Justification and conditions regarding suicide missions

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I dont understand why this is so hard you to at least reconsider your theory SXE! I mean heck, when we debate Masood here in the past, I recall Albani or whoever shot back that were I right about him being this that or the other, I ought to consider Azzam's choice of him. I responded that was absurd and Azzam wouldnt be dumb enough to not understand Afghan dynamics and support a Pashtun leadership.

I read up on it and there it was Masood was Azzam's choice whether I liked it or not. I am in the proces sof reading about Masood in further detail to understand who he was and what reality is behind the RAWA hype.

Being wrong is not a bad thing.

Its the same way with Moqdata al Sadr and Iraq. I thought he was nationalistic despite his shiite roots and folks suggested reading and I corrected myself after seeing the reality behind what the Mehdi milita is doing and has done.

Im not sitting here like some and saying the Taliban was this sahaba incarnate force. Nor would be foolish enough to even say Mullah Omar mirrors the man he is named after. But that doesnt negate a realistic portrait of why he fought the Russians, who he fights now, and what the truth is behind the man. Nor should one, in a realistic analysis, as you have pointed out regarding Abdali, gloss over the mans drawbacks as a leader.

But I am sorry, this view of him that you have generated is incredulous. The view of the Afghan resistance is very much the same.

By that same token, certainly, the folks calling themselves Taliban in Waziristan have their own power motives, they have done their own wrongs, but that does not negate their drive to be independent as a people (hence the fact that they suicide bombed when Musharraf sent Pakistani soldiers into FATA).

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Check our your posting later, I gotta go grab some groceries for da kor walaa.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I dont think I said that. I said that you need to examine Pape's data, confirm his correlations exist, determine the r, the p, the t and whatever else you statisticians do and deal with the numbers because you are questioning the veracity of the correlation. He had detailed them in Dying to Win with graphs charts numbers as he presented.
.

A P-Value would only apply if he was doing a testable hypothesis; that's why they call it Hypothesis testing. This is how they determine correlation is causation, because they narrow the variables and control these values.

I'm not a statistician, But I use statistics to help me model things.

This is why Pape's conclusions fail; his data is like half kneaded dough, he needs to supplement the support that such conclusions can be extrapolated from the data.

[thetruth]

SXE, It is on you to show facts and disprove Pape. Pape does not have to put a leash on you or coerce you to look at the facts he presented.

You saying it is wrong does not and will not make it wrong. Sorry boy, but it does not work that way.

Until you do that, your just acting like a sore loser

[ScimitarXEdge]

I think I explained thoroughly WHY it's wrong, nice try ..TheBatil.

[Alchemist]

First of all Barakzai, the reason why you can learn new information, and change your opinion about a subject is because you are a real intellectual - you want to understand and know the truth. SXE is an egotistical keyboard warrior and uses the forum the way a teenager uses online gaming communities to compensate for what he lacks - A real education. His pathetic attempt at trying to debunk Pape's argument by making fallacious arguments is proof enough.

Three pages of SXE giving excuses why he doesn't have to supply data to counter the data supplied.


Fallacy: Affirming the Consequent:

If whabbis are present in afghanistan, then Human bombings happens.
Human bombings are happening, so whabbis are the cause.

His case is that 5% Arabs have turned themselves into human bombs. Therefore these 5% are the cause of suicide bombings for the other 95%. They are the "indepandent variable" because with or without NATO's presence, suicide bombing is an effect of whabbis presence.
Fact: Whabbis were present in Afghanistan since the Soviet Invasion. Sayyaf is an open advocate of Whabbism because he was Saudi's man. He actively brought in fighters from Arab countries to Afghanistan and has even been linked to OBL during those times when AQ was established by the blessing of CIA and saudi's GID. In 1989 there were about 10,000 Arab fighters registered in AQ. Today the Pentagon affirms that in all of Afghanistan there aren't more than 150 AQ members.
So if this fools "logic" is correct, in that whabbism, and foreign mujahids are the cause for the rise in human bombs, then shouldn't we have seen more human bombs before than now? Given that more foreign mujahids were present back then?

I mean, this man thinks he knows what "indepandent variable means" what "correlations" means... and p-values...and QED ...all foam ...no water.


Then he tries to get emotional on the subject: "Do you think it is wrong to do suicide bombing in public places?"

A Loaded Question.

