Islamic Ruling regarding Insulting of Companions of Prophet Muhammad

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Typical son of mut'ah strategy. Making vague claims from obscure sources.

[کیش]

Smh your embarrassing yourself by not bringing anything to the table less cursing like an idol worshiper.


Is a "son of mutah strategy" a strategy which provides accurate claims? While you do nothing but curse?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Son of mut'ah i have no time refuting entire books written by kufar page by page.

Be specific you mushrik zindeeq. Make specific claims and provide your sources like academics do.

You son of mutah bragged about your education, make a claim like an educated person.

[کیش]

I did make a claim like an educated person. You can't debunk my claims because I speak the truth. All you do is curse and curse.

Tell me how did Hussein and Hassan die. Did Muawiya break his truce and give the caliph to his son, Yazid?

Did not Uthman give his relatives High government positions?

Are you denying the battle of Al-Jamal and Siffin occurred, in the least?

[کیش]

Did not Zubayr, Talha instigate Aisha to raise an army and attack Ali in Kufa?

Do you even know who Zubayr and Talha were?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Son of mut'ah for every socalled truth you must provide your source from the original books in proper academic style referencing. Otherwise i will not answer you zindeeq.

[کیش]

Lol, stop ducking and hiding. I did provide sources, in fact everything I wrote is the historical truth and not made up opinion like yours.

You best go on and answer my questions. In fact, even a light read will back up everything I have said.

God knows you have no knowledge of the topic on hand, and is left speechless that is why all you have is blind curses like a loser.

[کیش]

I did make a claim like an educated person. You can't debunk my claims because I speak the truth. All you do is curse and curse.

Tell me how did Hussein and Hassan die. Did Muawiya break his truce and give the caliph to his son, Yazid?

Did not Uthman give his relatives High government positions?

Are you denying the battle of Al-Jamal and Siffin occurred, in the least?

You can't even answer these questions because when you do search for it it will lead you to what I have said.

Your sources:

What I don't know === son of mutah; rafidi Shia, insert curse word here

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

If you know your biological fathers name then post proper academic reference for each and every one of your accusations. If you dont know the name of your biological father then continue to be a tupical rafidi who farts on his keyboard.

[DaZahroJaam.]

the amount of islam happening in this thread is overwhelming.

[کیش]

the amount of islam happening in this thread is overwhelming.

What do you mean? All I have been doing is posting clear facts, while Mr. Shamlawar is cursing at me. Have I insulted him once?

Im trying to have an educational discussion on this topic, but it's heavily one sided.

[کیش]

I'm not the one getting his sources online. That's you.

My sources are all the books about the era. You do not even know about the battle of Al-Jamal and the battle of Siffan. You haven't heard of the Saqifa conference for crying out loud.

Debunk what I said about Muawiya and the Ummayads. How was Hassan and Hussein killed?

Some books written by non-bias Sunni's:

After the Prophet by Leslie Hazleton

The heirs of Muhammad by Barnaby Rogerson

Nahjul Balagha: sermons and letters by Ali Ibn Abi Talib

The Origins and early development of Shia Islam by S.H.M Jafri (written by a non-Shia scholar)

Among the few

What is this four books I have posted. Your the one who said you don't have time reading them. But you have time to curse me and now my father.

For the nth time how did the Prophet's grandchildren die? Can you atleast answer this one easy question without cursing?

Here's a quick and easy read if you don't got time to read a book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Siffin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Fitna

Excerpt of Al-Jamal

Talhah, Al-Zubayr, and Muhammad's wife Aisha bint Abu Bakr gathered in Mecca and then went to Basra. They encamped close to Basra, and the subsequent heated exchange and protests during the parley turned from words to blows. When Ali asked them for obedience and a pledge of allegiance. Ali tried to negotiate with Aisha, considering her the venerated wife of Muhammad, but she refused. Zubair was Ali's and Muhammad's cousin and did not want people to fight. He said to Ali "What a tragedy that the Muslims who had acquired the strength of a rock are going to be smashed by colliding with one another".[37] After talking with Ali before the Battle of the Camel, Zubair, did not want to fight and left the battlefield, and was killed in an adjoining valley. A man named Amr ibn Jarmouz had followed Zubair and murdered him while he performed Salat.[40] Talhah also left. On seeing this Marwan shot Talhah with a poisoned arrow. In the confusion one night the Battle of the Camel started in 656. Aisha was approached by her brother Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr, who was ‘Ali's commander. Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr was the son of Abu Bakr, the adopted son of ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, and the great-grandfather of Ja‘far al-Sadiq. Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr was raised by Ali alongside Hasan and Husein. ‘Ali, with respect, sent her back to Medina, escorted by her brother Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr. Hassan also accompanied her part of the way. ‘Ali and Aisha were said to have become friends after the battle. Aisha then started teaching in Medina.[41]
Marwan and some of Alis supporters who later became the Kawarij caused a lot of the trouble. Marwan was arrested but he later asks Hassan and Hussein for assistance and was released.[38] Marwan later became an Umayyad ruler, as did his son.
Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr was later killed by the Umayyads in Egypt. His son Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr was then raised and taught by Aisha. Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr's daughter Farwah bint al-Qasim was the mother of Ja'far al-Sadiq. After this battle Marwan and Aisha did not get on.

