Sufism, non Muslim Sufism, Secular Sufism, Sufism as spiritualism and mysticism

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Please be honest with your own self. If you what is sufism then you must know that you cant understand it by mere reading books of sufism. I mentioned the name of Kashful Mahjoob that I have read this book. I said nothing else about the book but you in your own imagination supposed that I agree with all the contents of the book. Reading is one thing and believing in that material is another. I read your posts but it does not mean I also agree with that.

I never said I fully underatand what it is by just reading books; but by reading books you can definitely understand some stuff; like ESSENTIAL facts, fundamentals etc. And most importantly you can understand what Sufism IS NOT by reading these books. What Sufism is, and its depths of course requires a Shaikh and direct spiritual guidance/practice; but if you read my post you'll see that I mentioned this point already that even the BOOKS stresses this concept. Even in Maktubat Rabbani, Shaikh Ahmad Sirhindi says spiriutal guidance and practice are crucial in Sufism; but he also differentiates between real Sufis and false Sufis

But all of your statements; your ideas and beliefs contradict the ESSENTIAL facts about Sufism and Sufi practice. the Sufi Shayukh from ALL different schools of Tasawwuf are in unanimous agreement that someone who contradicts these essentials is not Sufi no matter how much they say they are Sufi. Kashful Mahjub calls people who contradict the fundamentals of Sufism as FAKE Sufis or Pseueod-Sufism.

You are a follower of Pseudo-Sufism; not genuine and authentic Sufism.

So Rumi was saying This verse that I quoted to demonstrate to people that WITHOUT Being a Muslim and without following Islam; one can never be a Sufi and that anyone who says otherwise is a FRAUD. That's what this verse ephasizes.

Yes Rumi is popular in America; but the reason is because some translators TAKE certain verses which they translate it to sound more appealing to the American audience. Americans who are traditionally very materialistic and driven by worldly desires due to their culture need siome sort of lofty justification. So when Rumi has verses of "wine" they think that he means REAL Wine, so they go to have Wine Parties hahahhaha. But Rumi is talking about a symbolic wine. That's why Shari'ah is important in Sufism to differentiate the two.

When Rumi says that Sufism is universal he means that ISLAM is universal; that ANYONE can become a Muslim and any Muslim can become a Sufi; but they have to follow Islam specifically or else it's useless. Sufism is not just being Spiritual but Spiritually Enliightened, and for that only Islam can provide that reality in Sufism.

Just like you were saying to Yasmeen that we have to use Sufism as a term to UNITE against corrupt forces; the Sufis are saying we have to UNITE under Islam to repel against False Sufism.

The term is tazkiya nafs not killing nafs. You can clean your self but can remain proud of something.

Actually if you study the root word of Tazkiyah, zakawah means PURGING ir REMOVING, like removing Rust from a piece of metal; The Nafs are the rust; so actually it DOES MEAN killing the Nafs; But it is killing the old Nafs and replacing it with the True Nafs. The True Nafs cannot have pride in anything

If you were a Sufi then remember that Before the Sufi can reach enlightenment ('irfan) he must attain FANA, Fana in Arabic means "Extinction" and this means EXTINCTIOn of the Nafs, This means elminating worldly things like pride.

A Sufi isn't just a normal person He is "Insanil Kamil" the perfected man, That's why someone who says anything about pride is not a Suf.

I have read some books of Muslim Sufis including Maktoobat e Rabbani and I am a Muslim Sufi. My point is that I do not restrict sufism only to Muslims.

Well then by saying this ....then you're not a Sufi; simple this is the Consensus of all the Genuine Sufis that have written books on the subject. It's a Basic rule of Sufism.

On Arabic or Pashto originally we have few books written by Arabs or Pashtuns but majority of the good books are written by the orientalists.

This is false; I can list Hundreds of books in Arabic grammar by Muslims for 1500 years, written long before any orientalist; all orientalists rely on those books

Now Pashto is another story since Pashto has a very recent literary history

A sufi need not to shun the world. This is not the era of asceticism or rihbanyat. A sufi may have material wealth and can be a sufi. A sufi can be nationalist or secular or non believer in a particular dogma. This is what I want to explain here that sufi is not some one celestial but any one can be a sufi if he or she wants and observes few basic personality features like be spiritual in approach not always looking for material gains.

Kashful Mahjub tells us that anyone who thinks these types of things is not a Sufi. A Sufi is supposed to only be apart of the world AS MUCH AS needed to guide others and for sustenance. Nothing more. Material Wealth is shunned by Sufis.

