Free will or determinism?

[Toramana]

Let us discuss this important topic. Let us discuss what may the implications if one or the other view is accepted. I posted the thread in response to Tor Khan's assertion in another thread that every thing we do is pre-destined. If that is the case why should be held responsible for our acts.

I invite Pir Rokhan to initiate the discussion.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Let us discuss this important topic. Let us discuss what may the implications if one or the other view is accepted. I posted the thread in response to Tor Khan's assertion in another thread that every thing we do is pre-destined. If that is the case why should be held responsible for our acts.

I invite Pir Rokhan to initiate the discussion.

In Islam, there are two extreme positions in this regard. The first one is of the Qadariyyah who deny predestination and claim that we have absolute free will and allah has no knowledge of our actions.

The second position is of the Jabariyyah who are determinists. Jabariyyah believe that they have no control over their actions and no free will and that all compels people to do things.

The first group are very common among the so called "intelectual" muslims who reject practising religion and say that we should confine religion to our personal private domain and let the social life be determined by our desires. Afghan communists are famous advocates of this ideology.

Some Sufi movements in northern Afghanistan are followers of Jabariyyah. They commit grave sins and they would massacre people in Afghanistan and gang-rape women and chop them into pieces. And they would say, that they are still good muslims and they are still mujahedeen, but Allah made them to do those evil actions.

The correct position in Islam is of the Ahlul Sunnah Wa Al Jam'ah. We believe that Allah has given us free will. However, we cannot act without the will of allah. There are actions that Allah loves and prescribes for us and guides us to it if we have good intention. And there are actions and things allah hates. And if we intent evil he will guide us by our evil intention.

Nothing happens without the consent if Allah. Even evil happens with the consent of Allah.

It us up to us to choose good above evil and intent good instead of evil to achieve allah's mercy and reward.

[Son of Mountains]

My Baba jee says:
"it is written in your Loh-e-Mehfooz what you have to get in your life, but how you will get that, either by fair means or by unfair means, this all depends upon your way of thinking.
If your way of thinking is positive, you will adopt fair means. If your way of thinking is negative, you will adopt unfair means.
To choose fair or unfair means to get a thing written in your Loh-e-Mehfooz (destiny) is in you own hands (according to way of thinking)"

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sorry to say but this is a really immature and stupid post. Why do you keeping bringing sufis into everything. Sufis are one of the few muslims who don't really judge people unlike some of our more strong headed muslim brothers who seem to think they know it all and anything besides their stance is bidaah and shirk and blah blah blah.

When people accuse Taliban or other similar groups of commiting atrocities you say Taliban wouldn't do such a thing. Anyone who does such a thing is not a true Talib. By the same token sufis can say the people who did such things are not sufis. You can't have your cake and eat it too as the english would say. Judge sufis by the doctrine of sufism not by those who claim they follow it. If I were to judge Islam by you, I wouldn't have a very positive view of it. comprende?

Well, I would love to see you engaging in peaceful dialoge with your fellow Sufi brethren of Junbish and Jamiat Islami. We'll see what the Sufi Uzbeks of Rashid Dostum will say about your love and respect for them.

[شمله ور خراساني]

So now Dostum is a sufi? I have heard it all.

As amatter of fact, yes. Junbish is a Sufi movment.

[شمله ور خراساني]

yeah but its only in name. Dostum is only an oppurunist and he will be hindu one day and jewish next just to get the support of people. Qadiyanis also claim to be muslims. Let's not play this game.

The fact is that qadariyyah is wide spread among the Sufi's who are members or supporters of Junbish.

You don't have to start a normative discussion here why they should or they should not refer to themselves as Jabari Sufis.

We are talking about what it is like. And not what you like it to be.

[Toramana]

A good will is a free will.

Toramana, You claimed that every thing we do is pre-destined, Id like you to further explain that comment before I shed some light.

I didn't say that. I quoted what Tor-Khan said in another thread.

[Toramana]

You should tell us how you feel first.

I believe in the evolving power of humainty...The more we exploit our rational faculties, the more we have the free will...Remember, how did we worship trivial phenomina of nature like rain, sun etc. and were scared by them because we didn't understand them One day humanity may conquer death....

[شمله ور خراساني]

I believe in the evolving power of humainty...The more we exploit our rational faculties, the more we have the free will...Remember, how did we worship trivial phenomina of nature like rain, sun etc. and were scared by them because we didn't understand them One day humanity may conquer death....

Are you a kaafir?

[Roshina]

Let us discuss this important topic. Let us discuss what may the implications if one or the other view is accepted. I posted the thread in response to Tor Khan's assertion in another thread that every thing we do is pre-destined. If that is the case why should be held responsible for our acts.

I invite Pir Rokhan to initiate the discussion.

Good topic.

By the way, I find it very amusing when people say, "In Islam, ..." as if what they're saying has any place or legitimacy in Islam to begin with. Cute or amusing, not sure; prolly both.

And, hey, I think Ghani Baba's song "Mullah Jaan Waye Azal ke" would be a perfect response to the idea of determinism. No?

