Preaching Christianity should be stopped in Afghanistan.

[ozymandias]

Really? When, where and how

That document is a UN document. All member nations had a voice, regardless of religion.

Is it? Is that the reason they, Americans, killed nearly as many civilians as Taliban?

Remember, we are not talking just the people in Afghanistan, or the Middle East. The Taliban, and similar terrorist organizations threatened people and infringed rights world wide.

And Hazaras' rights have been attacked time on time and they keep seeking help of their government which is being controlled by the Americans, what happened?

I'm not sure what you mean. What rights are being attacked? I would think that the third largest demographic group in the country would have quite a voice.

Then who does?

Those that drafted the document decided what the rights were.

Why? Germans still argue that by far not six million Jews have been killed and they (Germans) were attacked for their 'rudeness' by pretty much the entire world. Shouldn't that be freedom of speech?

I *really* hope that I am misunderstanding your question. The murder and attempted extermination of multiple races of people is not free speech.

Besides, the *GERMANS* are one of the countries that passed a law stating that the defense or promotion of the war crimes committed by the National Socialist party is a crime. I'm not sure where you get the idea that they are trying to belittle the numbers killed -- or that an outside nation passed and is enforcing that law inside the borders of Germany.

Laws are already there and if it's unreasonable for others, Afghans themselves don't care about that.

Until you have an educated populace with a voice, how can you claim that?

And Afghans have rather protested against Americans trying to convert Afghans, not for freedom of religion. That's the public choice for you. Dostum legalised change of religion in Mazar-e-Sharif and you should have seen those peoples' outburst.

Human rights are not a matter of popular opinion. Even if unpopular in a given location, the rights still exist.

Kashmiri and Palestinian issue have been going on for decades now, does it really take decades to work on their human rights but just months to work on Christian-converts' in Islamic nations, gays in Islamic nations, etcetera's human rights?

Who said it only took months for these other groups? Who said only one issue can be addressed at one time? Obviously it takes more than months -- Christians, women, and gays are still oppressed in most Islamic countries.

So giving (once again) for example places like Palestine and Kashmir freedom is a form of violation of human rights?

...? What are you even asking? I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.

Freedom of various sorts are basic human rights -- not a violation of human rights. I am having a hard time even forming a logical, coherent sentence that describes a situation where a freedom can violate human rights.

What peace? If you are saying we are unable to live in peace in our own countries because we violate human rights, then what about the ongoing racism against us in Europe? Whose rights are we violating here?

You claim that none of the actions of the US benefit Muslims, and I pointed out that the peace being strived for, and a universal guarantee of human rights would benefit them. The US is working towards peace in the Middle East, peace where all people have access to freely exercise their rights, but you claim that that would not benefit Muslims.

All humans, worldwide, should be able to exercise their rights as they see fit.

Get over your persecution complex already.

Maybe worse than this, is still going on in some Muslim countries (which I have named several times by now), where are these 'Western saviours' regarding those countries being oppressed?

What Muslim countries have worse than that occurring? I assure you, if it is occurring, the only reason people are not there to help is the lack of information and verified evidence that it is happening.

Oh, and countries cannot be oppressed. Only people can be.

Or is it because those countries oppressing them (the ones being oppressed) benefit for the US for which they had rather do nothing about it?

If you have evidence that this is occurring, present it, and people will come to your aid.

You didn't really get the point, did ya? There are enough people who call themselves Muslims, but don't even know the basic rules of Islam. There are enough people who say they are strict Catholics, but wouldn't even know how their religion came to life. Some people just feel the need to make others follow their religion, without even caring what his/her religion is exactly about.

I follow that part... in a way. Just because a person does not understand the history of their religion does not make their faith any less devout, though.

These soldiers very clearly were commanded to do this 'task' which was never said to be a part of the NATO agenda in order to 'fight terrorism' in Afghanistan.

Ordered by *WHO*? It is currently illegal (both civilly and militarily) for a member of the US armed forces to spread Christianity while on duty, or to order others to do so.

It is a violation of the military code of conduct to do this as part of military duties, or under military orders. The actions of soldiers off duty are less controlled, but the code requires every effort to be made to *AVOID* the appearances that you claim. Soldiers are severely reprimanded for doing what you claim. It is illegal and punishable.

I'm not sure how much more clear the code can be on that subject. Anyone trying to convert people is doing it on their own time, and on their own initiative, against the wishes of the military.

All people? Is that the reason why situation between Shias and Sunnis got worse? Is that the reason why both sides put bombs near each other's mosques more often? Is that the reason why problems like corruption, prostitution, etcetera rise drastically?

*facepalm*

People of Afghanistan do not want to discuss this issue, which they made clear with their protests. Their country, their rules, their wish.

When you can point to a free and *SAFE* vote that shows these results after asking the opinions of all adults then you can talk. Protests do not accurately show the will of the people, nor do people opposing the protests feel they can safely voice their opinions in public. Take a look at how *MANY* of the international Muslim protests in the last decade have gone -- people calling for the murder of those that disagree with the protestors, violence and vandalism.

