Al-Ghazali: The Alchemist of Happiness

[Badlun]

Had Afghanistan stayed under Najib, all we need to do is look at those moronic istan states on the other side with their strongmen and personality cult leaders to see what it would have become. It would have continued along the way to a totalitarian state where instead of Talib (who at least represented the agrarian country side and rural masses) the pseudo-effete effeminate "we are advanced" types would have been doing mass oppression the way we see going on now in those istan states.

All we see in our discussion is your denial that something totally foreign was injected into the life line and governance of Afghanistan... Bolshevikism and Marxist socialism had no way oxygen to survive except in some rare circles. Yet somehow you think all of us in Kandahar, Helmand, and all those provinces would have just accepted these people like Muhammad Saleh Zeary calling our way of life, our religion, our heritage as backwards and then trying to govern Afghans?

No, the inoculant foreign body/germ was that and some other foolish outside ideologies and the immune response was radicalization and war.

The other stans are still better than Afghanistan. At least they do not have civil wars and rule or influence of religious bandits like Taliban in Afghanistan. Hundreds of people are not killed in markets by suicide bombers. Turkmenistan may be more dictatorial, still with out religious bigots but we have Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan too. They are developing at a very high speed. Secularism rule there and very soon they will be part of EU or at least near EU standards. Afghanistan under Najeeb would be far far better than the people succeeded him, the marauding hordes.

Do you think this agrarian and pastoral life style should be our fate for ever and in this 21st century we may not go for change? Many other countries also had agrarian economy and society but they adopted industrialization and mechanization and now they are developed. Do not force this agrarian rural standards on poor Afghans for ever. The best is market economy and democracy and the worst is Taliban. Socialism is still better than Taliban. Taliban should not be representatives of poor rural Pashtuns.

Rural Pashtuns are the most secular people by separating hujra and jumat . Hujra with tang takor, music, rabab, mangey, sitar, politics, social gatherings, community affairs , Jergas,gham khadi, kaley kalweeghi, dance while mosque for religious rituals. Taliban want to mix these two but Pashtunwali is not Islam and vice versa.

[Herat]

Im afraid he is mostly correct Badlun, barring Kazakhstan, the Central Asian states are not in any way models for emulation, no more than the Taliban as far as Im concerned. He is incorrect tough on his assertion of the Taliban representing the rural masses of the entire failed state of Afghanistan, they only represent the Pashtun rural group and have about as much right to rule the entire country as the non-Pashtun warlords do, ergo the only solution for the failed state of Afghanistan is partition. You are correct in your insinuation that the Taliban will never ever be able to produce anything that can be called civilization without losing their very essence but nevertheless they do represent their segment of the population and there is nothing you or I can do about that.

[Badlun]

Im afraid he is mostly correct Badlun, barring Kazakhstan, the Central Asian states are not in any way models for emulation, no more than the Taliban as far as Im concerned. He is incorrect tough on his assertion of the Taliban representing the rural masses of the entire failed state of Afghanistan, they only represent the Pashtun rural group and have about as much right to rule the entire country as the non-Pashtun warlords do, ergo the only solution for the failed state of Afghanistan is partition. You are correct in your insinuation that the Taliban will never ever be able to produce anything that can be called civilization without losing their very essence but nevertheless they do represent their segment of the population and there is nothing you or I can do about that.

I have been to many of these central Asian states. Believe me they are far better than Afghanistan as religion is limited to mosque only. There do exist few extremist groups in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan but their influence is very limited. Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan are more western than others and that is why they are progressing a lot. I never said that they are models for emulation but they are better than the Afghanistan of Taliban. For me the models can be EU, ASEAN, US, Canada, G8 or even BRICS but not Central Asian states.

You are right that unfortunately Taliban became representatives of rural Pashtuns after 1979. But Pashtunwali is thousands years old, even it is older than Islam itself. Islam or Taliban were not always the representatives of Pashtuns. Secularism and nationalism are inbuilt in the body of Pashtunwali. Pashtuns by nature are egalitarian, broadminded, secular, moderate and humane but this was the Wahabism or Salafism whIch made them so much radical. The solution is taking Pashtuns back to Pashtunwali not Islamism.

[Khostai]

You missed what I was saying, I was talking about the hardcore fighters and who they were originally. I am pointing out that these Talibs and other young boys being raised in the status of war (which is an extreme environment) are themselves the victims of it. They lose their innocence (not just in Afghanistan but all across the world).