[کیش]

Excerpt of Karbala

Umar ibn Sa'ad ordered a man to dismount and to finish the job. Khowali ibn Yazid al-Asbahiy preceded the man but became afraid and did not do it. Then Shimr ibn Dhiljawshan dismounted his horse and cut Hussein's throat with his sword whilst Hussein was prostrating to God. Just before his throat was about to be cut, Hussein asked Shimr ibn Dhiljawshan, "Have you done your prayers today?" and this shocked Shimr because he did not expect anyone in the position of Hussein to ask such a question. Then Imam Hussain asked for the permission to do Namaz-e-Asr (because it was the time of 3rd prayer). Shimir gave the permission to say the prayers and Imam Hussain started prayer and when he went into Sajda. Lanti Shimr ibn Dhiljawshan betrayed and said: "I swear by God that I am cutting your head while I know that you are grandson of the messenger of Allah and the best of the people by father and mother" he cut head of Hussein ibn Ali with his sword and raised the head .[59] Then ibn Sa'ad's men looted all the valuables from Hussein's body.

[کیش]

Excerpt of Siffin

Muawiya wanted a ceasefire. Muawiya made his mercenaries tie copies of The Holy Qur'an to their lances and flags, demanding for the decision of arbitration.Tabari wrote that, "The defeat stared Muawiya in the face. Amr bin al-A'as, however, had a trick up his sleeve for this emergency, and it was the raising of the Koran aloft on spear-heads, and announcing, "Brethren, this Book of God alone will decide between you and us."[14] It will be recalled that even before the commencement of the battle, Ali had invited Muawiya by sending his three men to turn to the Koran for a decision, but his offer was declined by telling, "Go away from here, only the sword will decide between us.".[8] And now they sought the intercession of the Holy Koran to escape the unpleasant consequences of an ignominious defeat. At this Ali came forward and expostulated his soldiers, saying, "It is an infamous stratagem and a nefarious device of Amr and Muawiya to cloak their defeat. Beware of the trick which they are playing. You should fight to a finish."[citation needed] But Ali's men having seen all the bloodshed since marching into Syria refused to fight fellow Muslims. Ali, with a great expectation of victory in sight, was therefore impelled to call a retreat.
Ali's supporters during the battle of Siffin were called ahel-i Iraq, the people of Iraq or according to the Shia Shiat'i Ali, while his opponents became known as ahel-i Sham, the people of Syria or according to the Shia Shiat'i Uthman and Shiat'i Muawiya. But Ali called them al-kasitun (those who act wrong), a word derived from the Holy Koran that:"And as for the deviators, they shall be for the hell, a fuel.",[15] wherein the word al-kasitun means the fuel of hell-fire.


Ali's reflection on his conflict with Muawiyah bin Abu Sufyan was thus:
By Allah, Mu`awiyah is not more cunning than I am, but he deceives and commits evil deeds. Had I not been hateful of deceit I would have been the most cunning of all men. But (the fact is that) every deceit is a sin and every sin is disobedience (of Allah), and every deceitful person will have a banner by which he will be recognised on the Day of Judgement.[20]

[BarakzaiAbdali]

What is this four books I have posted. Your the one who said you don't have time reading them. But you have time to curse me and now my father.

For the nth time how did the Prophet's grandchildren die? Can you atleast answer this one easy question without cursing?

Here's a quick and easy read if you don't got time to read a book Battle of Siffin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
First Fitna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Excerpt of Al-Jamal

