Free will or determinism?

[AfghanSoulja]

It doesn't matter either way..we live our lives thinking that whatever choices we're making are the right ones..we take these choices and regrets to the grave hoping we can salvage something from them..the fact that we were destined to do wrong is just an excuse among the many we keep feeding ourselves so we can do whatever the hell we want without feeling guilty about it.

Life is more like you taking a class, your prof if he isn't a blundering fool, always knows if your gonna pass or fail.. He doesn't need to know your destiny he can see what kind of a student you are

[Muslimah]

But we aren't destined to do wrong. That is shaytan making us do wrong. We are giving into him. Allah swt - why would He make us destined to do wrong? That doesn't make sense....

[Muslimah]

That may be an overstatement but with each passing day, humanity is gaining more and more control over the things that previously "terrified" it...so opening up of more and more options...

Yes, we can create human like robots, we have found water on the moon, we can prolong life, we can take someone else's heart and make it our own.

The one thing Allah swt can do that we can't and never will be able to, is recreate a soul. We can't even find where it's located.

[Toramana]

Yes, we can create human like robots, we have found water on the moon, we can prolong life, we can take someone else's heart and make it our own.

The one thing Allah swt can do that we can't and never will be able to, is recreate a soul. We can't even find where it's located.

Who knows! There were news that day they made a breakthrough by creating first protein cell ( or something like that)...

[Muslimah]

so youre saying people can maybe someday replicate Allahs swt creations?

[Toramana]

so youre saying people can maybe someday replicate Allahs swt creations?

To be skeptic/scientific, one shouldn't rule out any possibility...How could dinosaurs imagine a human-being....?

[Muslimah]

LOL
A soul will NEVER be duplicated. I can promise you this.

[Toramana]

You are a Jabari. That's Jabari interpretation of Qadar in Islam. Usually Jabariyyah stems from lack of willingess to accept rules. So people convince themselves that they don't have free will and interpret Qur'an in a way to support their argument.

But it is widely discussed in books of creed and most scholars of Islam have fathered upon the opinion that we are guided by allah by our good and bad intentions.

If you have bad intentions, you will end up doing bad things which allah wills for you. And if you have good intention, allah will guide you in good actions which will benefit you in the here-after.

This is why having Ikhlas is is so important. Without ikhlas, your acts of worship are not accepted. It is the ultimate pre-condition for everything.

Simplistic. Does God know in advance what my intentions would be...? If yes, it is fixed ? If no, God has limited power and I can will out of my own fiate.

[Muslimah]

Simplistic. Does God knows in advance what my intentions would be...? If yes, it is fixed ? If no, God has limited power and I can will out of my own fiate.

Like its been said. Your intentions, Allah swt knows. The Quran repeats probably 10000 times that Allah swt is the knower of everything. Allah swt ALWAYS knows your intentions.

But your intentions are different than your actions are they not?

[Toramana]

Good topic.

By the way, I find it very amusing when people say, "In Islam, ..." as if what they're saying has any place or legitimacy in Islam to begin with. Cute or amusing, not sure; prolly both.

And, hey, I think Ghani Baba's song "Mullah Jaan Waye Azal ke" would be a perfect response to the idea of determinism. No?

On a serious note, after having read the arguments against and for free will, I've convinced myself that it does not exist, provided God is omniscient. I see it this way:

If I can choose Option A or Option B, and an omniscient God exists, then this God knows exactly which option I'm gonna choose. So, while I *think* I have two choice -- A or B -- in REALITY, I have only one: Whatever God *knows in advance* I will be choosing. If I end up choosing Option A, then - since God knew I'd be doing this - I could not possibly have chosen Option B, simply because for me to have done so would mean that God held a "false" prediction, which by definition cannot be true about God, since God cannot hold a false prediction or lie.

Hence, I have only ONE option in reality but I think I have more than one.

And, so, no free will!

Also, if the Quran is interpreted literally, we can see that free will does not exist either, particularly in verses like where God says, "I guide whom I will," or "I feed whom I will," or "I humiliate whom I will." Where's the free will in these cases?

Many have tried to explain that, "No, no, it's not like that. It's not like God just CHOOSES to guide whom He wills; you gotta work for it." Oh, really? What did Muslims who are born Muslims and die Muslims do to get this "guidance" that non-Muslims who are born non-Muslims and die non-Muslims did not get? They're required to study Islam in order to convert (note how I said "required," k?) while the Muslims don't really have to do as much. Some try to say, "Well, yeah, that's why there's a hadith that the rank of those who convert to Islam is higher than that of the Muslim who's born a Muslim." No, not convincing at all and philosophically doesn't make sense either.

If I need elaborate, I'll be happy to do so -- but hopefully not.

But why this pre-suposition of an external entity? Why not seek causes of our limited power in the nature of the world that we experience? Besides, there are other complications with accepting this explaination.

[Roshina]

But why this pre-suposition of an external entity? Why not seek causes of our limited power in the nature of the world that we experience? Besides, there are other complications with accepting this explaination.

And hence the part of the premise that "if God exists / if God is omniscient." But since I am talking from a theist perspective, I'd say "Since God is omniscient, ...."

See, if God doesn't exist at all, then I honestly don't think the question of determinism and free will is there at all ... unless you wanna argue that past circumstances bring about the present and future circumstances, regardless of whether God exists or not. But for me, that's a whole different story -- and is true only in some cases, not in all or even most.

In other words, free will certainly does not exist for those who believe in God.

[Muslimah]

Well said in the last 3 posts!

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I won't go into too much detail.

You were given life--no choice of yours.
You are given free-will--no choice of yours.

What you do with your life is your free-will.
What you do with the world you live in is the collective free-will of mankind.

Allah will only get involved when you ask Him.

This is it in a nut-shell.

[Toramana]

I think we have free will but only in a limited sense. For example we can choose not eat something but we can't choose not to breath oxygen otherwise we will die.

That point about oxygen is true but is this limitation permanent i.e., till eternity? Isn't it due to our physical make-up, which can change with evolution or with scientific advancement?

I don't think our actions are predistend since we can choose to do certain things and not do others. Now since God is all knowing he knows beforehand what we will do and it happens with his will. Does this mean he made us do it? No, it means he willed it but didn't interfere with the decision. Your action happened with his blessing.

That expaination is non-sensical. What does it mean, he only "willed" it? Does it imply he only agreed to it? The other point is that if He knew it before hand, that means it was pre-destined. That is the only implication that can be made here.

Now this brings us the the question of evil. Does God will people to do evil. Why doesn't God stop us from doing evil, Isn't he just and merciful? First we have to undrestand that evil is merely the absence of good, like darkness is the absence of light.

That is again a lame explaination. Evil is the opposite of good not its absence. And the interpretation can be vice-versa.

So evil only happens when people refuse to obey God's command which is good and in harmony with nature.

What is it that make a person disobey God commands. We claim God created all things, material or immaterial. If that is the case, who created the ability in humans to do evil?

If God stopped us from making choices thus preventing evil and injustice then where is our free will? The fact is that we humans can only effect certain limited things and we have no effect on other things like gravity and time.

Humans are working on anti-gravity and manipulation of time. Nothing is impossible.