You really think that someone that disagreed with the protestors would have spoken up? You think they would have felt safe?

Protests are a way to drum up support for a cause, not measure the puplic opinion.

And still this is happening, and in European a.k.a. 'democratic' nations to start with. Just wait and watch what rights will be left to Muslims in near future and this is exactly what majority (non-Muslims) here support. These people despite of being educated want to forbid a particular religion in their country, then why complain about illiterate people back in Islamic nations?

First, two wrongs do not make a right. Second, I have never heard of anyone seriously trying to ban Islam, or any religion, from any country in the West. The only countries that ban religions tend to be communism and theocratic societies.

Third, how can you sit here and scream that christianity should be banned from Afghanistan, and then pretend to be upset when the tables are turned and a hypothetical country *YOU* made up *hypothetically* bans Islam in the indefinite future -- that is very unlikely to occurr in the real world?!

You just showed yourself to be a dirty hypocrit with your own theoretical example.

If age indeed decided your intelligence, then it would have been our previous generation making us understand what's right and what's wrong. Not the other way round like it's happening in Afghan families today.

Who is claiming intelligence comes with age? I am pointing out that you are being childish and illogical. The two might superficially be opposites, but that's not true.

Those Dutch voters didn't vote for such a party for nothing and if that party becomes stronger, than those Muslims have got absolutely nothing to say any more. Who is left to 'defend' now?

I'm sorry, what are you referring to? The Muslim members of the Dutch Parliment? Or the fact that a person and party critical of terrorist and radical Muslims was elected? The member of the political party that only managed to get 21% of the vote in the last election? Given that 56% of the population voted, *INCLUDING FORIENGERS THAT HAVE LIVED THERE LONGER THAN 5 YEARS* I would not say that Islam has much to worry about. At most 1/10 the population supported this policy -- in a country where 1/16 is Muslim.

It looks like they are a long shot from banning Islam, or anything even remotely as drastic.

Are you talking about the USA here? If yes then with all the money USA put in making others fight each other, or either 'rent' countries with it, they could easily have rebuild their entire state. So yes, it could have actually been very easy for them.

Your naivety is showing. Throwing money at the problem would not solve it. It takes time, and effort.

Even funnier than that is that I am having the feeling you are trying to point at the Quran-e-Sharif being edited too? Or am I mistaken here?

I make no such claim either way. I simply point out that every single argument you have made against Christianity and for Islam has been made for Christianity and against Islam. You made the arguement that it was OK to discriminate against Christianity because it is a false religion, founded on lies -- and they say the exact same thing about the koran. They claim that it is a copy-cat religion *******ising Christianity with a bunch of lies, and warping it into the devils work, and thus it is OK to descriminate against.

My point is that you cannot pick a religion and stomp on the rights of all humans and force them into following it. *EVERY* religion claims to be *the one*. There is nothing novel or new about that. You raise a bunch of superficial arguments for your religion, and they raise the very same about yours -- it's all a matter of opinion at that point, anyway.

Proves regarding the rape if the Iraqi girl and treatment of Iraqis and Afghans by our civilised Americans? Here just few examples which did get recorded;

CNN.com - Five soldiers charged in Iraq rape-murder case - Jul 9, 2006
Youtube.Com/Watch?v=hH1gmzGKFxw
Youtube.Com/Watch?v=_5Sg1k1hlGg

That's a step in the right direction. You have now shown that 5 soldiers have been charged with a crime. This means that you can show that it has occurred at least once. That's a start. Unfortunately, you also proved that the US is *AGAINST* the actions of these soldiers. You still have to prove your claim that "they shoot down every Afghan who badmouths them in Afghanistan... they shoot down every Iraqi who badmouths them in Iraq" So far, all you have shown are some secondhand stories and evidence of 5 soldiers breaking the law.

[Shayesta]

Remember, we are not talking just the people in Afghanistan, or the Middle East. The Taliban, and similar terrorist organizations threatened people and infringed rights world wide.

Wasn't this very same Taliban supported by the Americans against communists decades back? What had happened to the 'world right' back then? And how exactly did the Taliban 'threaten' rights world wide?

I'm not sure what you mean. What rights are being attacked? I would think that the third largest demographic group in the country would have quite a voice.

Ehh, no. They actually don't. In Maidan Wardak, the local Kochies invaded Hazarajat and took many belongings from them, and same had happened in Baghlan. They requested help from government and Americans, this was in fact all over the news. But guess happened? Absolutely nothing. As a result?; Many Hazaras have now armed themselves to protect their belongings.

Those that drafted the document decided what the rights were.

So in this case, it shouldn't matter what 'Western people' think of Palestinians or Israelis. Those who drafted this document should know better and should hand over Palestinians their rights, right?

I *really* hope that I am misunderstanding your question. The murder and attempted extermination of multiple races of people is not free speech.