Talhah, Al-Zubayr, and Muhammad's wife Aisha bint Abu Bakr gathered in Mecca and then went to Basra. They encamped close to Basra, and the subsequent heated exchange and protests during the parley turned from words to blows. When Ali asked them for obedience and a pledge of allegiance. Ali tried to negotiate with Aisha, considering her the venerated wife of Muhammad, but she refused. Zubair was Ali's and Muhammad's cousin and did not want people to fight. He said to Ali "What a tragedy that the Muslims who had acquired the strength of a rock are going to be smashed by colliding with one another".[37] After talking with Ali before the Battle of the Camel, Zubair, did not want to fight and left the battlefield, and was killed in an adjoining valley. A man named Amr ibn Jarmouz had followed Zubair and murdered him while he performed Salat.[40] Talhah also left. On seeing this Marwan shot Talhah with a poisoned arrow. In the confusion one night the Battle of the Camel started in 656. Aisha was approached by her brother Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr, who was ‘Ali's commander. Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr was the son of Abu Bakr, the adopted son of ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, and the great-grandfather of Ja‘far al-Sadiq. Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr was raised by Ali alongside Hasan and Husein. ‘Ali, with respect, sent her back to Medina, escorted by her brother Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr. Hassan also accompanied her part of the way. ‘Ali and Aisha were said to have become friends after the battle. Aisha then started teaching in Medina.[41]
Marwan and some of Alis supporters who later became the Kawarij caused a lot of the trouble. Marwan was arrested but he later asks Hassan and Hussein for assistance and was released.[38] Marwan later became an Umayyad ruler, as did his son.
Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr was later killed by the Umayyads in Egypt. His son Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr was then raised and taught by Aisha. Qasim ibn Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr's daughter Farwah bint al-Qasim was the mother of Ja'far al-Sadiq. After this battle Marwan and Aisha did not get on.

I think you need to provide the primary references. Also, there are a number of problems with your claims.

1. You are presenting the Shiites as an under dog group that was standing up against injustice etc and attempting to help the "rightful heir." To focus the accusation on Uthman, or usurping, and on Uthman alone ignores the history of the original oath to Abu Bakr that occurred. That event is agreed upon in all the sources.

2. I am personally under the impression that most shiites like most sunnis are not extreme in their beliefs and probably don't grasp them in totality - so I am hesitant to paint them with one brush stroke. My own notion on this conflict is that arguing over the specifics of something that occurred 1400 years ago is a tough sell because the Eastern lands are under constant threat and invasion and there is more in common then there is apart. Folks should live and let live and focus on maintaining independence and autonomy.

That being said, shiite literature has been consistently shown to be unreliable. Recent works in Arabica Journal on some of the oldest Quran fragments discuss how some of the most vehement shiite claims against the Uthmanic codex for instance were put to rest easily and soundly.

Or take for instance the forging of Surah Al Nurayn and Surah Al Waliyah by extremist shiite elements.

Also, in the very source you provide Hassan and Hussein also give Marwan a break.

Or take your stated claim regarding Muhammad (S) banning Marwan from Medina. A cursory look at Marwan's age at the time of the Prophet's passing makes this exceedingly unlikely: He would have been but 9 years old.

So I also agree that we need to have a more scientific approach to this.

What I prefer is that you take each of these claims and provide the primary documentary reference instead of a secondary reference listing the primaries.

It should be easy to do. So for instance, regarding the Marwan claim, you could list that and then provide the documentary reference.

These are important matters because I think Uthman like Ali and all of these great leaders deserve justice in how we speak about them.

They were awe inspiring and great because they came from a simple tribalistic but egalitarian background and helped lay the foundations for an Islamic Empire that would find constancy through the times. Each of them contributed and of course they had their own disagreements and human failings as all great leaders do.

That however doesnt mean that Uthman's lasting achievements and greatness should be swept under a rug without a respectful and proper discussion.

I remember when I visited Kandahar once. I was laying on a cot and I had a Quran in hand. A simple man came up to me and sternly told me, "Sit up, this is not just any book you are reading!"

That was an important lesson in life coming from a zamindar. And I think this lesson extends to these people as well. I do not think we should be cavalier about throwing around accusations about Uthman when the main inheritance we have from his reign (textus receptus of the Quran) shows his forsight and administrative prowess in preserving the cornerstone of the faith by God's leave.

For that reason - I would respectfully ask that you number your claims

e.g

1) Marwan claim
1A) Full reference reproduced

2) etc etc.

Also, to paint this as if Muhammad (S) bought about a pseudo revolution of sorts in Mecca where the old gaurd elite like Abu Sufyan were vanquished is not really fair either since various ummayad family members were in Medina with the early Muslims (family was divided against family). And quiet frankly, Muhammad (S) himself welcomed Sufyan into the fold.

If it were the goal of the Ummayads to usurp and reverse Muhammad (S)'s gains what would have stopped them from reneging on the religion as a whole? What would have fomented some of the early Ummayads from also making distinct contributions to the Islamic faith and continuing to spread it abroad?

The practicalities do not really support the shiite claims and rather paint the picture of shiites not so much as Ali's down trodden army, but rather as a group that post humuously venerated Ali for their own purposes as well. This purpose was in some vein no different than the pursuit of power that the Ummayad's and Abbassid's took.

Two easy to cite examples of how the same adoption of shiite principles to simply be the "other" can be seen in post safawid Iran/forced resurgance of persian nationalism and massacre of sunni Iranians in that era - or the adoption of the shiite faith by Hazara faithful.