Complete and absolute freedom unparalleled in human literature.

**شمله ور خراساني** · 08-08-2010, 11:40 AM

Dear Parvezi, can I ask you a a few questions?

**Bigmo** · 08-08-2010, 01:51 PM

Go ahead. But first what is a Parvezi?

**MeemWawMeemNoon** · 08-08-2010, 04:10 PM

Bigmo,

do you declare the kalima tayyeba?

**Bigmo** · 08-09-2010, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by MeemWawMeemNoon View Post

Bigmo,

do you declare the kalima tayyeba?

Whats that?

**Baygham** · 08-09-2010, 03:21 PM

Dear Koranist,
which version of Quran and whose translation. What about the ones Usman burnt, or the one recently found in Yemen. And why Quran, why not encyclopedia britanica.

**MeemWawMeemNoon** · 08-09-2010, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Bigmo View Post

Whats that?

How do you attest to being a Muslim?

**Baygham** · 08-09-2010, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Timbaktu

There are no "versions" of the Qura'n, The manuscripts found in yemen in ancient sana mosque adds more credibility to the authenticity of the Qur'an.

The one uthman (ra) burnt was exactly the same as the modern Qur'an. he only standardized it and add zer o zabar and those rules so it can be read in the Quraish accent and the newly conquered land which weren't arabs don't get confused.

Usman did not add zer o zabar, they are later inventions.

And why burn if they are the exact same thing and then go on and make copies of only the one version that his daughter happen to keep. Does it make any sense.

**Baygham** · 08-09-2010, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Timbaktu

As I said before the words were exactly the same but the dialects were different. Qur'an was revealed in the Quraish dialect so uthman (ra) made sure only the Quraish dialect was preserved.

Arabia at the time had more than one dialect just like we have in pashto today. kandahari dialect is different than pakhawri. if the Quran was revealed in pekhawar then it would make sense to preserve it that form.

God could not arrange for a more universal delivery system. (Even my iphone has support for over a hundred languages) He had to make a hunderd different versions and had the king (usman) choose the one favoring his status. good work god. (Note to God: Next time around have the damn thing beta tested on mars or some other hell hole away from us, before release)

So not only does translation pose a problem, even the arabian dialects have problems with interpretation and meaning and only the language spoken by one family in a tiny place are priviledged to have spoken Gods own language which he speaks on a day to day basis in 'aarsh mahroof'. For he liked that dialect zillions years ago before it came about in existence.

I am running in circles here. Need some help guys, help me out. Any 'pervaizi' here to guide my lost soul.

(No qadiani's please, I have an innate allergy to them.)

**Bigmo** · 08-09-2010, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Baygham View Post

Usman did not add zer o zabar, they are later inventions.

And why burn if they are the exact same thing and then go on and make copies of only the one version that his daughter happen to keep. Does it make any sense.

There is no eveidence of this story. There has never been another version of the Quran that was found. The text is the same as we have today. Even the most die hard orientalist like Patricia Crone who questioned the Quranic Muhammedan timeline now accepts that the Quran we have today is what the prophet left behind.

**Baygham** · 08-10-2010, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Bigmo View Post

There is no eveidence of this story. There has never been another version of the Quran that was found. The text is the same as we have today. Even the most die hard orientalist like Patricia Crone who questioned the Quranic Muhammedan timeline now accepts that the Quran we have today is what the prophet left behind.

who the hell is patricia crone, I should get impressed because she sounds western (what slave mentality is that) and should measure my faith with that. I can forward the wisdom of Ziarat Gul kaka, from my village who disagrees. And I know him very well. He had a mild case of cretinism from iodine deficiency but is otherwise quite sound.

We disagree, I dont accept your proof. To me its a contradictory tale of arab folklore. Just like the old and new testament and the other ancient tales of despair and glory, including greek tragedies and githa, tora etc.

In fact anything published prior to 1960 has very little to offer to enhance wisdom, as we move forward as a human race. Quran included.

**Bigmo** · 08-10-2010, 01:46 AM

Originally posted by Baygham View Post

who the hell is patricia crone, I should get impressed because she sounds western (what slave mentality is that) and should measure my faith with that. I can forward the wisdom of Ziarat Gul kaka, from my village who disagrees. And I know him very well. He had a mild case of cretinism from iodine deficiency but is otherwise quite sound.

We disagree, I dont accept your proof. To me its a contradictory tale of arab folklore. Just like the old and new testament and the other ancient tales of despair and glory, including greek tragedies and githa, tora etc.

In fact anything published prior to 1960 has very little to offer to enhance wisdom, as we move forward as a human race. Quran included.

