Sufism, non Muslim Sufism, Secular Sufism, Sufism as spiritualism and mysticism

[Badlun]

Let us have a thought provoking discussion on Sufism whether it is only Islamic or there can be non Muslim Sufism and whether Sufism can be used as synonymous with mysticism, spiritualism and other irreligious spiritual and mystic practices.

I follow Osho in my spiritual pursuits who is not a Muslim but I consider him to be Sufi, an expert on Sufism and the one who understands the essence of Sufism.I do not believe that the so called Shariat(I do not believe in any Shariat) or Islam (I believe in Islam as a religion but not a complete code of life)is necessary to be a Sufi. Yes you can be a Muslim and Sufi and you can be a non Muslim and Sufi.

I do not think that Sufism is a part of religion or one must be religious to be a Sufi. Any one doing a yoga or a mediation and seeking spiritual enlightenment is a sufi whether he or she believes in Islam or not.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

No Such thing as "Non-Muslim" Sufism, because Sufism is an explicitly Islamically rooted terminology. Osho is merely a opportunistically manipulating the popularity of Spiritualism and sufi ides to commodify it for his own benefit. He merely copies things other say word for word without understanding them; this creates the illusion that he is learned on the topic. But this is something any con-artist does when trying to exploit a situation. Osho has no credibility

The motivation for separating sufism from Islamic religious principles is to avoid the responsibility of restricting indulgent behavior and materialism which is the purpose of Sufism. This is why Sufism cannot happen unless there's Shari'ah

All of the Genuine Sufis, from Shaikh Abdul Qadir Jilani, Khwaja Bahauddin Naqshband, Shaikh Ahmad Sirhindi, Mawla Jalaluddin Rumi are are in agreement on this. You can study their literature and find that all of the claim that to be a TRUE Sufi you must first and foreost be obedient to Islamic Shari'ah

To quote from Jalaluddin RUmi he says

I am the slave of the Quran while I still have life,
I am dust on the path of Muhammad, The Chosen One,
If anyone interprets my words in any other way,
I deplore that person and I deplore his words. — Rumi


Based on the words and perspectives of the Highest Level Sufis like Rumi. Anyone who claims Secular Sufism or Non-Muslim Sufism is a Fraud and Imposter. There is no Sufism without religion.

I am not a Sufi; but the words of sufis speak for themselves.

[Badlun]

This a matter of perception. For me secular sufism exists. What do you think of the following article
Secular Sufism: Neoliberalism, Ethnoracism, and the Reformation of the Muslim Other - Lipton - 2011 - The Muslim World - Wiley Online Library

In what follows, I will argue that this discourse — what I refer to as “secular Sufism”— is built upon a revival of a nineteenth-century Orientalist bifurcation between a Semitic Islam and a supposed Aryan mysticism. In this essentialized and anti-Semitic conceit, Islam is understood as inherently intolerant and incompatible with Western secularism, while Sufism (commonly referred to as Islamic mysticism) is claimed to be profoundly tolerant and secular because similar to Christianity. Imagined as an Oriental version of a Kantian universal faith, Sufism functions in current US political discourse as a template for an “alternative” Muslim subjectivity. Decoupled from the ritual formalism of normative Islam,5 the Sūfi is projected as more readily in tune with the ethos of American individualism, liberalism, and neoliberal privatization.

[یاسمینه]

Please enlighten me, what non-Muslim Sufism is?
Is it when people create their own system of beliefs according to their wants and call it as they please, usually adding the magical word "religion"?
I can't understand people, who simply don't want to follow a specific religion and they still call themselves as believers/followers. If you can't live according to this or that religion you are not a believer. Does it hurt to admit it to yourself?
It is like pregnancy - you can't be partially pregnant.

Ah, I don't want anyone to think that I make general truths. What I wrote above is only my opinion.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

@ Badlun, Well your opinion is of little value since you're not a Sufi and your statements contradict the Highest Level Saints like Rumi and Abdul Qadir Jilani.