No, I am not justifying murder of Jews. Germans do admit that Jews have been killed but almost claim most of the Auschwitz 'stories' are made up by Jews to gain sympathy, they actually still don't like Jews in general. And those Germans who say they hate Hitler, they don't hate him because he killed Jews. They turned against him since the day they realised Germany lost it's war against Jews and their country has been attacked by USA and Russia. They regret what happened to their country afterwards, not what happened to the Jews.

Until you have an educated populace with a voice, how can you claim that?

I am not claiming anything, even Afghans in the West do not speak up for freedom of religion in their motherland. Even though they have protested against anything they disagreed with so far. People don't want to think of legalising freedom of religion in Afghanistan, they are more worried about freedom of women and equal ethical rights.

Human rights are not a matter of popular opinion. Even if unpopular in a given location, the rights still exist.

And Mazar, despite of being one of the most educated provinces, is against this 'right'. So far for 'educated population'.

Who said it only took months for these other groups? Who said only one issue can be addressed at one time?

When the Afghan government said it will not allow Afghans keep converting to Christianity, there were actually NATO forces (even I am not mistaken then France in particular) who threatened they will withdraw if the government keeps pushing. There were protests going on in West for gay rights in Iraq, and Americans thought of taking action regarding it. But Palestinian and Kashmiri issues have been going on for decades now, where are these people in their regard?

What are you even asking? I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.

I was referring at officially freeing nations like Kashmir and Palestine, as response you were saying Islamic nations can't be sided when violating human rights.

The US is working towards peace in the Middle East, peace where all people have access to freely exercise their rights, but you claim that that would not benefit Muslims.

Once again, what peace? Wasn't it USA who was meddling with Afghan matters since decades back because they wanted to see Russians face a 'lost', till the day of today? They are worried about what Iran is doing in their own country, but ignores what their right hand Israelis are doing in Gaza? What peace?

What Muslim countries have worse than that occurring? I assure you, if it is occurring, the only reason people are not there to help is the lack of information and verified evidence that it is happening.

Oh, so there are actually not even evidences going on about Kashmir and Palestine? Lack of information regarding them, aye?

If you have evidence that this is occurring, present it, and people will come to your aid.

The importance of both Israel (oppressing Palestine) and India (oppressing Kashmir) to USA says it all. Doesn't it?

I follow that part... in a way. Just because a person does not understand the history of their religion does not make their faith any less devout, though.

It actually does, because if someone asks you why you follow this or that particular religion, then how you gonna answer him? That's what you gonna be criticized for, converting someone to a religion you don't have enough information about yourself.

The actions of soldiers off duty are less controlled, but the code requires every effort to be made to *AVOID* the appearances that you claim.

If they were off duty then you would expect them not to wear their army clothing, right? Then watch this, explain it and also note who is 'leading' those soldiers;

Youtube.Com/Watch?v=2HPfvKnCxwk

I have never heard of anyone seriously trying to ban Islam, or any religion, from any country in the West.

I didn't say they are exactly banning Islam, I said more and more restrictions are bound to be kept on Islam. Geert Wilders in particular had made comments like half of the Quran-e-Sharif should be burned, women should not be allowed to wear hijaab and many more anti-Islamic comments and these comments made him get third place in the elections. This means that the country is heading towards something, and we can see what that 'something' is which is definitely not democracy and nor freedom of practising your religion.

how can you sit here and scream that christianity should be banned from Afghanistan, and then pretend to be upset when the tables are turned and a hypothetical country *YOU* made up *hypothetically* bans Islam in the indefinite future -- that is very unlikely to occurr in the real world?!

These, Western, countries said they were democrats way before I even arrived here, here they had a democratic system going on and not a religious system. But today these very same people regret allowing Muslims to practise their religion openly and some even seriously believe their country is gonna be 'Muslimized'. Muslim country like Afghanistan on other hand claims to be an Islamic nation, that's why they have made their rules regarding religion already. (Maybe before they end up regretting like the West as well?) Better to prevent than regret, init? If in the future West decides to ban Muslims and Islam because an Islamic nation is doing the same regarding their religion, then this continent won't stay democratic either and nor will there be a difference between them and Muslims. If they will call Muslims by any names for not being open to any other religion, then same name callings will apply to them. They can set up their rules if they want to, that doesn't mean an Islamic nation should do the same.

You just showed yourself to be a dirty hypocrit with your own theoretical example.

We came here as Muslims and these people had all the chances to make their religion form some influence on us. We got their passports because we worked for their country and studied per their wish, so we are now legally this country's nationals. We didn't invade them and nor preach our religion in their houses. The case of Afghanistan is not the same at all and if this makes me an dirty hypocrite with my own theoretical examples, then may I be a dirty hypocrite with my own theoretical examples.

Who is claiming intelligence comes with age? I am pointing out that you are being childish and illogical. The two might superficially be opposites, but that's not true.

Childish and illogical to you, just like how I can't agree with you nor do you agree with me. May that be counted as childish and ignorant in your eyes.

The member of the political party that only managed to get 21% of the vote in the last election?

PVV is getting stronger and stronger. Just few years back people were ridiculing them, this year they are supporting them and who knows what might happen in another few years? It doesn't mean nothing, it's a glimpse of the Dutch future.