Can you please prove from Quran or an authentic hadith that the term shariat exists in Islam? This is a later day innovation and is not a pillar of Islam. Islam has five pillars and code of ethics. Where come Shariat in this categorization.

I can , but it has no point; the CONCEPT is there and that's what matters; Just like you said it's not the word Sufi that matters but the CONCEPT; Same with Shari'ah!

[faye]

this is a great rumi quote...

"Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it."

[Badlun]

I agree that like any other discipline there are levels and categories in sufism like
The Levels of the Nafs
1. Nafsi Ammara -The Evil Commanding Self
2.Nafsi Lawwama – The Blaming Self
3.Nafsi Mulhima – The Inspired Self
4.Nafsi Mutmainna – The Secure Self
5.Nafsi Radiyya – The Content Self
6.Nafsi Mardiyya – The Gratified Self
7. Nafsi Safiyya -The Complete Self

The Devotional Stage. It reflects the spiritual and even social events that occur in the Sufis life as he first starts to worship God seriously.

2-: The Ascetic Stage. Renunciation with Mystical practices and their results on the person mark this stage. At this point the Sufi has decided to pursue God/Allah /or our beloved on a personal level above that of the usual Mosque-attending Muslim. Most Sufis still attend the Mosque just as much or more than any other Muslim, but the Sufi in this stage takes his devotion to another level of personal relationship through self-sacrifice. This stage ends in “joy” as the final attainment. This is a joy on a higher and more personal level then the “compassion” that marks the end of the last stage.

3-: The Mystic Stage-In this stage the Sufi has achieved the humility and renunciation that is the primary aim of The Ascetic Stage, and can now begin “Seeking” (station 31) for Allah internally. The Spiritual stations that comprise this stage all have to do with the mystical experiences on some level or another for a Sufi pursuing God through serious and diligent Mystical practice.

4-: The Realization Stage. This is the fourth and final stage (That I perceive in a general scope) of the 100 stations. The stations that comprise this Stage all deal with the final mystical attainments and dark-nights of the Soul that occur before that final Union with God.

B) The 7 Substances of ‘Ala al-Dawla and the 6 Centers

The 7 substances of ‘Ala al-Dawla were employed by the Kubrawi school of Sufism. They were used to aid in meditation and Dhikr and are very similar in nature to the 7 pranas of the Hindus. Each substance emanated from a separate part of the 7-fold body in Sufism, and was learned to be contacted and used in meditation for deepening realization. The substances were linked to a part of the body, a class of person, a prophet and a color.
First there is the Qalab, this substance originates with the Physical body and its level of consciousness is that of the Barbarian. It is represented by the Prophet Adam due to his being the first man, and to a grayish color.

Second is the Nafs, which emanates from the Etheric body. Its level of consciousness is represented by the Infidel. Aside from the usual Islamic concept of an Infidel, you could simply look at it as anyone who does not acknowledge a supreme God, regardless of name. The Prophet is Noah and its color is blue.

Third is the Qalb, which emanates from Astral Body. Its level of consciousness is represented by the Muslim (Arabic for “one who submits”). Its Prophet is Abraham as its color is red.

Fourth is the Sirr, which emanates from the mental body. Its level of consciousness is someone who has complete faith in God. Its Prophet is Moses and color is white.

Fifth is the Ruh, which emanates from the Lower Trinity of the Heavenly Body (the Neshamah of the Kabbalah). Its consciousness is the saint, its prophet David and its color is Yellow.

Sixth is the Khafi, which emanates from the second of Trinity heaven bodies (The Yechidah of the Kabbalah). Its consciousness is that of a Prophet, its prophet is Jesus, and its color is black.

Finally the 7th is the Haqq, which emanates from the spark of God inherent in the soul (called the Chiah by the Kabbalah). Its type of consciousness is that of Mohammad, its prophet is Mohammad and its color is green.

Aside from this Sufi school system of spiritual energies of the body, the Naqshbandi school created a scheme employing 6 of those substances and linking them to certain subtle energy centers on the body. The Nafs is below the navel, the Sirr is in the cardiac plexus, the Khafi is in the Cavernous Plexus, the Akhfa (replaces Haqq) is at the top of the head near the Pineal Gland, the Qalb is two fingers beneath the left breast and the Ruh is two fingers below the right breast. While slightly different than the chakra system of the Hindus, it is very likely that it still had an effect on this scheme’s development among the Sufis simply because like Dhikr, it was developed after the invasions into India when Indian culture was mixing into Muslim culture. Still, almost all mystical systems around the world have originated a chakra-like scheme on their own, so I can’t short-cut the Sufis of their creative genius. If you meditate enough, its almost impossible to avoid stumbling across at least one or two of the Chakras even if you are totally ignorant of their existence.