Places like Kabul are now divided into pockets where local Afghans are not allowed to enter into. A Manichean world divided by race. NATO headquarters, the US embassy were attacked in September by a few insurgents and caused an uproar in the city for hours. Now is it wrong for invading imperial forces to set up bases in Afghanistan? In Kabul? And then build compounds and "safe havens" only for themselves, and not allow locals in there? In almost all cases of human bombings, the targets have been foreigners. So isn't it a bigger problem that imperial forces are carpet bombing villages in Afghanistan without discrimination? Through the eyes of the insurgency, these "public places" are really the property of the invading forces, since the karzai government, and all the people in the city of Kabul, are in one way or in another in servitude of the colonial forces. It's an open secret that NGO offices, and ISAF run Kabul.

Now his logic follows such: If nato air strikes a village, then it was because they were housing terrorists, so the rest were "causalities of war". If an insurgent strikes against imperial forces, and in the attack local afghans were killed, then it is completely immoral, unislamic, illegitimate.

So how warped is this man's sense of morality?

Killing of foreigners is a non issue. That foreigner may have been a woman or a child. But the killing of local afghans by local afghans is an issue.

Then this same guy thinks that Ismail Khan and Hekmatyar's Hizb e Islami are legitimate resistance forces in Afghanistan. Even though they have blood of Afghans on their hands too. Technically speaking, every warlord in Afghanistan has blood on their hands. In essence war is blood shed. Yet, if you ask him to name ONE legitimate Islamic resistive force in the world, he can't name you any. Basically, any form of resistance to colonization is futile from the get go and "unislamic". Which is why I consider SXE to be no different than Qadianies.


What we need to understand here is the context of the situation. But we can't involve SXE in this discussion because this fool doesn't have the intellectual capacity to engage in a meaningful debate. Rather he'd pull on straws and make tangential arguments or simply poison the well - ...and when all that fails - he escapes into his delusions and says "Well...I dealt with that and its settled...I won ..you lost...haha"

[ScimitarXEdge]

I have clearly and explicitly stated that NATO/Imperialist killings of afghans is deliberate murder. So Alchemist is purely trying to pervert the argument with Straw Man Fallacies.

I'm not affirming the consequent; AlQaeda militants and their affiliates have advocated and condoned suicide attacks and have taught the ideological constructs of suicide attacks to Afghans such as Dadullah.

The idea that Kabul is "divided" by places where locals cannot go is evidentially supported as of yet. Furthermore the suicide attacks happen just OUTSIDE the gates or barracks/compounds. This more than adequately debunks the argument. Clearly if the premise were true that means the likeliness of civilians outside the region is legit


What's absurd is not thinking Afghans killing Afghans to stop foreigners from killing Afghans is ludicrous; it's thinking such a thing is necessary; which is something explicitly endorsed by Alchemist and the likes.

Ismail Khan didn't have blood on his hands; Hekmatyar had more of a legit jihad against occupation in context to NATO, while he did in fact do crimes in the past and is accountable for them. He isn't murdering and killing Afghans NOW, that's where the measure of legitimacy rests in terms of fighting an occupation. Of course Alchemist will look at every chance to remove a comment out of context to try and pervert the message of the opposing view however he can. Furthermore Hizb-e-Islami is not only a Hekmatyar led group. There are other sectors of Hizb-e-Islami outside of Hekmatyar's command taking up arms against NATO

Which means that Alchemists' rhetoric is once again nothing but a red herring.

Debunnked and discarded ...next.

[Alchemist]

I have clearly and explicitly stated that NATO/Imperialist killings of afghans is deliberate murder. So Alchemist is purely trying to pervert the argument with Straw Man Fallacies.

And insurgent human bombings are not deliberate murders.

Not all human bombings are conducted by the insurgency. Foreigners stage human bombings. Either the ISI or CIA or whatever else "secret" organization. There is no incentive for the local insurgency to bomb innocent civilian.

I'm not affirming the consequent; AlQaeda militants and their affiliates have advocated and condoned suicide attacks and have taught the ideological constructs of suicide attacks to Afghans such as Dadullah.

Reference.

The idea that Kabul is "divided" by places where locals cannot go is evidentially supported as of yet. Furthermore the suicide attacks happen just OUTSIDE the gates or barracks/compounds. This more than adequately debunks the argument. Clearly if the premise were true that means the likeliness of civilians outside the region is legit

Yes, it happens at the gates but it also happens inside too. Such as the killing of CIA agents by an Afghan Soldier...and not a taliban soldier just a few months ago.
Your argument is fallacious ...you are implying that if civilians die inside the compound then they deserve it? What difference does it make? Inside outside? You are an idiot.

What's absurd is not thinking Afghans killing Afghans to stop foreigners from killing Afghans is ludicrous; it's thinking such a thing is necessary; which is something explicitly endorsed by Alchemist and the likes.