Throwing money at the problem would not solve it. It takes time, and effort.

As much as time as it took them to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? Oh, and not to forget, Vietnam?

You made the arguement that it was OK to discriminate against Christianity because it is a false religion, founded on lies

I never said Christianity is a false religion, never. In Quran-e-Sharif we are told we are told to respect Hazrat Isa Alaisalam (Jesus) and Hazrat Musa Alaisalam (Mozes), we are told to respect Christianity and Jewism. But it's the Westerners themselves saying how often the bible is edited, it's them who in huge numbers don't follow Christianity because they don't trust the bible and believe since it has been edited several times already, anyone could have had his hands on it. It is said that the original bible (non-edited one) is to be found in Turkey followed by Turkish Christians.

and they say the exact same thing about the koran.

And now the question is, have they read even one page of the Quran-e-Sharif? So how do they know how much truth there is in Islam, and how many lies?

They claim that it is a copy-cat religion *******ising Christianity with a bunch of lies, and warping it into the devils work, and thus it is OK to descriminate against.

They can claim all they want, you will find enough discriminating already anyway. And if the Islam is said to be a copy-cat religion anyway, then could you or them tell which religion we have copied and how come none of those religious people claim to be same as us?

You have now shown that 5 soldiers have been charged with a crime. This means that you can show that it has occurred at least once.

These are actually just those examples reported, there are more articles and if so many articles can come to light reported by some, you can only imagine how many unreported have been oppressed out of fear by many. In case you ask for proves again, here just a few more examples. Again;

Abuse Of Iraqis
Iraqi Prisoners

Unfortunately, you also proved that the US is *AGAINST* the actions of these soldiers.

If the Iraqi civilians massively protest against it (which they have), they put American government under pressure, these images become available worldwide, you think America will do nothing to correct it's image? And besides, there were even Americans who were justifying this crime by saying one of the soldiers was mentally ill but failed to justify crimes of other four. Some even say this never happened and it's all a propaganda.

I may be strictly against presence and interference of Westerners in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean I don't count the entire West as human and just how there are people amongst Muslims who speak in favour of West, same wise there are some people in West who will speak against such activities practised by their soldiers anywhere in the world. The problem is those Westerners feeling the need to meddle with everything and back their activities in name of democracy and human rights, not the entire Western population.

You still have to prove your claim that "they shoot down every Afghan who badmouths them in Afghanistan... they shoot down every Iraqi who badmouths them in Iraq"

Once again, just go to Afghanistan once and dare to shout at the American soldiers. In fact, have you seen the video of how they beat Iraqi kids? There were even more videos of such incidents (in one of which a soldier recording beating of a Iraqi kid and encourage other soldiers to keep beating him) which got deleted for whatever reason, but here is another;

Youtube.Com/Watch?v=uo1LddE7Ybs

So far, all you have shown are some secondhand stories and evidence of 5 soldiers breaking the law.

What's a first hand story in your eyes then?

[Zahed]

these type of threads got no ending, I can bet everyone here at the end of the day is sticking to his own point of view, no matter how right the other person is. I say just agree to disagree 'n let it be. 'n regarding Christianity in Afghanistan, its not as serious as some make out of it 'cuz majority still prefers Islam, let's just hope it doesn't effect our people negatively in near future.

[ozymandias]

Wasn't this very same Taliban supported by the Americans against communists decades back? What had happened to the 'world right' back then? And how exactly did the Taliban 'threaten' rights world wide?

In case you missed it, this was *not* in Afghanistan:




Ehh, no. They actually don't. In Maidan Wardak, the local Kochies invaded Hazarajat and took many belongings from them, and same had happened in Baghlan. They requested help from government and Americans, this was in fact all over the news. But guess happened? Absolutely nothing. As a result?; Many Hazaras have now armed themselves to protect their belongings.

[/quote]

Funny. In a democracy, they would have no worries.

So in this case, it shouldn't matter what 'Western people' think of Palestinians or Israelis. Those who drafted this document should know better and should hand over Palestinians their rights, right?

Right. All people should be allowed free exercise of those rights, no matter where they are located.

No, I am not justifying murder of Jews. Germans do admit that Jews have been killed but almost claim most of the Auschwitz 'stories' are made up by Jews to gain sympathy, they actually still don't like Jews in general. And those Germans who say they hate Hitler, they don't hate him because he killed Jews. They turned against him since the day they realised Germany lost it's war against Jews and their country has been attacked by USA and Russia. They regret what happened to their country afterwards, not what happened to the Jews.

They must hid it well. I let my German coworker read your post, and he can't stop laughing, and now told me I owe him a new keyboard, since he spit coffee on his.

[quote]


I am not claiming anything, even Afghans in the West do not speak up for freedom of religion in their motherland. Even though they have protested against anything they disagreed with so far. People don't want to think of legalising freedom of religion in Afghanistan, they are more worried about freedom of women and equal ethical rights.

Then why are you afraid to put it up to a vote?

