girl brides in yemen and saudi arabia.

[Dreamer]

Let's also avoid name calling please now let's stick to the facts that verse allows pre menstrural females to marry since to have a Idda period they must have been married back this up with Hadith where Aisha married prophet before her menses at 6 and had sex with him at 9 it is clear islam allows child marriages not to mention other companions like Umer who married alis daughter when she too was a minor

[tor_khan]

I beg to differ.... I shall now quote from the Quran... In surah Talaq it talks about the waiting periods or Iddah for women before remarriage... It lists the various types of waiting periods
I reproduce it here but feel free to look it up its quran 65:4
"And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease." Please see the Bold underlined part of the text... this refers to women/girls who have not even had menses... only a pre-pubertal girl will not have had any... i.e a girl before puberty thereby showing girls even before puberty may be married though I believe that the different madhabs are not in agreement about sexual relations with her "husband"

There is also the example of the Prophet in marrying a 6 year old girl and consummating it when she was 9...

^That rhetoric is tired.

What a Prophet of Islam is and isn't allowed to do in a tribal society that was overwhelmingly patriarchal and dominated by men will never look hip/glam and equal ops when viewed through a 'modern' equal ops lens.

But when isolating historical details like this, it is important to consider what we think we know them within the context that it happened. Firstly, eastern culture, and that too, an eastern culture of 1400 years ago cannot be the same as 21st century western culture. Six-year old wife, marriage consummated at 9, 9 year old wife, marriage consummated at 16. Who knows exactly - all we have is multiple versions of a narrative that has been passed down. There is a lot of disagreement even with what we know. You can accept, reject, speculate, lead off into conjecture etc., but so far noone that I know of, has produced a birth or a marriage certificate with dates of any of the Prophet's alliances. Either way, it becomes less important when you consider that this type of marriage was not unusual in an Arabian society where multiple dependencies/tribal alliances meant that at the time noone would not have batted an eyelid.

Today we may think differently because we value individuality a lot more. We are educated differently and our social pressures are different. It is harder to justify marriages decided by protective fathers but equally in parts of the world, the definition of 'marriage' is undergoing change that means one type of marriage cannot be recognised elsewhere. Polygamy is still illegal under some jurisdictions and not viewed as the ideal model whereas you can 'marry' someone of the same gender if you wait for long enough for the lawmakers to decide upon this. I should add, that even the latter is not really about equality, so much as economics.

[Manzareh]

The Hadith is very clear... Why don't you accept it??? I'm more interested in her "consenting" rather than her age since the Quran allows child marriages... If she herself didn't know what was going on how could she consent? Also those scholars aka the madhab imams agreed on the permissability of child marriages ... Again the Quran was in a clear language to a simple ppl not theologians

I accept the hadith in the format which it is explained by our Islamic leaders and scholars, not in the format of a kuffar on an internet forum. If it was such a gross act then the people would have highlighted it at the time because they used anything possible against the Prophet pbuh to humiliate him, this was not one of them.

What are you talking about the Quran was in a clear language to simple people, the Quran was and still is written in the most complex Arabic ever written, if the Quran was so simple and easy to understand there wouldnt be Hadiths needed or the Prophets guidence at the time to let people know what to derive from it and what the verses actually mean, again your lack of education in the principles of Islam coming out.

[Dreamer]

^That rhetoric is tired.

What a Prophet of Islam is and isn't allowed to do in a tribal society that was overwhelmingly patriarchal and dominated by men will never look hip/glam and equal ops when viewed through a 'modern' equal ops lens.

But when isolating historical details like this, it is important to consider what we think we know them within the context that it happened. Firstly, eastern culture, and that too, an eastern culture of 1400 years ago cannot be the same as 21st century western culture. Six-year old wife, marriage consummated at 9, 9 year old wife, marriage consummated at 16. Who knows exactly - all we have is multiple versions of a narrative that has been passed down. There is a lot of disagreement even with what we know. You can accept, reject, speculate, lead off into conjecture etc., but so far noone that I know of, has produced a birth or a marriage certificate with dates of any of the Prophet's alliances. Either way, it becomes less important when you consider that this type of marriage was not unusual in an Arabian society where multiple dependencies/tribal alliances meant that at the time noone would not have batted an eyelid.

Today we may think differently because we value individuality a lot more. We are educated differently and our social pressures are different. It is harder to justify marriages decided by protective fathers but equally in parts of the world, the definition of 'marriage' is undergoing change that means one type of marriage cannot be recognised elsewhere. Polygamy is still illegal under some jurisdictions and not viewed as the ideal model whereas you can 'marry' someone of the same gender if you wait for long enough for the lawmakers to decide upon this. I should add, that even the latter is not really about equality, so much as economics.

sorry all sources agree on her age... again im not that bothered about her age (thats sick in itself) the quran in 65:4 agrees on child marriages... Im more perplexed into how she could consent to something when she had no idea what was going on... dont forget sunnah is how a muslim should base their life that includes issues on marriage so if it was ok for prophet to marry a kiddy then its ok for today since if its not banned its halal... all the madhabs agree...