It is the opinion of Sufis that count in describing Sufism; not non-Sufis. That's why I present the direct quotes of Sufis and not my own personal assessment, since I am not a Sufi.

as for the article the first word that should be brought to attention is ORIENTALIST; Orientalism was introduced by the European Academics as a cultural movement to compartmentalize and commodify Oriental culture as a form of entertainment, amusement and exploitation for Europeans. It is born out of a bigoted movement. so this idea of "secular sufism" is an attempt to entertain European agendas It is an artificial idea imposed on Muslim sufis rather than something that grows naturally out of Sufism or Sufi experiences. In other words it is a Manufactured and Fabricated idea not a genuine one and hence not valid or real. However the article is merely emphasizing that Sufism is tolerant of others; which is true, but this is NOT secularism, since secularlism is a political doctrine and thus the person is misleading in their representation of "Secularism" and "Sufism"

[faye]

badlun, i am sure people who are truly spiritually oriented are not interested in any label, if they are not following a specified religious ideology and practices.
i believe in an intelligent creator and other worldly experiences (beyond the 'proofs' of science) but i don't have any specific practices connected to a religion and i don't need a tag, ie: sufi.

[Badlun]

Please enlighten me, what non-Muslim Sufism is?

There are Muslims who are not Sufis and there are non Muslims who are Sufis. Please read this article
What is Sufism?
Which says that
Sufism is much more complex than this description, but each order or school has its own unique departure from the most general concept of Sufism outlined here. There are dozens of Sufi orders in the West. Many represent orders in the East and adhere to Islam. Other Western orders allow non-Muslims to study the path, although the Master is usually a teacher in the direct line that goes back to those who were ordained by Mohammad. There are also a growing number of orders with teachers that are not in that direct line and have broken with Islam altogether.

Then read about Mehr baba who says that
His universal acceptance of all major religions as legitimate paths to salvation is paramount. It is not the dedication to a particular dogma and ritual that offers salvation, it is the absolute faith and devotion to God. To truly love God requires that we love and embrace everyone and everything as a dimension of God.

Who is Meher Baba?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

There are Muslims who are not Sufis and there are non Muslims who are Sufis. Please read this article
What is Sufism?
Which says that
Sufism is much more complex than this description, but each order or school has its own unique departure from the most general concept of Sufism outlined here. There are dozens of Sufi orders in the West. Many represent orders in the East and adhere to Islam. Other Western orders allow non-Muslims to study the path, although the Master is usually a teacher in the direct line that goes back to those who were ordained by Mohammad. There are also a growing number of orders with teachers that are not in that direct line and have broken with Islam altogether.

Then read about Mehr baba who says that
His universal acceptance of all major religions as legitimate paths to salvation is paramount. It is not the dedication to a particular dogma and ritual that offers salvation, it is the absolute faith and devotion to God. To truly love God requires that we love and embrace everyone and everything as a dimension of God.

Who is Meher Baba?

Neither of these are Sufi sources; quote from actual credible and legitimately qualified Sufis please; someone who has an ijaza from a Spiritual Lineage in Sufism which goes back to either Hadhrat 'Ali (kw) or Hadhrat Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq (ra)

[Badlun]

Is it when people create their own system of beliefs according to their wants and call it as they please, usually adding the magical word "religion"?
I can't understand people, who simply don't want to follow a specific religion and they still call themselves as believers/followers. If you can't live according to this or that religion you are not a believer. Does it hurt to admit it to yourself?
It is like pregnancy - you can't be partially pregnant.

Ah, I don't want anyone to think that I make general truths. What I wrote above is only my opinion.

Actually religion has the problem that it is not a natural science where 2 atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen will always make water. Religions have many sects, many schools of thoughts and many interpretations. Every body thinks that his religion or his sect is the truth while others are false. This is why there is never a consensus that this sect or this school is the pure pristine actual specific religion while the others are out of the the circle.

I personally believe in the 5 pillars of Islam, in all its beliefs system and code of ethics but I do not consider the culture. dress, beard, politics or society of Arabs also to be the religion of Islam. I believe in the spiritual system of Islam which is Sufism but I also do not restrict Sufism only to Islam as there can be Sufism for non Muslims. I am a Muslim Sufi but I can admit a non Muslim to be sufi too.

[Badlun]

@ Badlun, Well your opinion is of little value since you're not a Sufi and your statements contradict the Highest Level Saints like Rumi and Abdul Qadir Jilani.