Regarding what you are alleging, even the less hardcore fighters like Abdul Haq, Ameen Arsala, Amin Wardak and others had no regrets whatsoever about taking out Najib and fighting the Soviets so you need to produce your proof for the comment or provide a reference, otherwise its just an opinion of how people feel or a passed on familial opinion. Their issue was with the duplicitous nature of Pakistan in the aftermath.

Had Afghanistan stayed under Najib, all we need to do is look at those moronic istan states on the other side with their strongmen and personality cult leaders to see what it would have become. It would have continued along the way to a totalitarian state where instead of Talib (who at least represented the agrarian country side and rural masses) the pseudo-effete effeminate "we are advanced" types would have been doing mass oppression the way we see going on now in those istan states.

All we see in our discussion is your denial that something totally foreign was injected into the life line and governance of Afghanistan... Bolshevikism and Marxist socialism had no way oxygen to survive except in some rare circles. Yet somehow you think all of us in Kandahar, Helmand, and all those provinces would have just accepted these people like Muhammad Saleh Zeary calling our way of life, our religion, our heritage as backwards and then trying to govern Afghans?

No, the inoculant foreign body/germ was that and some other foolish outside ideologies and the immune response was radicalization and war.

I am talking about general people who rebeld and joined those people not there leaders, ofcourse thos people will never regret it why should they. I visit a lot of Afghan parties or gathering where I see difrent people from difrent ideologies, how diffrent they all can be, I always here the former mudjhahid claiming to be betrayed and that the fight was for nothing and that it was better if they never had risen up. I also hear from former communist and halq that they should not have pushed those reforms so soon. But anyhow all of them agree that a peacefull solution would have been better.

Taliban is not the representation of rural Pashtuns. Rural pashtun love music and dance, they love modern televisions and films, they like to be connected with the world, Taliban is a total foreign and alien entity in Afghanistan. Nobody likes them. The only who are pro taliban are the so called fundi. My family is rural Pashtun and when I compare them to taliban there is diffrence between haven and earth.

And like Badlun said the standart of living even in poor Tajikistan is 10x better that what it is in Afghanistan. I would love to see Afghanistan being a secular state, change could have gradually happend and more democratization would appear.

[Khostai]

I have been to many of these central Asian states. Believe me they are far better than Afghanistan as religion is limited to mosque only. There do exist few extremist groups in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan but their influence is very limited. Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan are more western than others and that is why they are progressing a lot. I never said that they are models for emulation but they are better than the Afghanistan of Taliban. For me the models can be EU, ASEAN, US, Canada, G8 or even BRICS but not Central Asian states.

You are right that unfortunately Taliban became representatives of rural Pashtuns after 1979. But Pashtunwali is thousands years old, even it is older than Islam itself. Islam or Taliban were not always the representatives of Pashtuns. Secularism and nationalism are inbuilt in the body of Pashtunwali. Pashtuns by nature are egalitarian, broadminded, secular, moderate and humane but this was the Wahabism or Salafism whIch made them so much radical. The solution is taking Pashtuns back to Pashtunwali not Islamism.

Badlun I don't know if you have visited Afghanistan in recent years but even rural Pashtuns have changed, in Khost a lot of people like to see there dochters go to school, many live Khost to go to KAbul when there daughter wants to go to univercity becuase KAbul has better uni than Khost. There are still some hard liners but even they now send there daughters to madrassa to at least learn basic wrighting and reading and learn Quran.

Taliban style ideology can be hardly found or compared to the rural Pashtun population, thats I why I am so sick and tired of this whole wrong information that demonizes rural Pashtun who everyone thinks that are stuck in the dark ages and want no change. Most of rural Pashtun popuation of Afghanistan is not diffrent from the other ethnicities, ofcourse people like Herat would disagree, but what does he know I bet he didnt even visit Afghanistan in his entire life and is basing his entire few on internet and TV, the same fro Barakzai.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The other stans are still better than Afghanistan. At least they do not have civil wars and rule or influence of religious bandits like Taliban in Afghanistan. Hundreds of people are not killed in markets by suicide bombers. Turkmenistan may be more dictatorial, still with out religious bigots but we have Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan too. They are developing at a very high speed. Secularism rule there and very soon they will be part of EU or at least near EU standards. Afghanistan under Najeeb would be far far better than the people succeeded him, the marauding hordes.

Do you think this agrarian and pastoral life style should be our fate for ever and in this 21st century we may not go for change? Many other countries also had agrarian economy and society but they adopted industrialization and mechanization and now they are developed. Do not force this agrarian rural standards on poor Afghans for ever. The best is market economy and democracy and the worst is Taliban. Socialism is still better than Taliban. Taliban should not be representatives of poor rural Pashtuns.