C) The Planes of Nazul and Uruj (Astral Planes)

In Sufism, the doctrine of Involution and Evolution is expressed in the terms of Nazul and Uruj. Nazul is the process of Involution by which Allah descends to man, i.e. the process of his manifestation from an unknowable reality to a knowable reality. Uruj is the process of the mystic, being the spiritual evolution of man to God. The reader acquainted with Max Heindel’s “Cosmo-Conception” will recognize a similar system of involution and evolution. In Sufism, this is a seven fold process in Nazul and a five-fold process in Uruj. The levels of Nazul and Uruj are as such:

Nazul:
1. Zat-The unmanifested
2. Ahadiat-Plane of Eternal Consciousness
3. Wahdat-Plane of Consciousness
4. Wahdaniat-Plane of Abstract Ideas
5. Arwah-The spiritual plane
6. Ajsam-The Astral Plane
7. Insan-The Physical Plane

Uruj:
1. Nasut/Mulk -Material world
2. Malakut-mental world
3. Jabarut- astral plane
4. Lahut- spiritual plane
5. Hahut- Plane of consciousness

In Sufism, the planes of Uruj correspond to the elements in this order: Ether, air, fire, water, earth. The planes of Nazul correspond to the Macrocosm in this order: Celestial, Lunar, Solar, and then the four kingdoms of Mineral, Vegetable, Animal and Man.

“Ishq Allah Mabud Allah” (God is Love, Lover, and Beloved).

But the end is

“A Church, a Temple or a Ka’ba Stone,
Quran or Bible or a Martyrs bone,
All these and more my heart can tolerate,
Since my Religion now is Love alone.”
~Abul Ala
some spiritual stations in Sufisam | somalisufisam

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Badlun you're just copying and pasting from a website. This website

The Levels of the Nafs | rifai.org | Rifai Sufi Order Web Site

and

Islamic Mysticism: Sufism


In fact you're doing right now exactly what You were saying you can't do; that is learning Sufism by Books. but what you posted here deals mainly with 'Ilm al Kuniyah which is a different topic altogether

The first website has correct information; the second site has inaccurate information and description


you are putting your own sentence in the first sentence and then attaching other peoples words after it; this is Fraud and deception which is something Osho teaches, not Sufism.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Badlun ....this is straight from the first website that you copy and pasted from; pay close attention.

What Is Sufism | rifai.org | Rifai Sufi Order Web Site
Sufism, as we know it, developed within the cultural matrix of Islam. The Islamic revelation presented itself as the expression of the essential message brought to humanity by the prophets of all ages. The Qur’an recognizes the validity of 120,000 prophets or messengers who have come to awaken us from our selfish egoism and to remind us of our essential spiritual nature. The Qur’an confirmed the validity of past revelations, while asserting that the original message was often distorted over the course of time.

Historically, Sufism was not conceived separately from the essence of Islam. The true teachers of Sufism have all traced their enlightenment through a chain of transmission going back to Hz. Muhammad (saws). While they may have disagreed with certain interpretations of Islam, they never questioned the essential validity of the Qur’anic revelation

[Badlun]

I am coming to all the points you raised in your previous posts one by one but time is the problem.
Where Quran recognized the 120,000 prophets?
I would love to know where from Shariat comes in Islam? This is important as you stress that Shariat is sine qua non for Sufism.

I forgot to give the link rifai.org but I have given the link of the other material.

Now how can I convince that this site is good and that side is not good. What appeals or where you find material closer to your approach you consider it a good site and the one which tells that Sufism is for all, is a bad site. You have your own criteria of good and bad.

I would love to see if you can challenge the contents of the other site or all the sites which talks of sufism for all not only for Muslims. This is not the solution if you declare that this is site is good and that is bad. You are not the judge here. You are not the savant here. Who has given you this authority to declare some sites or books authentic and others not.

