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  • Interesting hadith

    Reading Bukhari in volume 2 released from Al Medina during down time.

    I came across this Hadith numbered 123, which reads:

    Narrated Anas: Whenever drought threatened them, Umar bin Al Khattab used to ask Al-Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib to invoke God for rain. He used to say, "O God, we used to ask our Prophet to invoke you for the rain, and You would bless us with the rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke you for the rain. O God bless us with the rain." And so it would rain.

    The translating scholar writes:
    It is of great importance to notice that it is permissible for one to request a living religious person to invoke God on his behalf but if you ask God through a dead or absent person then it is not allowed. It is absolutely forbidden to request anything from the dead.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    The ban on the shamanistic vestigial practice in some cultures, of turning to graves to request favors or ask for intervention appears to be have a very sound basis on this authentic tradition.

    It is important to see that the companions did not turn to the Prophet's grave and ask the most esteemed figure in the religion to intervene, even though he had passed.

    Furthermore, the hadith defines Islamic etiquette in a superb way.

    Notice the fact that Umar Bin Al Khattab, despite asking Al-Abbas to pray, also prays directly to God on his own too.

    This is a fantastic hadith because it clarifies that every Muslim has a direct capability, without the need for an intercessor, to pray to God (hence why Umar prays), but that the learned ones and scholarly ones also be approached for advice and their prayers.
    Last edited by BarakzaiAbdali; 11-17-2013, 08:59 PM.
    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

  • #2
    The mushrikeen disagree. They claim that "saints" are not dead. Therefor asking them is permissible.
    Originally posted by Firdousi
    Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

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    • #3
      What is life? Is it only the body or also mind and soul? If soul is also part of life then soul never dies thus no one is dead. Only body disappears not the soul even not the waves of thought.

      Soul of a great man, a saint, a friend of Allah never dies. Martyrs/shaheeds never die . We see them in dreams and we can remain in touch with them by parapsychological means like telepathy, mesmerism, meditation etc.

      I believe in matter but also in noumena , metaphysical realities, abstract and occult world, the world of non-matter, celestial existence and non-material or immaterial entities.

      Comment


      • #4
        never got this praying to the dead thing anyways, sounds really unIslamic, even a beginner muslim would tell you that

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Badlun View Post
          What is life? Is it only the body or also mind and soul? If soul is also part of life then soul never dies thus no one is dead. Only body disappears not the soul even not the waves of thought.

          Soul of a great man, a saint, a friend of Allah never dies. Martyrs/shaheeds never die . We see them in dreams and we can remain in touch with them by parapsychological means like telepathy, mesmerism, meditation etc.

          I believe in matter but also in noumena , metaphysical realities, abstract and occult world, the world of non-matter, celestial existence and non-material or immaterial entities.
          I would beg to differ. God, in the Book, says that all things besides him, including Jesus, will taste death. In regard to the martyrdom concept, Al-Kitab tells the believers not to call them dead but goes on to discuss the metaphysical aspects of this entry into eternity.

          The spiritual boundaries imposed in the physical world ought not to be transgressed with metaphysics.

          Basically, God set the parameters and we abide them.

          What I appreciate about the life of the Prophet and the information we have regarding it is that when pouring over the corpus of the earliest hadith work, the earliest contemporary work, or even the accepted orthodox and even unaccepted unorthodox work of the early era (e.g. Ibn Abi Dawud) we have no evidences for the Prophet demonstrating non evidence based behaviors in practice today.

          Let us take the example of how he dealt with the passing of Khadija Bibi, his beloved. We never see him talking to her, praying to her grave, or even conversing with her. Rather, we see a practical example and the healthiest example of grieving. The only follow up stories we have regarding this specific relationship is from Ayesha who discusses how she felt that Khadija was the one person she was the most jealous of in the sense that she had captured his heart forever. The other incident is when he paused and reflected in grief when he saw her necklace in the market.

          Or, if we are to talk of saints, he saw the vision of those that died fighting the Roman legion. He saw Jafar rising in a throne... but once again that was it.

          I believe in evidence based practice and parameters set by the written word and its contemporaneous supplements.
          "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

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          • #6
            What is your take on soul? Does it die?

            I am also impressed on many great deeds of the Prophet but I do separate his role as a prophet and as as Arab leader. What he felt on seeing the necklace of his beloved is his personal act and not a religious act and thus not a sunna. The way he prayed is a religious act and a sunna.

            Your hadith on rain/istisqa is a narration of his companions not his own words. I do not why such kind od narrations are called hadiths?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Badlun View Post
              What is your take on soul? Does it die?

              I am also impressed on many great deeds of the Prophet but I do separate his role as a prophet and as as Arab leader. What he felt on seeing the necklace of his beloved is his personal act and not a religious act and thus not a sunna. The way he prayed is a religious act and a sunna.

              Your hadith on rain/istisqa is a narration of his companions not his own words. I do not why such kind od narrations are called hadiths?
              I think Bukhari did a great service by including such instances. In the book all the surrounding hadith detail the manner if istisqa prayer and it also provides another single example of sahaba/tabieen doing the prayer in emulation of the Prophet.

              What is nice about Bukhari taking the time to include this evidence is that it provides a sort of window into contemporary understanding.

              What I found most impressive was Bukhari's goal, even in the chapter on Jam Al Quran, of including contemporary discussions of the ahruf.

              This information, taken in tandem with other ahadith like:
              "Beware of those who preceded you and used to take the graves of their prophets and righteous men as places of worship, but you must not take graves as mosques; I forbid you to do that"

              really demonstrate the understanding contemporaries had of the Prophet's exemplar for practical application.