And Mazar, despite of being one of the most educated provinces, is against this 'right'. So far for 'educated population'.

Got any poll statistics to back this claim up? Or are you still going by the 'everyone was too afraid to speak up' methodology?

When the Afghan government said it will not allow Afghans keep converting to Christianity, there were actually NATO forces (even I am not mistaken then France in particular) who threatened they will withdraw if the government keeps pushing. There were protests going on in West for gay rights in Iraq, and Americans thought of taking action regarding it. But Palestinian and Kashmiri issues have been going on for decades now, where are these people in their regard?

What does that even have to do with the quote from me?

Additionally, NATO forces can do what they feel is best, and safest for their troops. If they want to pull out because you make barbaric laws violating their rights, and threaten to arrest soldiers, they have that right.

I was referring at officially freeing nations like Kashmir and Palestine, as response you were saying Islamic nations can't be sided when violating human rights.

I still don't understand the question, and I am hoping you are not trying to put words into my mouth. Not only have I never said Islamic nations cannot be sided with, I have pointed out the opposite time and time again.

Are you now claiming that the Islamic states should be sided with simply because they are Islamic? What kind of drivel is that?

Once again, what peace? Wasn't it USA who was meddling with Afghan matters since decades back because they wanted to see Russians face a 'lost', till the day of today? They are worried about what Iran is doing in their own country, but ignores what their right hand Israelis are doing in Gaza? What peace?

You know, peace. That thing that occurs when you stop fighting, and stop oppressing, and have the ability to safely exercise your rights.

Oh, so there are actually not even evidences going on about Kashmir and Palestine? Lack of information regarding them, aye?

Lack of them having things *worse* than " legal to take Muslims out, roll them in bacon, and force feed them pork chops and beer before drawing pictures of Mohammad to defecate on -- and then torture the Muslims for being Muslim" has not made the news about those countries, no. But I suspect that that is just another case of you exaggerating and making statements you cannot back up.

The importance of both Israel (oppressing Palestine) and India (oppressing Kashmir) to USA says it all. Doesn't it?

The fact that you have no cases of 'worse than that' occurring says it all. You simply redefined the topic and changes your claims rather than back up the claims you originally made.

It actually does, because if someone asks you why you follow this or that particular religion, then how you gonna answer him? That's what you gonna be criticized for, converting someone to a religion you don't have enough information about yourself.

I call bull. A person can follow a religion and know why they converted to it, and not know the history -- or not know the *true* history.

You are making the absurd statement that a person cannot be devout without knowing the history of their religion, and that is simple not true. A person can be devout simply by being true and faithful to what they *think* is their faith. Heck, the literacy of Muslims is roughly 50% -- are you saying that at most only 50% of the Muslims can be devout? 50% cannot even read the words for themselves from the Koran, let alone learn the history of it. That doesn't even mention all the countries with little or no formal educational system, or that fail to educate their poor.

You can not know the history or beliefs of your religion and still be devout. You are grasping at straws here to defend yet another silly claim.

If they were off duty then you would expect them not to wear their army clothing, right?

Um... no? Many of these people did not waste any of their scarce baggage allowance on clothing, choosing instead to wear the clothing provided, that they have easy access to.

Then watch this, explain it and also note who is 'leading' those soldiers;

Youtube.Com/Watch?v=2HPfvKnCxwk

Watch your own video, starting at 0:58. It is clearly stated that these men are violating the rules.

I didn't say they are exactly banning Islam, I said more and more restrictions are bound to be kept on Islam. Geert Wilders in particular had made comments like half of the Quran-e-Sharif should be burned, women should not be allowed to wear hijaab and many more anti-Islamic comments and these comments made him get third place in the elections. This means that the country is heading towards something, and we can see what that 'something' is which is definitely not democracy and nor freedom of practising your religion.

Um... yeah -- that *would* be democracy.

These, Western, countries said they were democrats way before I even arrived here, here they had a democratic system going on and not a religious system. But today these very same people regret allowing Muslims to practise their religion openly and some even seriously believe their country is gonna be 'Muslimized'. Muslim country like Afghanistan on other hand claims to be an Islamic nation, that's why they have made their rules regarding religion already. (Maybe before they end up regretting like the West as well?) Better to prevent than regret, init? If in the future West decides to ban Muslims and Islam because an Islamic nation is doing the same regarding their religion, then this continent won't stay democratic either and nor will there be a difference between them and Muslims. If they will call Muslims by any names for not being open to any other religion, then same name callings will apply to them. They can set up their rules if they want to, that doesn't mean an Islamic nation should do the same.

Ah. Simple hypocrisy. Got it.

We came here as Muslims and these people had all the chances to make their religion form some influence on us. We got their passports because we worked for their country and studied per their wish, so we are now legally this country's nationals. We didn't invade them and nor preach our religion in their houses. The case of Afghanistan is not the same at all and if this makes me an dirty hypocrite with my own theoretical examples, then may I be a dirty hypocrite with my own theoretical examples.