Rural Pashtuns are the most secular people by separating hujra and jumat . Hujra with tang takor, music, rabab, mangey, sitar, politics, social gatherings, community affairs , Jergas,gham khadi, kaley kalweeghi, dance while mosque for religious rituals. Taliban want to mix these two but Pashtunwali is not Islam and vice versa.

For a militant secularist prone to violence, they may be a haven of sorts.

http://www.ibtimes.com/tajikistans-t...urgency-729876

For nearly the rest of the world, it remains utterly retarded.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I am talking about general people who rebeld and joined those people not there leaders, ofcourse thos people will never regret it why should they. I visit a lot of Afghan parties or gathering where I see difrent people from difrent ideologies, how diffrent they all can be, I always here the former mudjhahid claiming to be betrayed and that the fight was for nothing and that it was better if they never had risen up.

Well I also mix with my people and can tell you that I have yet to hear Kandaharis say that Najib was in the right or that fighting against the government's oppression when that sob was sending that loony toon Ismat Muslim around Helmand and Kandahar to kill people was "the wrong thing to do."

And even if the folks you know say they regret XYZ it means nothing since humans react to action and one can hardly blame human beings to responding to the stupidity of Khalq and Parcham and their policies.


I also hear from former communist and halq that they should not have pushed those reforms so soon.

A little too late, that is like walking into someone's house, punching them in the face and then saying "Maybe I should not have walked into his house and started a fight."

But anyhow all of them agree that a peacefull solution would have been better.

Of course peace is always better, but there is foreign inoculant and there is also perpetrator and victim. The Afghan people were responding as victims to the idiot perpetrators.

Taliban is not the representation of rural Pashtuns. Rural pashtun love music and dance,

Well, AbusSalaam Zaeef writes:

Nevertheless, once the last Soviet soldier had left Kandahar in August

1988, we celebrated without a worry in the world.

Mullah Marjan

sang in joy using the top of an old stove as a drum while the rest of usdanced the

Atan. We still hoped that the mujahedeen would share the

power among themselves and establish an Islamic government, so we

could honour our dead, feed our orphans and support our widows.

But the new government held on to power.

page 49
http://ia600808.us.archive.org/10/it...TheTaliban.pdf

So maybe they too liked to dance and sing but war conditions harden and change people and who imposed the war?

they love modern televisions and films, they like to be connected with the world, Taliban is a total foreign and alien entity in Afghanistan.

Completely and utterly incorrect. Each and every member of the Shura was raised and born in and around Helmand/Kandahar. Who am I going to trust, your opinion or the fact that even Muhammad Saleh Zeary of Kandahar, born there in 1938, and former Najib official, and described here in detail on page 74:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RUS...nation&f=false

"He (Mohammad Saleh Zeary) paused searching for a modern image to describe the social conservatism that most Pashtuns accept without thinking: 'The Taliban are wild people. The place I was bought up in long before the Taliban, was a kind of volunteer Taliban society

Nobody likes them.

Kawun Kakar is a government official and his father is a famous Afghan historian. He has been more involved in Afghanistan in all these eras then you and he begs to differ:

http://institute-for-afghan-studies....ntro_kakar.htm

“In reality, the traditional way of life in villages has changed little by Taliban's rule. The situation of Afghans in the countryside controlled by the Taliban has improved because of increased peace and security, giving them the opportunity to rebuild after two decades of war. But this security comes at a cost. Forced recruitment of young men to fight the ever bloody war of attrition against the Northern alliance has depleted the man-power from these rural centers. In the cities and urban centers, the more modern and liberal way of life conflicts sharply with that of the Taliban's social and religious values."

Regarding singing and dancing - I have had the chance to visit Afghanistan 5 times since 1992 through the current era and through the prior government. I can tell you that I went to weddings in all of these trips and that no one bothered anyone in Nawa or other locales in and around Kandahar in their wedding parties or with their general customs.


The only who are pro taliban are the so called fundi. My family is rural Pashtun and when I compare them to taliban there is diffrence between haven and earth.

Taliban are, what Saleh Zeary described above, and they were a response to the idiotic conditions imposed by your supposed prior reformers. You are basically blaming a people for responding to conditions of war imposed on them. War radicalizes people inherently. War supposedly has rules, but for the most part we all know those rules go by the wayside and societies suffer.

And like Badlun said the standart of living even in poor Tajikistan is 10x better that what it is in Afghanistan. I would love to see Afghanistan being a secular state, change could have gradually happend and more democratization would appear.

