Split Topic: Apostasy and its Punishment

[Roshina]

you are an angry frustrated guy.

Again, I've noted you saying this SO many times before. Anytime someone disagrees with you, the best thing you can tell them in response is: "You have anger issues." Or "You are an angry and frustrated guy/girl." etc.

You've said this to me many a times and you've said it to many others! Seriously, dude?

They've made some excellent points here; why don't you counter-argue them using *your* mind? It's actually possible that you have some good stuff in your mind but you're just suppressing them, it seems, because you've made yourself believe that using your own mind will mean going against those who teach you Islam (i.e., IslamQA).

[Maiwand]

Again, I've noted you saying this SO many times before. Anytime someone disagrees with you, the best thing you can tell them in response is: "You have anger issues." Or "You are an angry and frustrated guy/girl." etc.

You've said this to me many a times and you've said it to many others! Seriously, dude?

They've made some excellent points here; why don't you counter-argue them using *your* mind? It's actually possible that you have some good stuff in your mind but you're just suppressing them, it seems, because you've made yourself believe that using your own mind will mean going against those who teach you Islam (i.e., IslamQA).

De words of Allah and the prophet go always in the first place, our minds are only needed to understand the rulings that have been extracted from their sources and for worldy matter. But the mind is never superior than the words of Allah or the prophet. Because the creater knows more than the created.

[ozymandias]

ok ok
back to the original topic.
Quit being immature. Man up! Get over your drama!

ANY THING DISPROVING PEACE IN ISLAM??

THAT is the topic. If you can't answer it, get the heck out of this thread and keep your mouth shut. Thanks!

Easy -- all the people advocating murder and terrorism for leaving Islam are proof enough to show that at least *some* Muslims are not following a religion of peace.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Just because an American does not follow the law and commits a crime against the law does not mean that the law encouraged the crime or that the criminal is no longer an American. That is why America has law enforcement agencies, like the police, FBI, CIA, to enforce the law.



ps

how are you, dear ozy?

[ozymandias]

How do you define terrorism? One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

I need to start copy/pasting my reply to this, as this misconception is surprisingly prevalent here.

To put it simply, a freedom fighter is a military combatant. A terrorist is a person that either targets civilians, or shows callous disregard for civilian life.

A freedom fighter, by definition, does not suicide bomb civilians, and is fighting to protect their way of life -- NOT force their way of life on others.

To kill a civilian for exercising their right to free speech, or free religion is terrorism, pure and simple. It is violating a civilians rights for the pure goal of forcing other civilians to follow the terrorists way of life.

A freedom fighter attacking and repelling an invading army is not a terrorist.

Take the example of Nelson Mandela who was considered a terrorist because he was a danger to the intrests of the British but he was loved by his people because he epitomized their struggle for freedom.

Will we ever agree on who is a terrorist and who is not?

Most people do. It's only people that refuse to face reality that seem to have troubles with the simple, common, definitions.

Sure, it's not quite a fine line, but it rarely has to be.

It might happens if we are honest but I don't think governments are really honest when they define terrorists. Their main concern is self intrest and anyone who doesn't work for their intrests is called terrorist.

This is why I am not using a governmental label -- I am using the commonly accepted definitions of the words.

There can be no peace without justice and as long as there is oppression and exploitation there will be revolutions and uprissings. Unfortunately sometimes to defend your rights you have to use violance and its your human right to defend yourself with any means when you are being opressed. Violance is usually the last resort for everyone but there comes a point where enough is enough. Sometimes to bring about "peace" you have to use violance and most people agree its a price you have to pay if you want long term peace.

I agree completely. 100%. What you fail to address, however, that there are cases where violence is not warranted, or is used to *violate* another's rights. Death threats and terrorist attacks in response to free speech is a case of this.

[ozymandias]

Ok, its good to know that you differentiate between freedom fighers and Terrorists. Targeting civilians deleberately to cause them harm or even death is a cowardly act and is condemned by Islam. Anyone who has studied islam objectively knows that its not part of Islam and muslims are not allowed to do such things. There will always be unfortunately some fringe elements among muslims who will justify it using Qura'an and other sources out of context. Its the same problem for any ideology and Islam is not free of it. However we must always ivestgate to reach the truth and not accuse the ideology itself of being flawed or accusing it of something which it doesn't preach.

Its good to know you have an open mind and don't just jump on the bandwagon.

I think we are pretty much in agreement, then ;-)

[ozymandias]

Ozymandias the same people who have mocked the religion of the Muslims is the reason for this insurgency.

I am not Muslim but I can understand why they would respond that way.

I don't understand how you can place the blame like that. Is it not more accurate to say that the inability to respond in a non-violent, non-terrorist, civilized way to another person exercising their human rights is the cause?

[شمله ور خراساني]

LOL!!!!

The level of childishness of the angry mob!

When did I say that I am an apostate? I said that 5 years ago was agnostic. Even so, being an agnostic does not mean people should apply the law by themselves and kill me.

I was an agnostic due to my environment.

But at least I have chosen to become a Muslim out of my own consent after being convinced that it is the true religion and I have accepted it fully.

Not like you bunch of furstrated forumites who seek every opportunity to vent your anger when you are left without options to discuss things in a civilized manner. And out of pride and ego, posting slander against people and lying against the prophet saww or destortintg the message of Islam.