I am copying these material for a person like you who want to understand sufism by words not by deeds.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

well Badlun you know how you said earlier in some discussion with Yasmeen that it's not really the name that is important, but the content, principles and concepts. Well you can imagine the same thing with Shari'ah; all the principles were already there, regardless of the name. All the qualified academic research has concluded Islam is laws, rules of governance, politics, dress, regulations, way of life, morals, worship etc. etc.


I know you disagree with this view, but you're not an expert and you're not very qualified in Islamic studies field so your conclusions/opinions are very novice and a product of simply lacking knowledge in this topic. All Major reputable Academics agree that Islam centralizes around Shari'ah which entails, laws, regulations, politics, dress, way of life, morals, worship. etc. etc.

But Also we have the testimony of Sufis; ALL the Great Sufi Masters of History have confirmed that Shari'ah is central and important to Sufism and Spirituality; Through their spiritual experience and enlightenment they saw the BATIN and DHAHIR of the Shari'ah; the Inner Spirituality of the Shari'ah which is expressed by the Dhahir, the Laws and Acts. It is because their experienced this Enlightenment directly we know that the Shari'ah is verified and accurately confirmed from a Spiritual aspect to be True and Correct.

So that's one way we verify the validity of Shari'ah by the experiences of Sufis

[randolph85]

badlun has to be a troll...

[BarakzaiAbdali]

well Badlun you know how you said earlier in some discussion with Yasmeen that it's not really the name that is important, but the content, principles and concepts. Well you can imagine the same thing with Shari'ah; all the principles were already there, regardless of the name. All the qualified academic research has concluded Islam is laws, rules of governance, politics, dress, regulations, way of life, morals, worship etc. etc.


I know you disagree with this view, but you're not an expert and you're not very qualified in Islamic studies field so your conclusions/opinions are very novice and a product of simply lacking knowledge in this topic. All Major reputable Academics agree that Islam centralizes around Shari'ah which entails, laws, regulations, politics, dress, way of life, morals, worship. etc. etc.

But Also we have the testimony of Sufis; ALL the Great Sufi Masters of History have confirmed that Shari'ah is central and important to Sufism and Spirituality; Through their spiritual experience and enlightenment they saw the BATIN and DHAHIR of the Shari'ah; the Inner Spirituality of the Shari'ah which is expressed by the Dhahir, the Laws and Acts. It is because their experienced this Enlightenment directly we know that the Shari'ah is verified and accurately confirmed from a Spiritual aspect to be True and Correct.

So that's one way we verify the validity of Shari'ah by the experiences of Sufis

I agree with this. Two amazing things about Islam as well is that its the only one of the monotheistic religions that had laid down a firm basis for its foundational beliefs within the lifetime of its Prophet. For instance, the Quran named itself 'The Quran.'

The Shariah concept was also founded in the text and that specific section gives the foundational interpretation of a law system beyond simply spiritual benefits and deficits in the after life.

See what you think about the fifth surah saying this:

5:43
But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

5:44
Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.

Lest the Badloony tunes type try to play fast and loose with the text and make the argument the above refers to spiritual edicts, the Quran premeditates them and shuts them up:

5:45
And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

5:46
And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

5:47
And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

and finally, the verse that clinches it and lays down the basis for the use of the word shariah as laws beyond a spiritual system:

5:48
And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

In the spirit of the prior verses ayaah 48 is a law related verse that imparts practical powers of judgement, law, and punishment to Muslim community via the revelations to the Prophet.

The key words in that ayaah are:
li kullin ja'alnaa min kum shir'athaan wa min haajaa
"To each of you we have prescribed a law and a method"

[faye]

rumi...
“I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.
I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.
I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not.
With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation.
Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even.
Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range.
I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court.
Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.”


― Rumi

[Badlun]

This is what I always try to explain that all such injunctions have a moral or ethical content not legal. Please see the bold words in this verse

And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

Here the main purpose is charity and expiation not legal punishment as for a death sentence you need a complete penal code. You cannot just by few words run a court sentencing people to death.

This will be very naive or even stupid way of thinking to make Quran a legal book as for law the world need parliament, courts, legislation, legal codes and many other prerequisites not just few sentences in a religious book.

Yes we have full guidance and the whole paraphernalia for beliefs, worship modes and ethics in Quran. We also have guidance for spiritual growth but for law, politics, economics, society, culture and science we have to resort to other sources not to Islam. This is why Sufis do not indulge in politics because they consider it a profession for politicians and we have the separation of Sultan and Murshid. Even people like Imam Abu Hanifa did not join the post of Judge and opposed the ruler of the time.