Well, then go and dig up the bones of PDPA and Khalqi and these other morons and burn them because they started a process and unleashed forces they never should have

x

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Badlun I don't know if you have visited Afghanistan in recent years but even rural Pashtuns have changed, in Khost a lot of people like to see there dochters go to school, many live Khost to go to KAbul when there daughter wants to go to univercity becuase KAbul has better uni than Khost. There are still some hard liners but even they now send there daughters to madrassa to at least learn basic wrighting and reading and learn Quran.

Taliban style ideology can be hardly found or compared to the rural Pashtun population, thats I why I am so sick and tired of this whole wrong information that demonizes rural Pashtun who everyone thinks that are stuck in the dark ages and want no change. Most of rural Pashtun popuation of Afghanistan is not diffrent from the other ethnicities, ofcourse people like Herat would disagree, but what does he know I bet he didnt even visit Afghanistan in his entire life and is basing his entire few on internet and TV, the same fro Barakzai.

Last time I went back was 2008. No one is demonizing Pashtuns. As I said, no one deserves war put on them. The Pashtun is the victim of war and war radicalizes. The perpetrator is clearly the idiot like Najib and the victim is clearly the person in the rural country side that rose up against him. And gradual change you spoke of above does not come with threats and violence and insulting someone's culture and faith the way these Pulitburo people did. When these sorts insult the heritage of a whole people, what do you expect? Roses to be bought to them? No instead others will take advantage of that concept for defensive purposes and radicalization will occur.

[Khostai]

x

Most what you posted is total bullshi.t and you know it, for your information rural Pashtuns are not only Kandaharies and Helmandies, the rest also excist and even Kandaharies are not a fan of taliban.
Funny how all of your treeps are from the 90 and non from the recent years, you are out of touch with Afghanistan like many fundies on these forum.

Taliabn=savage subhuman pice of ghual.
Mudjhahidin atrocities started before Najib and after Najib they did enough of damage, you make it sound like Najib was the start and the end of all the war.

The rest of your sources are unreliable western propaganda no more good than the Anderson that you criticise so much.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Most what you posted is total bullshi.t

Opinion is one thing; proof is another. Show me what and where the bull**** is. Is Zeary bull****ting? Is Kakar?

and you know it, for your information rural Pashtuns are not only Kandaharies and Helmandies, the rest also excist and even Kandaharies are not a fan of taliban.

This is not a sports event son. Loyalties and interests are far different than fans and not fans

Funny how all of your treeps are from the 90 and non from the recent years,

2008 is not recent?

you are out of touch with Afghanistan like many fundies on these forum.

Re-read the date of the last trip. I hardly think 6 years is a huge time gap

Taliabn=savage subhuman pice of ghual.

Militant secularists and closet Najibists are worse- just a giant gaywad on a jiggalo's leg.

Mudjhahidin atrocities started before Najib and after Najib they did enough of damage, you make it sound like Najib was the start and the end of all the war.

History shows that Karmal, Amin, and Najib were the trinity of terrorists for the Afghan people.

The rest of your sources are unreliable western propaganda no more good than the Anderson that you criticise so much.

By all means...show which ones were unreliable. The classic tactic is to accuse one of Western propaganda. Zeary and Kakar are not "Westerners".

x

[Khostai]

Nope you are not, I am convinced that you are brainwashed fundy probarly a tajik, or even worse a porki.

Your perception of reality is so twisted, I even wonder how many patients even survive your treatments. I bet you are not even a doctor, probabrly some welfare reciver.

[Khostai]

x

History have proven that your ghuals have used and abused Islam to gain power and molest people. Even now the so called holy mudjhahids who fought kafir Russian are now sucking up to the kafir USA and wants them to stay. Have some shame.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Your perception of reality is so twisted, I even wonder how many patients even survive your treatments. I bet you are not even a doctor, probabrly some welfare reciver.

Says the kid living on handouts failing nearly half his classes who tried for welfare and couldn't even garner that - so his next step was to beg to become a dancing bit-ch named Khaista Bibi. We know it right? In your neck of the woods Shaista (pretty more often for the feminine) becomes Khaista.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

History have proven that your ghuals have used and abused Islam to gain power and molest people. Even now the so called holy mudjhahids who fought kafir Russian are now sucking up to the kafir USA and wants them to stay. Have some shame.

Hmmmm.... shame... an interesting term Khaista Bibi. Since last I checked those fighting aren't begging anyone to stick around the way you do your clients the morning after - hence that emotion you feel daily is one lost on them.

[tor_khan]

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