Have fun making up a hypothetical backstory about you in your hypothetical country -- and their hypothetical actions in your real country.

It's getting harder and harder to take you seriously when you refuse to discuss this rationally.

Childish and illogical to you, just like how I can't agree with you nor do you agree with me. May that be counted as childish and ignorant in your eyes.


PVV is getting stronger and stronger. Just few years back people were ridiculing them, this year they are supporting them and who knows what might happen in another few years? It doesn't mean nothing, it's a glimpse of the Dutch future.


As much as time as it took them to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? Oh, and not to forget, Vietnam?


I never said Christianity is a false religion, never. In Quran-e-Sharif we are told we are told to respect Hazrat Isa Alaisalam (Jesus) and Hazrat Musa Alaisalam (Mozes), we are told to respect Christianity and Jewism. But it's the Westerners themselves saying how often the bible is edited, it's them who in huge numbers don't follow Christianity because they don't trust the bible and believe since it has been edited several times already, anyone could have had his hands on it. It is said that the original bible (non-edited one) is to be found in Turkey followed by Turkish Christians.

And now the question is, have they read even one page of the Quran-e-Sharif? So how do they know how much truth there is in Islam, and how many lies?

I know of at least 7 that read the Koran cover-to-cover, that continued to believe that it is a book of lies and blasphemy that is worthless -- other than as a tool to understand the Muslim mind.

I am fairly confident that they read it cover-to-cover, as I read it at the same time and discussed it with them as we went along -- and those seven never missed a meeting, or failed to discuss the current reading assignment.

They can claim all they want, you will find enough discriminating already anyway. And if the Islam is said to be a copy-cat religion anyway, then could you or them tell which religion we have copied and how come none of those religious people claim to be same as us?

You, yourself already answered this -- you already pointed out that Islam is founded on much of the same teachings as Christianity.

These are actually just those examples reported, there are more articles and if so many articles can come to light reported by some, you can only imagine how many unreported have been oppressed out of fear by many. In case you ask for proves again, here just a few more examples. Again;

Abuse Of Iraqis
Iraqi Prisoners


If the Iraqi civilians massively protest against it (which they have), they put American government under pressure, these images become available worldwide, you think America will do nothing to correct it's image? And besides, there were even Americans who were justifying this crime by saying one of the soldiers was mentally ill but failed to justify crimes of other four. Some even say this never happened and it's all a propaganda.

I may be strictly against presence and interference of Westerners in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, but that doesn't mean I don't count the entire West as human and just how there are people amongst Muslims who speak in favour of West, same wise there are some people in West who will speak against such activities practised by their soldiers anywhere in the world. The problem is those Westerners feeling the need to meddle with everything and back their activities in name of democracy and human rights, not the entire Western population.

Still waiting on your evidence that these things happen to *all* Afghanis.

Once again, just go to Afghanistan once and dare to shout at the American soldiers.

Once again, you make the outrageous claim, you back it up.

In fact, have you seen the video of how they beat Iraqi kids? There were even more videos of such incidents (in one of which a soldier recording beating of a Iraqi kid and encourage other soldiers to keep beating him) which got deleted for whatever reason, but here is another;

Youtube.Com/Watch?v=uo1LddE7Ybs

You might need to take a look at the map. Britain and America are two seperate places, for starters.

What's a first hand story in your eyes then?

Well, you can start with stories that did not originate with a fictional friend of a cousins brother's uncle -- and start citing first hand accounts, or reliable news sources, or stop claiming 'go look for yourself' as proof.

I mean, I *could* claim that Jesus, Moses, and Mohammad are drinking beer in my garage right now. I *could* tell you that if you don't believe me, you are welcome to come over and look for your self. I *could* do that -- but I would hope that you would find that argument as full of crap as I find you when *you* use that as proof.

[Zahed]

Once again, just go to Afghanistan once and dare to shout at the American soldiers. In fact, have you seen the video of how they beat Iraqi kids? There were even more videos of such incidents (in one of which a soldier recording beating of a Iraqi kid and encourage other soldiers to keep beating him) which got deleted for whatever reason, but here is another;

Youtube.Com/Watch?v=uo1LddE7Ybs

yup, been there, done that. even I 've heard those soldiers curse those drivers who come a bit close to them 'n if u just make a smal sound in return, they "ll stop u 'n ask what u just said. this is what our country has become like, where others 're telling us what to do 'n where those people can harm us but we should dare to say anything back. 'n about the vid where the kid is beaten, worse than that has happened in Iraq dear, much worse than 'n those British soldiers 're even bigger animals than American ones. that's why we should form a national unity as soon as possible before Chinese become next people to command on us in our own land.

[Zahed]

'n about the Germans, there 're people who believe Germans only regret losing power after Hitlers fall, not the genocide against the Jews. but there 're also people who say 'cuz majority Germans were economically doing so well, they didn't want to realise what Hitler is doing to the Jews, as long as they 're rich 'n healthy. I had a German friend back in high school who found every kind of offensive jokes about Jews funny 'n didn't give a damn what Jews had been thru. but there 're also Germans taking offensive in the saying 'heil Hitler'. we can't speak on behalf of the entire nation 'cuz people differ everywhere. would the world even be in such a huge mess if everyone was agree with eachother? doubt it.