[Dreamer]

I accept the hadith in the format which it is explained by our Islamic leaders and scholars, not in the format of a kuffar on an internet forum. If it was such a gross act then the people would have highlighted it at the time because they used anything possible against the Prophet pbuh to humiliate him, this was not one of them.

What are you talking about the Quran was in a clear language to simple people, the Quran was and still is written in the most complex Arabic ever written, if the Quran was so simple and easy to understand there wouldnt be Hadiths needed or the Prophets guidence at the time to let people know what to derive from it and what the verses actually mean, again your lack of education in the principles of Islam coming out.

so what does 65:4 mean? please explain if Im wrong Ill admit to that... that you now are ashamed of your own book says a lot for your beliefs!!!!!

[Dreamer]

oh and Id rather be a kuffa or a demon than a kiddy fiddler

“We have already sent down to you verses making things clear (ayatinmubayyinatin) , an illustration from (the story of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear (Allah)- 24:34


please also see

“A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book. (alkitabi almubeenu)” [12:1]

“These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.(alkitabialmubeeni) ” [26:2]

“These are verses of the Qur’an,-a book that makes (things) clear; (kitabin mubeenin)” [27:1]

“These are Verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.(alkitabialmubeeni) ” [28:2]

Please explain 65:4 thats all I ask... hadith such as Aisha and her marriage I think are clear examples of child marriages... the madhabs have also ruled on its permissability

while your at it please explain how its ok to rape slaves or perhaps your in denial about "those whom your right hand possess"

a shame that your scholars aka the sunni imams agree in child marriages or perhaps you are a higher theologian than them... your understanding is irrelevant... the quran says you can marry pre-pubertals the prophet married a 6 yr old... you dont have a leg to stand on

also love how you cant explain how aisha "consented" when she didnt even know what was going on!!!! love it and u ask why ppl leave islam!

also what about raping slaves :D its so easy to trash your beliefs...

Sex with slaves or rather the Rape of Slaves since the slave has no say in it (they dont have to be married so premarital sex is allowed with this group)
"Marriage with children"
all excuses for some men to get their "leg over" and get their jollies because they are that horny ....

Thats Islam

[tor_khan]

oh and Id rather be a kuffa or a demon than a kiddy fiddler

You do not automatically qualify for the higher moral ground by suggesting that by opting for 'kuffar' you are exempt from perversions. Sure, you should have the privacy to deal with your own lapses in the faith, but what is clear is that your logic is deeply flawed and this pretty much disqualifies the merit of what else you may have to say on this topic.

sorry all sources agree on her age... again im not that bothered about her age (thats sick in itself) the quran in 65:4 agrees on child marriages... Im more perplexed into how she could consent to something when she had no idea what was going on... dont forget sunnah is how a muslim should base their life that includes issues on marriage so if it was ok for prophet to marry a kiddy then its ok for today since if its not banned its halal... all the madhabs agree...

Your understanding of 65:4 is clearly different to mine. The verse in this Surah deals with the divorce/wait period of women, not children.

a shame that your scholars aka the sunni imams agree in child marriages or perhaps you are a higher theologian than them... your understanding is irrelevant... the quran says you can marry pre-pubertals the prophet married a 6 yr old... you dont have a leg to stand on

also love how you cant explain how aisha "consented" when she didnt even know what was going on!!!! love it and u ask why ppl leave islam!

also what about raping slaves :D its so easy to trash your beliefs...

On the whole, it doesn't bother much what people personally believe in. People are free to dissect received wisdom and search for answers. I am not however, going to offer to share your burden/crisis in faith. I'll deal with my own gaps. For me, research of Islam becomes most relevant when I have searched for answers to my own questions.

What I can comment on, is people going into meltdown on a public forum by sensationalising their posting with a series of one-liners.

[Dreamer]

I dont have a crisis of faith dude... when did I call you love? looool are you for real??? now answer the points or accept that your beliefs are sick and twisted... they should put a sign by nurseries... beware muslim about lmao... now I know you cant answer... you know you cant answer so just pipe down Your religion believes its ok to marry kids and rape slaves ... :D

One liners ??? hardly ... rather topics u cant answer... so u have to run away and hide blind faith lol

If you cant explain 65:4 or address the issue or "those whom your right hand possess" or how aisha consented to something she had no idea about then I suggest you dont post .... "asking the scholars" is not a valid post... hugs and kisses

[tor_khan]

I took the liberty of merging the posts where you posted in succession. You will not see the one-liners now, except in my version of the edit history.

I gave up blind faith in people years back. There isn't a particular scholar, movie star or Internet Troll that I care about. Rather, the reverse - it takes a lot of convincing for me to take much notice.

You disagree with with a verse. I get it. My life doesn't change. I still have to get up in the morning, showered and go to work. All I said is that I wouldn't follow your crisis in faith and buy the rhetoric. I am getting rather bored of this if only because you want me to scrutinize something to give you the satisfaction of a hit. I have neither the energy, nor the inclination to give you that, frankly.

There's not much more to say on this. If you think I am a going to defend a position of piety that I am not sure that I live up to, then prepare to be disappointed once again. I'd much rather listen to a song, go for a jog around the block, check my emails or read a piece of poetry.