Strawman.

Ismail Khan didn't have blood on his hands; Hekmatyar had more of a legit jihad against occupation in context to NATO, while he did in fact do crimes in the past and is accountable for them. He isn't murdering and killing Afghans NOW, that's where the measure of legitimacy rests in terms of fighting an occupation. Of course Alchemist will look at every chance to remove a comment out of context to try and pervert the message of the opposing view however he can. Furthermore Hizb-e-Islami is not only a Hekmatyar led group. There are other sectors of Hizb-e-Islami outside of Hekmatyar's command taking up arms against NATO

Pure propaganda B.S.
Ismail khan has blood on his hands. The blood of Pashtuns. The blood of rival factions and their families.
Hekmatyar killed his own son in law just a few years ago... he is a psychopath. Stop defending him... you nut job.

Which means that Alchemists' rhetoric is once again nothing but a red herring.

Debunnked and discarded ...next.

[ScimitarXEdge]

When you blow yourself up knowing full well other people are around; this is deliberate murder.

Saying the "CIA" is pure conspiracy theory junk; not because the CIA couldn't do such a thing but it oens the doors for extended question. like

if the CIA have done some of these suicide attacks, why would the CIA do some of them, and not all of them? Why Do the Taliban take credit for them? If the CIA are involved, why do the Taliban insist on using such techniques affiliated with the CIA, and lastly , would this then mean that the Taliban-CIA have a nexus together?

If we're going to play conspiracy theorists; why stop there? Let's just say Taliban-CIA are really in collusion. That's actually more believable considering the circumstances.


Trying to play off of the ethnic card is peculiar; as Massoud had more blood of pashtuns than anyone else in Afghanistan during his time and yet Alchemist praised him as a hero? Alchemist isn't even Pashtun, why would he care about a specific ethnicity? I could understand blood of Muslims, but specifically identifying ethnicity is agenda intended.

IT's also false, Ismail Khan has favor of Pashtuns and Tajiks alike, it's only certain Noorzai Commanders who out of their egotism tried to oust Ismail Khan out of power in Herat and got squished doing it. You can't blame Ismail Khan for defending himself., and he did it without suicide bombing/massacring civilians, unlike Massoud or the Taliban. If they start trouble, they bring their consequence on themselves.

What Hekmatyar does amongst his ranks is another issue; He's hasn't sent people to explode in Bazaars just to get a passing convoy. Whatever he did in the past is mutually exclusive to this, He's a criminal, but up until recently his Jihad against NATO was legit.

[Alchemist]

You are farting nonsense...And still haven't shown one single source to back any of your wild allegations. Why? Because they don't exist. In all the time I have debated with you...you rarely show any references because every time you do that you get debunked and embarrased so now you argue like zionist hasbara agents - trying to score points by diverting the argument. We were talking of pape's paper..and when it was made clear to you how stupid your argument was you are now trying to weasel out again by shotgunning many loaded questions. No matter...your weak mind can only comprehend so little.


Your allegation against Masood are unfounded. Show references. When did he target an ethnicity?

Hekmatyar is widely known for killing far more mujahideen than Soviets. He bombed the city of Kabul for days in and out because he didn't get to play king. He has the blood of more civilian innocents than the taliban! And you are defending him because your daddy has favourable opinion of him. He is the biggest psychopath in Afghanistan, with dostum trailing right behind him. Hekmatyar has been a Pakistani pick from the beginning...and has had the full support of ISI and CIA when he was operating Heroin labs in Peshawar....At this point it is clear that you have no case against the Taliban. If you were against the taliban because of your ethics then you wouldn't be defending a genocidal psychopath like hekmatyar. Do you want references? Obviously...like every thing else that you argue for or against ("islamic democracy", evolution, defense of zionism, private ownership of the FED, meaning of ayats and ijma of ulama) you just make whimsical assertions. This all goes to show thatyou are here to promote the agenda of the colonialist. And your claim that that psychopath hekmatyar isn't the leader of Hizb e islami is laughable. Who do you suppose is the "real" leader then? Your red bearded uncle in your picture? While Hekmatyar recieved the bulk of the aid from ISI...Ismail recieved his alloted $500,000 annual pay...the only one who didn't get a dime from the Pakis was Masood. And what about the torture of Mohammad Rafiq Shahir at the hands of the goons of Duke Ismail?

Here is a 54 page report from human rights watch about Ismail khan's targeting of Pashtuns and abusing locals.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/afgh...htm#P340_51694

According to witnesses, when the elders were first gathered at the police station, Ismail Khan arrived with his son, Mir Wais Siddiq.