On a serious note, after having read the arguments against and for free will, I've convinced myself that it does not exist, provided God is omniscient. I see it this way:

If I can choose Option A or Option B, and an omniscient God exists, then this God knows exactly which option I'm gonna choose. So, while I *think* I have two choice -- A or B -- in REALITY, I have only one: Whatever God *knows in advance* I will be choosing. If I end up choosing Option A, then - since God knew I'd be doing this - I could not possibly have chosen Option B, simply because for me to have done so would mean that God held a "false" prediction, which by definition cannot be true about God, since God cannot hold a false prediction or lie.

Hence, I have only ONE option in reality but I think I have more than one.

And, so, no free will!

Also, if the Quran is interpreted literally, we can see that free will does not exist either, particularly in verses like where God says, "I guide whom I will," or "I feed whom I will," or "I humiliate whom I will." Where's the free will in these cases?

Many have tried to explain that, "No, no, it's not like that. It's not like God just CHOOSES to guide whom He wills; you gotta work for it." Oh, really? What did Muslims who are born Muslims and die Muslims do to get this "guidance" that non-Muslims who are born non-Muslims and die non-Muslims did not get? They're required to study Islam in order to convert (note how I said "required," k?) while the Muslims don't really have to do as much. Some try to say, "Well, yeah, that's why there's a hadith that the rank of those who convert to Islam is higher than that of the Muslim who's born a Muslim." No, not convincing at all and philosophically doesn't make sense either.

If I need elaborate, I'll be happy to do so -- but hopefully not.

[Muslimah]

have any of you heard of al-qadar?
Allah swt determines only 3 things for us:
The day we are born, who we marry, and when we die.

However, He will put good into our lives. It is Shaytan that convinces us to do evil. The only evil Allah swt will ever put in our lives is something that will bring us closer to Him (like illness). That's why we say those who are tested often are closest to Allah swt.

We need to be responsible for our actions because Allah swt will give us his blessings. and it will also ward off evil.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Good topic.

By the way, I find it very amusing when people say, "In Islam, ..." as if what they're saying has any place or legitimacy in Islam to begin with. Cute or amusing, not sure; prolly both.

And, hey, I think Ghani Baba's song "Mullah Jaan Waye Azal ke" would be a perfect response to the idea of determinism. No?

On a serious note, after having read the arguments against and for free will, I've convinced myself that it does not exist, provided God is omniscient. I see it this way:

If I can choose Option A or Option B, and an omniscient God exists, then this God knows exactly which option I'm gonna choose. So, while I *think* I have two choice -- A or B -- in REALITY, I have only one: Whatever God *knows in advance* I will be choosing. If I end up choosing Option A, then - since God knew I'd be doing this - I could not possibly have chosen Option B, simply because for me to have done so would mean that God held a "false" prediction, which by definition cannot be true about God, since God cannot hold a false prediction or lie.

Hence, I have only ONE option in reality but I think I have more than one.

And, so, no free will!

Also, if the Quran is interpreted literally, we can see that free will does not exist either, particularly in verses like where God says, "I guide whom I will," or "I feed whom I will," or "I humiliate whom I will." Where's the free will in these cases?

Many have tried to explain that, "No, no, it's not like that. It's not like God just CHOOSES to guide whom He wills; you gotta work for it." Oh, really? What did Muslims who are born Muslims and die Muslims do to get this "guidance" that non-Muslims who are born non-Muslims and die non-Muslims did not get? They're required to study Islam in order to convert (note how I said "required," k?) while the Muslims don't really have to do as much. Some try to say, "Well, yeah, that's why there's a hadith that the rank of those who convert to Islam is higher than that of the Muslim who's born a Muslim." No, not convincing at all and philosophically doesn't make sense either.

If I need elaborate, I'll be happy to do so -- but hopefully not.

You are a Jabari. That's Jabari interpretation of Qadar in Islam. Usually Jabariyyah stems from lack of willingess to accept rules. So people convince themselves that they don't have free will and interpret Qur'an in a way to support their argument.

But it is widely discussed in books of creed and most scholars of Islam have fathered upon the opinion that we are guided by allah by our good and bad intentions.

If you have bad intentions, you will end up doing bad things which allah wills for you. And if you have good intention, allah will guide you in good actions which will benefit you in the here-after.

This is why having Ikhlas is is so important. Without ikhlas, your acts of worship are not accepted. It is the ultimate pre-condition for everything.

[Roshina]

^ lol

Great job with labeling! You can label it whatEVER you want - it won't change the essence of the message, to which I remain quite loyal.

[Toramana]

Are you a kaafir?

No I am a tolerant sufi Muslim with a sense of gratitude and loyalty to the systems that benefited me. I think it to be in the best interest of Muslims to project a tolerant, peaceful image of Islam. Conquer with soft power.

As for other things, I am admirer of Science and rationalism. Religion for me is an evolving, refining phenomenon.

[Toramana]

Can you explain?

That may be an overstatement but with each passing day, humanity is gaining more and more control over the things that previously "terrified" it...so opening up of more and more options...