[erlangner]

Dear All, if tomorrow USA or Uk or anyother european state announce, Preaching islam is banned from today, How you will react?
In my mind all human beings have the right to preach their believes, but masses will accept which is more influential in spirit. Why we are afraid for islam if we believe it is true.

[Shayesta]

In case you missed it, this was *not* in Afghanistan:

In case you missed; They weren't Taliban either. Americans so called invaded Afghanistan to trace so called Al Qaeda members but killed and captured everyone except Al Qaeda members. No wonder so many people are starting to believe 9/11 was all an inside plan.

Funny. In a democracy, they would have no worries.

Just like the democratic India where Muslims, Sikhs and Christians are being attacked by extremist Hindus and that also since ages? And another funny thing to note; Even Americans, the democrats, were informed of this (Hazara-Kochie issue). If they are there for democracy anyway, then why they let such incidents happen time on time?

Right. All people should be allowed free exercise of those rights, no matter where they are located.

Okay, good. Then would you now tell me why nothing is being done by Western governments regarding Palestine?

They must hid it well. I let my German coworker read your post, and he can't stop laughing, and now told me I owe him a new keyboard, since he spit coffee on his.

Aww, what a coincidence you have a German colleague! Since I personally have met and spoken to hundreds of Germans, even I can tell their opinion regarding Adolf Hitler and Jews, but then I thought of your following quote;

My time for an unrelated story. I have a cat, and it likes to play with string. Gee that was fun

So I guess same applies to your 'German colleague' as well as to those Germans I know?

Then why are you afraid to put it up to a vote?

I am actually more worried about the chaos and unrest this has caused, and still is causing. It's the Westerners who think Afghan rights are being violated by keeping them away of preaching Christianity. If the Westerners truly believe Afghans are being oppressed like this, then why don't they put up a vote and ask how many people feel oppressed by not getting preached?

Additionally, NATO forces can do what they feel is best, and safest for their troops. If they want to pull out because you make barbaric laws violating their rights, and threaten to arrest soldiers, they have that right.

Then why don't they just pull out instead of living under Islamic a.k.a. 'barbaric' laws? Them pulling out is just a threat they have given before as well, they are not actually gonna pull out, otherwise they would have done so long ago.

Are you now claiming that the Islamic states should be sided with simply because they are Islamic? What kind of drivel is that?

No, when you said that Westerners are in Middle East for democracy and human rights, I said where are these rules when it benefits Islamic nations? There I was trying to refer at oppression against of these two countries I named and then you started talking about violating human rights, which showed you obviously didn't understand what I was trying to say. Just read back some posts, please.

You know, peace. That thing that occurs when you stop fighting, and stop oppressing, and have the ability to safely exercise your rights.

Had the Americans never given us weapons to fight with against the Russians and hadn't they shown eagerness to defeat communism in Afghanistan in first place, we might not have been fighting till this extend today and nor would level of oppression have been this high today. Even they, Americans, wouldn't be making such a huge loss by spending billions of Dollars on war of terrorists. Oops, I mean 'war on terrorism'.

But I suspect that that is just another case of you exaggerating and making statements you cannot back up.

So because your 'story' of punishing Muslims for being Muslims by chopping them and etcetera (which does not even happen in real life) according to you is 'worse than' what's happening in Kashmir and Palestine today (which is happening in real life), therefore those countries shouldn't even be worried about? So only worse than what you said should happen first before those countries receive any help? Really? And about evidences regarding those countries, just like you forwarded me to use google for a previous statement, I request you to do the same regarding 'war on Kashmir' and 'war on Palestine'.

The fact that you have no cases of 'worse than that' occurring says it all.

Not many things are worse than being oppressed and tortured for over sixty years in your own country, which includes massive killing and raping in Kashmir. You were the one saying two wrongs don't make a right and now actually say that Kashmir and Palestine issue isn't worse than chopping, cutting, blahdi blah'ing Muslims, and therefore their case is being 'ignored'? And also note that I said 'maybe worse' than that is happening in some Muslim countries, but looks like to you the imaginary story of chopping Muslims and etcetera is gaining more importance in this discussion than what's happening in real life?

You can not know the history or beliefs of your religion and still be devout. You are grasping at straws here to defend yet another silly claim.

If you are truly a devout Muslim/Christia/etcetera then the first thing you will follow is your holy book, so you know why you are following that religion and why you love it so much. Yes you can love your religion without reading your holy book as well and do anything in the name of your religion thinking that that is what your religion recommends (like honour killing, dividing a religion into different sects, etcetera) but if that's not written in your holy book then it's not true regarding the religion you follow. There you will see what the difference in their thinking could have been only if they had read their holy book.

Um... no? Many of these people did not waste any of their scarce baggage allowance on clothing, choosing instead to wear the clothing provided, that they have easy access to.