Well Patricia is still living so her ideas are after 1960. I quoted her because she is an Islamic historian and was at one time the biggest Quran skeptic(in terms of its historicity) there was. But even now she admits that the evidence is becoming over whelming that the Quran we have is what there ever was. What you are saying is similar to what the Arab and other pagans said long before 1960.

So who is using outdated arguments?

26.154 "Thou art no more than a mortal like us: then bring us a Sign, if thou tellest the truth!"

They say: "Why is not an angel sent down to him?" If We did send down an angel, the matter would be settled at once, and no respite would be granted them. Al-An'am, Verse 8

Al-An'am, Verse 37 They say: "Why is not a Sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "Allah hath certainly power to send down a Sign: but most of them understand not."

Al-An'am, Verse 111 Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's Plan. But most of them ignore (the truth).

Yunus, Verse 20 They say: "Why is not a Sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The unseen is only for Allah (to know). Then wait ye: I too will wait with you."

Hud, Verse 12 Perchance thou mayest (feel the inclination) to give up a part of what is revealed unto thee, and thy heart feeleth straitened lest they say, "Why is not a treasure sent down unto him, or why does not an angel come down with him?" But thou art there only to warn! It is Allah that arrangeth all affairs!.

Ar-Ra'd> Verse 38 We did send Messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children: and it was never the part of a Messenger to bring a Sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book (revealed).

Al-Israa> Verse 93 "Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we can read." Say: "Glory to my Lord! am I aught but a man, a Messenger?"
Surah Al-Furqan> Verse 7-8

And they say: "What sort of a Messenger is this, who eats foods, and walks through the streets? Why has not an angel been sent down to him to give admonition with him? "Or (why) has not a treasure been bestowed on him, or why has he (not) a garden for enjoyment? "The wicked say: "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched."

20.133. They say: "Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?" Has not a Clear Sign come to them of all that was in the former Books of revelation?

5.110.Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.

26.30-35 (Moses) said: "Even if I showed you something clear (and) convincing?" Pharaoh) said: "Show it then, if thou tellest the truth!" So (Moses) threw his rod, and behold, it was a serpent, plain (for all to see)! And he drew out his hand, and behold, it was white to all beholders! (Pharaoh) said to the Chiefs around him: "This is indeed a sorcerer well- versed: "His plan is to get you out of your land by his sorcery; then what is it ye counsel?"

Same words and same hearts. Lomg before 1960.

**Baygham** · 08-10-2010, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Jasmine

The wisdom and knowledge in the Quran is unmatchable to any other book Baygham.

Its just a book, and to you it may be all there ever was and will be, but that is not with everyone.

It may be everything, except one thing. It can never be a unifying agent amongst a group of peaple. Forget the whole book, no too person's agree on a single translation of a single ayat or for that matter a single word. This lead to myraid interpretation and more diviciveness. An ample example is seen on this very forum. I chanllange anyone that they can forward one ayat that the whole muslim community agrees on in its interpretation and translation.

We have Koranist interpretation, Wahabi interpretation, sunni, shia, western scholars, native speakers of one dialect vs another, peaple burning whole quran versions (like Usman) if it does not fit their political agendas, peaple having hordes of mullahs on payrol to get a favorable interpretation (ISI in pakistan, the saudi government, the british raj amongst many more, even met an isreali recently who studied arabic and koran in school to keep in touch).

Peaple have found similar patterns of guidance from looking at stars (astrology), or lines on hand (palmistry), even bumps on a head can tell you everything (phrenology). In any complex system that can have a million different ways of looking at it,Look long enough and you will find anything that your brain wishes to see, usually for your benefit, and if you can convince someone else than more power and exploitation potential.

So comming back to Ziarut Gull baba, when he rants" keerr peeerr, oollaa, poollla, ziarut gull boolla", you can do a PHD thesis on just that one. Tell a koranist friend that it is an Ayat and they will find all the worlds wisdom in it too.

**Baygham** · 08-10-2010, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Timbaktu

Failed attempt at sarcasm. Sarcasm is regarded as the lowest form of humour and you fail miserably at it. tsk tsk

I am sure if the language in which Qur'an was revealed was pashto, you wouldn't have much problem with it. .......................

Well pekhawri or kandahari pashto, I am sure I would still be relying on the same number of payed pundits to decifer (and interpret to my advantage) its contradictory annecdotes and benefit from exploitation of emotionally needy populace.

And Gengiz khan had the largest empire in the world, means squadoosh nothing, his intellectual contribution in 21 century is close to 0. Only a few years ago a third of the mongolian population changed their names to his. Not for intellecutual but emotional reasons. And that is the same with your bedoiun hero.

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Collapse of Sunni/Shia and rise of Quranist

Collapse of Sunni/Shia and rise of Quranist

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