[Badlun]

rumi...
“I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.
I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.
I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not.
With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation.
Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even.
Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range.
I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court.
Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.”


― Rumi

Faye I do not have words to thank you for sharing this couplet of the great Rumi. You made my work easier.

In these words we can find secular sufism and sufism for non Muslims. Rumi did not find God no where neither in Kaaba nor in Prophet's experience but in the heart of Rumi. God is in our heart and we can be Muslims or Non Muslims. Finding God is sufism and you cannot find it in religion but in heart which is a spiritual experience for the whole mankind.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

This type of misunderstanding and misinterpretation by people who are trying to create Secular Sufism is what Rumi was warning about when he wrote


I am the slave of the Quran while I still have life,
I am dust on the path of Muhammad, The Chosen One,
If anyone interprets my words in any other way,
I deplore that person and I deplore his words. — Rumi


These people misrepresent Rumis words as an excuse to Avoid the responsibility of following Islam or look for opportunities to fabricate lies like Secular Sufism.

Let's examine what Rumi Says in Masnawi.



"The Shari'ah is like a lamp: It shows the way. Without a lamp you will not be able to go forward.
When you enter the path your going is the Tariqah when you reach the goal, that is the Truth..........
When man dies to the life of this world, the Shari'ah and the Tariqah will be cut off from him and only the Truth will remain
The Shari'ah is knowledge, the Tariqah is works and the Truth is attainment to God."
(from Masnawi Book 5 by Shaikh Jalaluddin Rumi)

So we see here that Shari'ah is always emphasized by Rumi and that Secular Sufism is false; what he means by the verses that Faye states is that Finding Irfan is deeper than just being a good Muslim; but without being a good Muslim and following you cannot reach True Enlightenment. ALL qualified Scholars Both Western and Eastern , Secular and Muslim, agree that Shari'ah is central in Islam and that Islam deals with Laws, way of life, government and politics as well as morals, worship and ethics

[Badlun]

This type of misunderstanding and misinterpretation by people who are trying to create Secular Sufism is what Rumi was warning about when he wrote


I am the slave of the Quran while I still have life,
I am dust on the path of Muhammad, The Chosen One,
If anyone interprets my words in any other way,
I deplore that person and I deplore his words. — Rumi


These people misrepresent Rumis words as an excuse to Avoid the responsibility of following Islam or look for opportunities to fabricate lies like Secular Sufism.

Let's examine what Rumi Says in Masnawi.



"The Shari'ah is like a lamp: It shows the way. Without a lamp you will not be able to go forward.
When you enter the path your going is the Tariqah when you reach the goal, that is the Truth..........
When man dies to the life of this world, the Shari'ah and the Tariqah will be cut off from him and only the Truth will remain
The Shari'ah is knowledge, the Tariqah is works and the Truth is attainment to God."
(from Masnawi Book 5 by Shaikh Jalaluddin Rumi)

So we see here that Shari'ah is always emphasized by Rumi and that Secular Sufism is false; what he means by the verses that Faye states is that Finding Irfan is deeper than just being a good Muslim; but without being a good Muslim and following you cannot reach True Enlightenment. ALL qualified Scholars Both Western and Eastern , Secular and Muslim, agree that Shari'ah is central in Islam and that Islam deals with Laws, way of life, government and politics as well as morals, worship and ethics

When Rumi talks of Quran and Muhammad , he talks of his person being a Muslim. As a Muslim he believes in Quran and Muhammad and wants to remove this misconception that he is not a non Muslim. One can be Muslim and Sufi as Rumi is and one can find God in his heart and he may not be a Muslim. One can have different identities at the same time. One can be a Muslim/non Muslim, a Sufi/non Sufi , a father, a Pashtun nationalist, a son, a husband, a teacher, a student, a manager , a worker all with simultaneous multiple identities.

Shariat can be interpreted as a system, a way of life, a code but not necessarily it can be Islamic. Sharia literally means way and can be any way. I am not against the word shariat as democracy or socialism or capitalism are also Shariat. Rumi wants to emphasize that one should need knowledge(Shariat), Action(tariqat) but the goal is God and for this goal there is no need of Kaaba or Muhammad which is explicit from faye's quoted verses.

[Friend]

Lol the whole discussion is revolving around Rumi but we have to know that Rumi is not our standard. Our standard is the prophet and his sahaba. and Badlun, dont misinterpret Rumi's poetry.