It is the opinion of Sufis that count in describing Sufism; not non-Sufis. That's why I present the direct quotes of Sufis and not my own personal assessment, since I am not a Sufi.

as for the article the first word that should be brought to attention is ORIENTALIST; Orientalism was introduced by the European Academics as a cultural movement to compartmentalize and commodify Oriental culture as a form of entertainment, amusement and exploitation for Europeans. It is born out of a bigoted movement. so this idea of "secular sufism" is an attempt to entertain European agendas It is an artificial idea imposed on Muslim sufis rather than something that grows naturally out of Sufism or Sufi experiences. In other words it is a Manufactured and Fabricated idea not a genuine one and hence not valid or real. However the article is merely emphasizing that Sufism is tolerant of others; which is true, but this is NOT secularism, since secularlism is a political doctrine and thus the person is misleading in their representation of "Secularism" and "Sufism"

How can you say that I am not Sufi! I believe in Sufism, I practise Sufism. I meditate, Muslim Sufis have bestowed wazifa and zikar on me which I recite. I remain in deserts and forests to search enlightenment, tazkiya nafs and spiritual gratification. I have practised para sychological and spiritual activities like tele pathy, mesmerism, hypnotism, yoga etc. I am a sufi and am proud of it.
I appreciate oriental-ism and have discovered a lot of facts about my own religion(Sufi, Hanafi Islam), my language(Pashto) and many other things from the works of orientalists. I believe in the research system of West which is more advanced than our own. Thats why I quote non Muslim and western sources for Sufism too.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

How can you say that I am not Sufi! I believe in Sufism, I practise Sufism. I meditate, Muslim Sufis have bestowed wazifa and zikar on me which I recite. I remain in deserts and forests to search enlightenment, tazkiya nafs and spiritual gratification. I have practised para sychological and spiritual activities like tele pathy, mesmerism, hypnotism, yoga etc. I am a sufi and am proud of it.
I appreciate oriental-ism and have discovered a lot of facts about my own religion(Sufi, Hanafi Islam), my language(Pashto) and many other things from the works of orientalists. I believe in the research system of West which is more advanced than our own. Thats why I quote non Muslim and western sources for Sufism too.

Well because you don't have any ijaza from any Shaikh You don't follow the Practices of Sufism and you're not connected to any Authentic Sufi Tariqah, your views contradict the established methods of Sufi principles.


You're not a Sufi because a Sufi never says "he is proud" of anything; a Sufi believes in eliminating pride. The Purpose of Sufism is to get rid of the Nafs and worldly desires and also Ego, so Pride cannot be apart of Sufism. that is why they they do Tazkiyah al nafs. See the little clues you leave show inconsistency with someone who studies Sufism.

You are just a pretender who wants others to think he is a Sufi; trying to use the prestige of Sufism and Sufis to market your other ideologies to gain legitimacy in the Muslim community.

As for orientalism; the reason it is a flawed practice is because Orientalists deliberately misrepresented Oriental Societies for political and economic purposes as well as for exploitation; so Orientalism is actually a LACK OF research; and thus cannot be valid research methods which you claimed is your reason for your endorsement.

if you're quoting from orientalists that means you're using inauthentic and fraudulent sources. In fact the methods of Orientalists are critiqued in the West too for being deceptive.

[یاسمینه]

Actually religion has the problem that it is not a natural science where 2 atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen will always make water. Religions have many sects, many schools of thoughts and many interpretations. Every body thinks that his religion or his sect is the truth while others are false. This is why there is never a consensus that this sect or this school is the pure pristine actual specific religion while the others are out of the the circle.

I read your explanation and I still don't understand why people who create their own belief system need to impersonate another religion. Maybe to gain more followers and to feed their ego?
If someone modifies existing religion, let's say X religion, according to his own wishes and still calls is X religion, it is falsification.
Following your way of thinking I could easily state that everyone who perform whirling (probably you know that whirling is one of ways of expressing sama) could be called a Sufi.

In your other post you wrote that some Muslims are not Sufis (I agree with it) and some non Muslims are Sufi. Well, not! How one can detach Sufism from its Muslim roots? People can perform different practices, experience various forms of ecstasy, whirl for hours etc but if they are not Muslims, don't live according to Islam, they aren't Sufis. They follow their own belief system which could be beneficial for them, but still it has nothing to do with Sufism/ Islam.

Link from your other posts - I read but it does not appeal to me, Meher Baba either.

[Badlun]

Well because you don't have any ijaza from any Shaikh You don't follow the Practices of Sufism and you're not connected to any Authentic Sufi Tariqah, your views contradict the established methods of Sufi principles.


You're not a Sufi because a Sufi never says "he is proud" of anything; a Sufi believes in eliminating pride. The Purpose of Sufism is to get rid of the Nafs and worldly desires and also Ego, so Pride cannot be apart of Sufism. that is why they they do Tazkiyah al nafs. See the little clues you leave show inconsistency with someone who studies Sufism.