And most funny thing is that Pashtunforums beloved moderator Qrratugai mingles with the rest to take a jab at me. LOL!

I can't believe you guys have filled 8 pages accusing me of being an apostate!!!

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Listen Murtad Mullah Sangar,

LOL!!!!

The level of childishness of the angry mob!

We are not childish. We are just using your own logic against you. Your logic is that childish. I am glad that you finally agree that your own logic is childish.

When did I say that I am an apostate? I said that 5 years ago was agnostic. Even so, being an agnostic does not mean people should apply the law by themselves and kill me.

Since when becoming an agnostic did not mean that you left Islam? You don't need to say that you are an apostate. You leaving Islam and becoming an agnostic is sufficient enough conclude that.

Whether it was 5 years ago or yesterday, you left Islam. Period. According to that you should have been killed and never allowed to breath.

You not only left Islam but you were on the verge of concluding that Allah does not exist.

Hence, the law clearly applies to you. YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED, MURDERED, GOTTEN RID OF.

If you have the right to conclude who should be killed and who should not. Equally, we can use your own logic to conclude that Shaykh Muhammad Al-Munajjid should have KILLED you.

I was an agnostic due to my environment.

So, you are allowed to use your environment as an excuse? PLEASE.

Are you saying that everyone in Afghanistan follows Islam to the T. Are you saying that ALL Muslim countries are perfectly following Islam? Their environment leads on to Islam by choice?

You hypocrite. You should have been burnt to death. How dare you come up with reasoning to dodge being killed for leaving Islam.

But at least I have chosen to become a Muslim out of my own consent after being convinced that it is the true religion and I have accepted it fully.

You were able to come back because you did not live in a Muslim country and you did not apply the law of apostates to yourself. Are you that illogical?

If you were killed, the way you say the law is, you would not have had another day to breath. You would have never had the chance to ever come back to Islam.

You hypocrite.

If you kill people for leaving Islam how could they come back?

So, don't think of yourself a good person because you came back. Technically speaking you should have had your head chopped off. You should not be a Muslim today.

You lost that right when you left Islam.

Not like you bunch of furstrated forumites who seek every opportunity to vent your anger when you are left without options to discuss things in a civilized manner. And out of pride and ego, posting slander against people and lying against the prophet saww or destortintg the message of Islam.

And most funny thing is that Pashtunforums beloved moderator Qrratugai mingles with the rest to take a jab at me. LOL!

I can't believe you guys have filled 8 pages accusing me of being an apostate!!!

You are the last person who is civilized. THE LAST PERSON.

You don't have manners. You don't have shame. You don't have any integrity or credibility. You have no decency. You are not honestly.

You are a liar.

I am amazed how you managed to defend your right to live after you left Islam.

In my books you will always be a murtad. Unless, you agree that murtadeen should not be killed.

[شمله ور خراساني]

You can call me murtad all you want. But as the hadith of rasul allah sal allahu alayhi wasallam goes, if two Muslims call one another kaafir, surely one of them is a kaafir.

Since there is no defect in my imaan, the one who is under threat of being an apostate is you.

[ozymandias]

You not only left Islam but you were on the verge of concluding that Allah does not exist.

I have to jump in here and correct you -- agnostic does not imply this. I have not read this thread as carefully as I could, but unless he stated he was an agnostic atheist, you are off base.

Agnostic is a term regarding knowledge -- and implies whether or not you feel that the existence of something can be proven. Atheist would mean that he did not believe in a god.

Agnostic Theism is a perfectly valid description of a type of religious person who has no doubts about the existence of a god.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

You can call me murtad all you want. But as the hadith of rasul allah sal allahu alayhi wasallam goes, if two Muslims call one another kaafir, surely one of them is a kaafir.

Since there is no defect in my imaan, the one who is under threat of being an apostate is you.

Don't bring Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) into this when you don't refer to his sunnah in your logic. Leave him out of this.

You are a murtad based on your own reasoning. I am using your own reasoning on you.

Technically speaking you should not be a Muslim. You left Islam. As per your own law of apostasy, you should have been killed. Hence, if you were supposed to be killed, you would have never had the chance to come back to Islam.

The only way for me to stop calling you a murtad is for you to admit that your reasoning was stupid and perverted. After that I will stop.

Until then it is:

Murtad Mullah Sangar



ps.

if you had an iota of shame you would reconsider your own law. I can already predict you won't. You don't want to lose credibility.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I have to jump in here and correct you -- agnostic does not imply this. I have not read this thread as carefully as I could, but unless he stated he was an agnostic atheist, you are off base.

Agnostic is a term regarding knowledge -- and implies whether or not you feel that the existence of something can be proven. Atheist would mean that he did not believe in a god.

Agnostic Theism is a perfectly valid description of a type of religious person who has no doubts about the existence of a god.

Fine. However, according to his logic you are not allowed to do this. This is what his own scholar says:

[شمله ور خراساني]

Fine. However, according to his logic you are not allowed to do this. This is what his own scholar says:

He is talking about you.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Actually, you were on the verge of leaving Islam, you were questioning Islam. Not me!


Nice try, Murtad Mullah Sangar.