There were soldiers on either side of him [Ismail Khan], about ten or fifteen of them, pointing their guns at the elders. And Ismail Khan came directly at [Barez], and without saying anything, he just punched [Barez] in the forehead. You can see the scar now....45

Ismail Khan's son then grabbed Barez by the throat and started to choke him. The other troops pushed and hit Barez, and he fell down on the floor. At this point, Ismail Khan said: "It cannot be done like this, this is not enough."46

Barez was a 60 year old man who supported the return of Zahir Shah as King and staged a rally.


Does CIA carry out black ops operations in Afghanistan and other third world nations? Yes.
Do they carry out lethal operations against local civilians in order to disrupt the populace and tarnish the image of their enemies? Yes. In Cuba the CIA were caught red handed poisoning milk supplies of local villages. Why? Because they wanted the people to lose faith in Castro's regime.
Cases of US soldiers planting time bombs in unsuspecting local's vehicles, of foreigners caught dressed as locals going on killing sprees, and of fake "suicide bombers" have already been reported in Iraq. I have seen similar stories surface on Afghan satellite stations. A government worker on TV said that a white woman was caught by local police with a suicide vest but the karzai administration decided to suppress the news and let her go.
The purpose of suicide bombings in hospitals, schools etc only serves the invading forces to demonize Islam and give legitimate excuse for their extended occupation of Afghanistan.

Who is Mullah Zabiullah Mujahid?
Wasn't the murder of Rabbani pinned on a suicide bombing and said that Taliban took responsibility? And that too a "turban bombing". Some on the forum were even trying to rationalize the use of "turban bombs". Only later it was found that the killer was no taliban and had used no bomb at all.

You can even read this on Zabiullahs wiki page - There is no proof that he is actually affiliated with Mullah Omar. The CNN interview that was allegedly with him was later denied by many...and allegedly himself too. It is only assumed that he is taliban by the mass media but others speculate that he is either haqqani or hizb e islam.

I have citation available for everything I said here... unlike you.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You skirted most of my post; but to address your Ismail Khan stuff, it seems like rhetoric from Pashtun nationalist propagandists; The Committee for People to Reinstate Zahir Shah?

either way except for the one claim, which hasn't been corroborated, the rest of the link reads like "individuals who MAYBE linked to Ismail Khan" or "are supposed proxies"

really it's allegations than evidence. And if this is the best you can come up with, then that shows he's a legit guy. Everyone has mud slung at them. The slinging of mud is not enough to make someone bad.

You're right it wasn't Pashtun ciivilians he killed, that were his associates

it was Hazara civilians; but I guess in your racist, ethnic manipulative eyes, Hazaras are less worthy of life because they're Asiatic. Sieg Heil Hitler

[Alchemist]

I skirted when I answered every single point you made...but you didn't skirt my post when all you had did was defend Ismail khan? No..you are the skirt wearing panzie.

Agents of Ismail Khan, including members of Amniat, arrested and beat loya jirga candidates in almost every district of Herat province: Ghorian, Gozra, Kushk, Karoch, Pashtun Zarghan, and Herat city itself, as well as in several other provinces in the west under Ismail Khan's control, including Ghor.5

Ghorian District: A resident of Ghorian district in Herat province told Human Rights Watch that scores of Pashtuns in Ghorian were arrested and beaten in late April 2002, before the loya jirga elections began. Victims included representatives who wanted to nominate themselves.

It was after ten o'clock in the morning. My kids came running in, and they were screaming, "Grandfather has been arrested by the police!" They had seen it with their own eyes. But I could do nothing, I was afraid to go out for fear that they would arrest me. So for that day we stayed inside....
[Later] they made a business out of it: they ransomed people back to their families. If you were able to pay them something, they would release the prisoners. And so we paid to have him released.60

Once the grandfather had been released, he told his son what had happened, and urged him to flee to Kandahar and tell the story to U.N. officials there.

They [the jailers] had beaten the prisoners, very hard, with cables. About fifty were beaten, the rest were threatened. My father told me that they would come into the prison in the night, and they would take one man out, and beat him, and then bring him back, and take another, and then beat him, and so on. And they also made all of them labor during the day, making bricks and digging with pickaxes. And they told all the prisoners, when they were together, and also when they were beating them: "Do not try to be in the loya jirga. You are Pashtun, you do not belong in the west. You are Pashtun, you are not from our people."61

U.N. officials confirm that Ismail Khan's forces again arrested loya jirga delegates in Ghorian in late May.62 Ismail Khan's forces came into Ghorian village just before the elections and again picked out Pashtuns elders, taking them to jail. Most were later released but did not run for the loya jirga elections.63

....