You are just a pretender who wants others to think he is a Sufi; trying to use the prestige of Sufism and Sufis to market your other ideologies to gain legitimacy in the Muslim community.

As for orientalism; the reason it is a flawed practice is because Orientalists deliberately misrepresented Oriental Societies for political and economic purposes as well as for exploitation; so Orientalism is actually a LACK OF research; and thus cannot be valid research methods which you claimed is your reason for your endorsement.

if you're quoting from orientalists that means you're using inauthentic and fraudulent sources. In fact the methods of Orientalists are critiqued in the West too for being deceptive.

The problem is that we live here in the virtual world and you do not know at all whether I have Ijaza from a Sheikh or not but still after reading my few lines you make such a big claim and tell such a flagrant lie that I do not have the Ijaza! Dont you feel a little burden on you conscience when you tell such a white lie with out knowing me personally! How come you I am not connected to any silsila or tariqa? Did I tell you anywhere that I am not

If you are not a Sufi how come you can criticize my comments which at least I base on my claim being a sufi my self. Sufism is a state of mind, its an experience, its direct knowledge, its a way of life and behaviour. its an intuitional phenomenon, its not books, references , encyclopedia or a lot of reading. Please experience it then come and comment.

How can you say Sufism is this and that and sufis should do this and that while you your self say that you are not a sufi. Let a sufi to correct me and educate me and remove my pit falls. I should not listen to a non sufi at least on sufism. And never from one who just trying to catch few words in my comments and then base his claim about my personality on reading a word in my posts. I am losing the respect I had for you.

I used the word pride, not arrogance. I am proud not arrogant or haughty. I am a meek, humble , down to earth person but I do not need to tell the world I am this or that. Once you said I am not a sufi at least I had to tell my attachment with Sufism and my love for it whose one manifestation is pride.

I am not here to ask people to vote in my favor. I always avoid personal involvement with other members. Its a place for me to share and to learn. I do not have any agenda or getting followers. I am happy where I am. I am not marketing any ideology. At least sufism is not for using it as a vehicle for marketing.

On oriental ism we can have further discussion some where else but no one can ignore the role of orientalists in discovering our own culture, language and religion.

I have my personal experience that when studying Pashto as a language and literature I found only and only orientalists who have done a real work on Pashto. I did not find a single Pashtun or Muslim author who have written on the origin of Pashto grammar, linguistics and history. The same can be said of even Arabic. Even on history of Arabs we refer to the books of orientalists.

On Sufism except the few master pieces of original texts like kashf, masnavi , ghunya etc we do not have good work on sufism except that of orientalsits.

[یاسمینه]

I think you both mix two meanings of Orientalism - XIX trend in cultural anthropology and Orientalism as a multidisciplinary field of research.

[Badlun]

I read your explanation and I still don't understand why people who create their own belief system need to impersonate another religion. Maybe to gain more followers and to feed their ego?
If someone modifies existing religion, let's say X religion, according to his own wishes and still calls is X religion, it is falsification.
Following your way of thinking I could easily state that everyone who perform whirling (probably you know that whirling is one of ways of expressing sama) could be called a Sufi.

In your other post you wrote that some Muslims are not Sufis (I agree with it) and some non Muslims are Sufi. Well, not! How one can detach Sufism from its Muslim roots? People can perform different practices, experience various forms of ecstasy, whirl for hours etc but if they are not Muslims, don't live according to Islam, they aren't Sufis. They follow their own belief system which could be beneficial for them, but still it has nothing to do with Sufism/ Islam.

Link from your other posts - I read but it does not appeal to me, Meher Baba either.

The issue is appeal. A muslim will die on the name of his prophet but other may abuse his name. I am atatched to sufism and Osho like masters for the last many years so I have found an appeal there. You might have not got that chance so these things do not appeal to you. Its natural.

There are muslims who call sufis as non Muslims and there are non Muslims who call them selves sufis. You and I cannot tell them you are not Sufis. We should also understand the difference of gnosis(marifa) and just belonging to sufism. I am not a master but I am a sufi. I am a Muslim but I am not the authority on Islam. There are millions of Muslims who are unable even to read or understand Quran but they are Muslims. Similarly by one practice of meditation or a wazifa or a tazkya you can become sufi but not aarif or master.

We should demystify sufism. Only Ibne Arabi or Jilani or Rumi are not sufis. Every body can become sufi by adhering to its basic principles. Its a relaxed world without the restrictions of knowledge, religion, race or language. Islam and sufism are not synonymous.