              I also believe it is of exceptional importance because of what I said before regarding each person's direct ability to pray to God without an intermediary.

              Umar Bin Al Khattab's wording is so exceptional and so very advanced and carefully crafted with a supreme degree of forsight and hindsight. The fact that he directly implores God leaves no room for debate regarding the standard of practice.
              "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Badlun View Post
                What is your take on soul? Does it die?

                I am also impressed on many great deeds of the Prophet but I do separate his role as a prophet and as as Arab leader. What he felt on seeing the necklace of his beloved is his personal act and not a religious act and thus not a sunna. The way he prayed is a religious act and a sunna.

                Your hadith on rain/istisqa is a narration of his companions not his own words. I do not why such kind od narrations are called hadiths?
                I am not a scholar, but an admirer of the Quran and the contemporary jurists/opinions.

                Regarding the soul, the best I understand of it is what I memorized as a youth and took literally:

                Quran 21:35: Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. to Us must ye return.

                Therefore, I assume the soul tastes death. The exact delineations and manner of that death has some sub discussion regarding what you referenced (martyrs etc). That is beyond my ken.
                "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                Comment


                • #9
                  In this verse
                  Quran 21:35: Every soul shall have a taste of death
                  the word NAFS is used which can be translated as self,every body,being or living being which imply the body or entity or living organism not ROOH or soul.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Badlun View Post
                    In this verse
                    Quran 21:35: Every soul shall have a taste of death
                    the word NAFS is used which can be translated as self,every body,being or living being which imply the body or entity or living organism not ROOH or soul.
                    Perhaps, but it seems like Pikthall, Arberry, Ali and a host of others who disagree with eachother theologically all felt the context was proper to translate as soul. Once again, not disputing your point since I lack a detailed reading on this subject. Just noting that the majority of these guys, Muslims and non Muslims alike going back to George Sale (whose translation I abhor).

                    I assume you are saying a translation you would suggest would be more akin to "All will taste death." Where a literal translation loses the sense or meaning of the original?
                    "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

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                    • #11
                      What I am sure is that Nafs is not rooh. Nafs can be translated as ALL, everybody, everyone, self etc.

                      Actually you being a doctor I wanted to know that is there any provision of the concept of soul in medical sciences or science as such. Science only recognizes body and mind but not soul.

                      Is soul a purely religious/mystical concept or there can be some scientific explanation of it as vital force or something else.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Badlun View Post
                        What I am sure is that Nafs is not rooh. Nafs can be translated as ALL, everybody, everyone, self etc.

                        Actually you being a doctor I wanted to know that is there any provision of the concept of soul in medical sciences or science as such. Science only recognizes body and mind but not soul.

                        Is soul a purely religious/mystical concept or there can be some scientific explanation of it as vital force or something else.
                        In modern medicine there is really no discussion of the soul except in the context of end of life care where we are urged to let families pursue their own manner of comforting the departed.
                        "2 crackheads don't become any better or stronger by sharing the same crack pipe." - Greatest PF quote

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Regarding the ruh (soul), a verse of the Qur'an tells us quite clearly about the human limitation in comprehending its reality.

                          "And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, 'The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little.'" [17:85]

                          That being said, there are certain details which are given in the sacred texts without which our understanding of the soul would be even further limited. (Experiences/kashf/ilham etc. is a separate issue which cannot be used as Shar`i evidence in case someone was wondering.)

                          Here is a scholarly article which explains the orthodox Sunni position regarding the lives of the Prophets (`alayhim us-salam) after passing from this world and also touches upon lives of other than them.

                          On the Life of the Prophets in their Blessed Graves | Deoband.org
                          The Beloved Messenger of Allah, Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, so beautifully advised his nation when he said:

                          “Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day let him speak good or remain silent.” [Bukhari and Muslim]

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Shkapar_Dorwaza View Post
                            Regarding the ruh (soul), a verse of the Qur'an tells us quite clearly about the human limitation in comprehending its reality.

                            "And they ask you, [O Muhammad], about the soul. Say, 'The soul is of the affair of my Lord. And mankind have not been given of knowledge except a little.'" [17:85]

                            That being said, there are certain details which are given in the sacred texts without which our understanding of the soul would be even further limited. (Experiences/kashf/ilham etc. is a separate issue which cannot be used as Shar`i evidence in case someone was wondering.)

                            Here is a scholarly article which explains the orthodox Sunni position regarding the lives of the Prophets (`alayhim us-salam) after passing from this world and also touches upon lives of other than them.

                            On the Life of the Prophets in their Blessed Graves | Deoband.org

                            The artilce does not explain whether people burried under the sand respond to calls for assistance or not.

                            There are conflicting views regarding the ability to hear while in the grave. However, there is no evidence from the Sunnah suggesting the dead can receive requests for help or intercede on behalf of people.

                            This is what is the core of this debate. Can the dead help you or not?
                            Originally posted by Firdousi
                            Never talk with Afghans about politics. All their political knowledge is limited to conspiracy theories, political demonization and contradictions. No logic, no reason.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Shamlawar Khurasani View Post
                              The artilce does not explain whether people burried under the sand respond to calls for assistance or not.

                              There are conflicting views regarding the ability to hear while in the grave. However, there is no evidence from the Sunnah suggesting the dead can receive requests for help or intercede on behalf of people.

                              This is what is the core of this debate. Can the dead help you or not?
                              I see. Perhaps the following may shed some light on the issue.

                              Istighathah | Deoband.org
                              The Beloved Messenger of Allah, Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, so beautifully advised his nation when he said:

                              “Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day let him speak good or remain silent.” [Bukhari and Muslim]

                              Comment

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