Karoch District: Residents of Karoch district told Human Rights Watch that the commander of their district, Naim Haqjo, told all supporters of Zahir Shah that they could not run in the loya jirga elections, and later threatened them with death.73

Just before the first elections, I went into the city, and when I returned, my son told me that someone had come from the district governor's office, and said that I shouldn't show up at the elections.... Another Pashtun delegate was also intimidated. [He] came to me and he said, "The governor [district administrator] himself has come and told me not to go to the election. He said, `Dear brother, as a favor, I tell you not to nominate yourself. You will be killed. And give this message to [name withheld] too, that he should not nominate himself or he will be killed.'" So I did not nominate myself.74

Some residents complained to the United Nations, to the Afghan loya jirga commission, and to Ismail Khan. According to one account, Ismail Khan told the Karoch residents that he had not given any order to Naim Haqjo, and that he would rebuke him for intimidating them. He also invited the residents to a public meeting at the Qol-e Urdu military base, along with UNAMA representatives and the district governor. One resident described the meeting with Ismail Khan to Human Rights Watch:

So the next day, we went to the base in Herat, Qol-e Urdu. Ismail Khan was there, and [a representative from UNAMA], and the district governor [Haqjo]. And Ismail Khan did not rebuke Haqjo for intimidating us [as he had promised], but instead embraced him and kissed his cheeks and told him, "You are closer to me than my son."75

Then, during the meeting, Ismail Khan reportedly said that "only mujahid" can run in the elections, and no one else-"no Khalq, Parcham, or Shoala" (in other words, no one who had worked in the communist regime).76 At the meeting, U.N. representatives reportedly pleaded for Ismail Khan to be more open and not make political proclamations about who could work in government. Residents described what he said next:

Ismail Khan stood again and said, "No! We will not allow these people to run for the loya jirga. They have killed two million of our people. Even if they are elected, we will cut off their feet so that they cannot even get on the airplane to go to Kabul for the loya jirga."77

After the meeting one of the representatives elected in the first round was intimidated:

Naim Haqjo came to me and told me not to run in the second election. He said: "My brother, I am under the authority of Ismail Khan, and when an order is given I have to follow it and implement it. So I am telling you, please don't run for the election in the second round. It is not me who is stopping you; it is Ismail Khan himself.... If you do run for election in the second round, you will have to face the consequences. And if I am given the order, I will come to your house. I will pull you out of your house in the night, and when that happens, don't complain to me." And in the end, I did not run.78

As in other instances, UNAMA officials pressured Ismail Khan about the cases in Karoch, but the delegates still felt unsafe. The latter delegate was particularly upset, and told UNAMA representatives that they had let him down: "We contacted [UNAMA] after the meeting with Ismail Khan, and we said, `We put our trust in you, and you did not help us.' But they told us, `We have given you all the help we can, but we cannot do anything more, and in the end we cannot protect you.'"79
According to a UNAMA official the events detailed above were "a typical case."80


One witness told Human Rights Watch that he saw troops looting Pashtun homes in Ghorian and said that other families told him that women were raped in their homes.110 (Ismail Khan's troops had already looted homes inGhorian province earlier in the year.111) Some of the fighters captured by Ismail Khan's forces were imprisoned in Ghorian through September 2002, and others in Herat city.112 Some released prisoners complained to U.N. officials that Ismail Khan's troops tortured them.113

Dozens of reports by local pashtuns are "allegations" and not evidence according to mr. ****mitarsexedge.
Why doesn't the same apply to the Taliban for him? Why he double standards then? Is it because Ismail khan sits on US's lap?

There is something odd about this guy...the way he argues is like an irrational batty old woman so he can't be reasoned with.

(by the way douchbag my maternal grandmother was hazara)

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Very similar to Pape's Navy speech, his Duke University speech explains the Pakistani phenomena very clearly:

Prof. Robert Pape on "Dying to Win" (Part 4 of 4) - YouTube[/URL]

Also interesting is his discussion to the solution at 9 minutes 50 seconds.

[kakargirl]

After 10 years in Afghanistan, foreign troops can claim successes in the notorious province of Helmand - but a vicious guerrilla war still rages in the Upper Gereshk valley, which US marines are in the process of handing back to British forces.


Heaviest war torn destroyed province is Helmand in all this.

[JAMALUDEEN]

desperate times call for desperate measures