Then you cannot claim they were off duty, can ya? So in what way were these soldiers punished, then?

Watch your own video, starting at 0:58. It is clearly stated that these men are violating the rules.

So once again, they were not off duty and did not have the right to do this. Exactly what I was saying previously.

Um... yeah -- that *would* be democracy.

Even though it's oppressing freedom of religion?

Ah. Simple hypocrisy. Got it.

Which part? Me saying that Westerns have got their democratic rules. Or Muslims having their Islamic rules? Or both?

Have fun making up a hypothetical backstory about you in your hypothetical country -- and their hypothetical actions in your real country.

Then why is the open minded and democratic Western even wasting their time and money on hypocrites like me and hypothetical countries like Afghanistan? They can have their beautiful democracy, we will have our barbaric Islam.

It's getting harder and harder to take you seriously when you refuse to discuss this rationally.

Rationally as in how? This is my standing point, that is your standing point. It's up to you whether you think I am coming across as being serious, or whether I am simply being a joker.

I know of at least 7 that read the Koran cover-to-cover, that continued to believe that it is a book of lies and blasphemy that is worthless --

And I know of much larger numbers than that who have read both the bible and the Quran-e-Sharif cover to cover, and decided to convert to Islam. I even know much larger numbers than that (those who converted to Islam) who will say very less originality is left in the bible as some parts are removed, while other things are added.

You, yourself already answered this -- you already pointed out that Islam is founded on much of the same teachings as Christianity.

But this is what Christians (like you said) disagree with, right? Then how is it a copy-religion if according to those people you discussed this whole religion-issue with say the Quran-e-Sharif all about lies, and therefore (I suppose) not matching the bible? Then what exactly is, according to them, copied from the bible?

Still waiting on your evidence that these things happen to *all* Afghanis.

All Afghans (not Afghanis) don't start badmouthing them in first place, simply out of fear. And nice to know you ignored all the other evidences and waiting just for one of them.

I mean, I *could* claim that Jesus, Moses, and Mohammad are drinking beer in my garage right now. I *could* tell you that if you don't believe me, you are welcome to come over and look for your self. I *could* do that -- but I would hope that you would find that argument as full of crap as I find you when *you* use that as proof.

Of course you can claim that Hazrat Isa Alaisalam, Hazrat Musa Alaisalam and paighambar Mohammad Sallalahu Allaihu Wasalam are in your house and you are even chatting with them right now, and obviously I won't believe you. Except for the difference being here is that even if I come over to your house, I will not find the three personalities you named. But if you go to Afghanistan just once, then you will witness whatever I just said. Just like how Zahed did and many others have.

[Jana]

Free speech.



You may wish to look into the Death Penalty of Apostacy thread. Not even all the Muslims *here* agree with you on that one.

What Death Penalty??? Anyone who believes that Islam or Quran has any such penalty for Apostasy then he/she will be biggest ignorant who doesnt know anything about Quran or Islam.


There is NO death penalty for Apostasy in Quran and Islam. Islam does not order death penalty in this case, rather anyone who leaves Islam is called Murtid and is out of Islam thats it nothing else.


If you are talking about some cases or case where death awarded for this act then that is barbarism by individuals and NOT according to Islam and Quran

[Jana]

Dear All, if tomorrow USA or Uk or anyother european state announce, Preaching islam is banned from today, How you will react?
In my mind all human beings have the right to preach their believes, but masses will accept which is more influential in spirit. Why we are afraid for islam if we believe it is true.

These countries claimed to be secular and champions of human rights so if they take any such step then its violation of their own laws and claims.

Either they should fulfill their claims or they should straight away accept that their secularism is flawed

[erlangner]

These countries claimed to be secular and champions of human rights so if they take any such step then its violation of their own laws and claims.

Either they should fulfill their claims or they should straight away accept that their secularism is flawed

SO We think we should just do, as we wish, but not others. Then I appreciate highly Uk government banning Dr Zakir Naik from entering UK, not to pollute the secualr environment with religious densities.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

What Death Penalty??? Anyone who believes that Islam or Quran has any such penalty for Apostasy then he/she will be biggest ignorant who doesnt know anything about Quran or Islam.


There is NO death penalty for Apostasy in Quran and Islam. Islam does not order death penalty in this case, rather anyone who leaves Islam is called Murtid and is out of Islam thats it nothing else.


If you are talking about some cases or case where death awarded for this act then that is barbarism by individuals and NOT according to Islam and Quran

Hold on a second, Jana. Are you saying that you disagree with Zakir Naik? Do you know more than Zakir Naik? Are you jealous of Zakir Naik?

(I'm being sarcastic).

[erlangner]

Hold on a second, Jana. Are you saying that you disagree with Zakir Naik? Do you know more than Zakir Naik? Are you jealous of Zakir Naik?

(I'm being sarcastic).

It was me supporting banning entry of Zakir Naik into UK, becuase if he claims, no one else is allowed any other religion, then He also has no such right to go any non-muslim country and preaching his religion. Ya if he wants this right for himself, then all human beings are allowed.