religon and not a religon

[khushal]

because he needs a customer and God knows you would kill for meat. furthermore, you are probably a coward who refrains from confronting jewish butchers about his personal beliefs and views on them upon stepping in to their shop. the alternative will be having common sense and we all know how much you lack in that department.

that's a stupid statement. What your saying is that people that don't attack each other are cowards. Your getting dumber by the day DZJ.

[Kochagasht]

not really. the invisible hand is natural law and natural laws are gods laws.

primitive man also believed that everything has a spirit

you must know you are bringing in connotations that are completely unrelated

[Kochagasht]

Theism(religion) and atheism are God or no God centric. The invisible hand of the market is related to economy and market forces not to the super- natural or metaphysical world of God,No God or religion.

There are many other invisible things in life like mind, emotions, love, fear, hate, soul which can be dealt in sciences or pseudo sciences like, psychology, para Psychology, telepathy, spiritual sciences, Scientology etc but these are not related to theism or atheism.

Logic can be a discipline which is more meant for evidence or no evidence as logic is the science or branch of philosophy dealing with valid reasoning or valid argumentation not atheism. Atheism is against all dogma but related to God not to other aspects of life.

tell me something, what do you believe and then prove it

[DaZahroJaam.]

that's a stupid statement. What your saying is that people that don't attack each other are cowards. Your getting dumber by the day DZJ.

there are normal people out there and then there are special individuals like you. i already explained the alternative, brother in eeslaaam.

[Khostai]

That's not a good reason since jews in Iran(a theocracy) live in peace with their neighbors not to mention jews were refuged to Ottman territory during their persecution in Europe. Also religion minorities were persiecuted in secular Germany and other secular states throughout history.
Making a relation with secularism and religious tolerance is weak, very weak.

Persuctuion in Europe was done by a religious states that were inspired by Chatolic relegion...
The only time secular Germany persecutated was in time of dictatorship, that has nothing to do with being a secular state. The other times when
the prosecuted jews where when they were also a religious state.

Jews in Iran are discriminated against.

And why are you baying meat from jews? Isn't that Haram?

[khushal]

primitive man also believed that everything has a spirit

you must know you are bringing in connotations that are completely unrelated

What does primitive man have to do with the discussion unless your saying that adam smith was primitive. Primitive man believed in such things because that is how they explained things with the evidence they had at the time. Aristotle is considered a giant in human history although he was wrong in many of his theories but they were good with the evidence he had at the time.

It does not sound like you know what the invisible hand is since you claimed that the financial disaster is evidence that it was all hoopla. The financial disaster had more to do with banks monopolizing and leveraging money that never existed and the guarantee that the public sector(government) would step in for a bail out since the public have always stepped in during past financial disasters.
America is not a free market economy. American Corporations pay the Gov to interfere in the market to make rules that benefit such corporations. They monopolize small countries to keep competition away by threatening them and mafia style extortion methods. The US gov contributes a considerable amount to the GDP of the US which is another form of monopolization.

Adam Smith was preaching a small gov that should not interfere with the markets but should keep people in check when they do try to monopolize and ensure competition. Monopolization is what free market economic principles are against because they could take the society hostage.

The "Invisible hand" describes "natural" free market forces that bring balance to the market. Balance benefits the society as a whole and monopolies benefit groups within the society at the expense of the society.

[Badlun]

tell me something, what do you believe and then prove it

This is my main premise that if I believe(in religion) then I do not need to prove it. We prove things in science, law, philosophy etc but not in religion. Religion is based on revelation and we believe whatever the prophet or Imam say. How can I believe in unseen, metaphysical, spiritual, celestial, abstract things like God, angels, hell, paradise etc. No proofs in religion. Just obey, accept, agree, submit. Islam means submission.

Mysticism or Sufism is a little different where you have direct knowledge, subjective experiences, intuition, dreams, meditation and enlightenment. Every one has to go through such experiences or believe in others who share such experiences.

[khushal]

Persuctuion in Europe was done by a religious states that were inspired by Chatolic relegion...
The only time secular Germany persecutated was in time of dictatorship, that has nothing to do with being a secular state. The other times when
the prosecuted jews where when they were also a religious state.

Jews in Iran are discriminated against.

And why are you baying meat from jews? Isn't that Haram?

hahahaha, your saying that dictators are not secular. I think you should look up the definition of secular. Napolean was secular and many Jews and other minorities left Europe for Ottoman territory who were not secular.

You need to read history. You will see that the vast majorities of human butchers have been seculars. You would find that there is no relation between secularism and tolerance, progression. These are myths.

[khushal]

there are normal people out there and then there are special individuals like you. i already explained the alternative, brother in eeslaaam.

in other words, your too stupid to explain anything.

[Kochagasht]

Aristotle is considered a giant in human history although he was wrong in many of his theories but they were good with the evidence he had at the time.

such as?

It does not sound like you know what the invisible hand is since you claimed that the financial disaster is evidence that it was all hoopla.

it is a very arguable and ambiguous concept but do explain

[Kochagasht]

This is my main premise that if I believe(in religion) then I do not need to prove it. We prove things in science, law, philosophy etc but not in religion. Religion is based on revelation and we believe whatever the prophet or Imam say. How can I believe in unseen, metaphysical, spiritual, celestial, abstract things like God, angels, hell, paradise etc. No proofs in religion. Just obey, accept, agree, submit. Islam means submission.

Mysticism or Sufism is a little different where you have direct knowledge, subjective experiences, intuition, dreams, meditation and enlightenment. Every one has to go through such experiences or believe in others who share such experiences.

many years ago i read a book with the title A History of Heaven, or something similar. i cannot really remember much about it except the Christian view of heaven has changed over time and reflects what is going on in society with all religions including sufism

[Badlun]

many years ago i read a book with the title A History of Heaven, or something similar. i cannot really remember much about it except the Christian view of heaven has changed over time and reflects what is going on in society with all religions including sufism

You are right. The concept of heavens and the life after death is almost the same in Islam and Christianity and many other religions. Sufism is different because they want the heaven in this life which is also the approach of Osho. Christianity is almost the same plus Muhammad and unqualified monotheism and different rituals.

sharab me na sxal da janat pa tama
pa zankadan ke ye rata wey che dozakh ta ba zey

[Kochagasht]

You are right. The concept of heavens and the life after death is almost the same in Islam and Christianity and many other religions. Sufism is different because they want the heaven in this life which is also the approach of Osho. Christianity is almost the same plus Muhammad and unqualified monotheism and different rituals.

sharab me na sxal da janat pa tama
pa zankadan ke ye rata wey che dozakh ta ba zey

as for the idea of enlightenment being applied to sufism, i think you will find it to be a factor of opinion

sufism generally refers to a collection of fundamental beliefs and ethics which is followed by a number of people, a supernatural or creator is not necessarily a root cause. philosophy also uses deals with a collection of beliefs used for daily guidance and practices. on some levels, the two are pretty much intertwined. i know some people may be reluctant to categorize sufism under the notoriety of religion, but it is relevant to both