Intra-marital Rape

[IamDZJ]

this thread is about spreading awareness regarding intra-marital rape being wrong. THANKS FOR NOTICING

[Master Khan]

this thread is about spreading awareness regarding intra-marital rape being wrong. THANKS FOR NOTICING

I think I upset you.
I know intra-marital rape is wrong..I never said it was right

[IamDZJ]

well if your wife is really beautiful then Intra-marital Rape could be a possibilty

.

[Master Khan]

.

where I said in that line that it is right?

[Dinosaur Khan]

Intra-marital rape is wrong in every sense, but it is sad that many of our religous men depict women as if they are sex object. when you will sit to a mullah, his main target will be women as if she is incarnation of shaitan. I interviewed many religous guys and they said that in islam you can have "forceful" sex with wife if she is denying it to you.

[IamDZJ]

you consider it a possibility and then in of your posts you said you were talking about husband and wife. as if that made it alight.

[Master Khan]

you consider it a possibility and then in of your posts you said you were talking about husband and wife. as if that made it alight.

Well I never said it was alright.
I already said in my lost posts that its haraam and wrong...how is raping your wife alright?

[IamDZJ]

whatever

[Master Khan]

whatever

zano chi to wai no..I give up.
you seem to lost your plot here

[IamDZJ]

i haven't lost anything. you keep going in circles. well actually i have lost interest in convincing you that you are wrong.

[Master Khan]

i haven't lost anything. you keep going in circles. well actually i have lost interest in convincing you that you are wrong.

Well thank god for that.
you are confusing me by saying that I think that Intra-marital Rape is fine..oh I make it look as if its fine...

[darkwitch]

But, unfortunately, many authentic hadiths make women nothing but objects (I'll prove it here with regards to marital rape and in the thread on women in Islam as well). So we have no choice but to conclude that these hadiths don't consider it "rape" when a man forces himself on his wife in order to get pleasure from her. If they weren't authentic, one would say, "Well, yeah, they don't matter." But these ARE authentic. And that's a big problem.

Consider the following hadiths, for example.

~ Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: When a woman spends the night away from the bed of her husband, the angels curse her until morning.

~ Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is in the heaven is displeased with her until he (her husband) is pleased with her.

~ Abu Huraira (Allah he pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may, peace be upon him) as saying: When a man invites his wife to his bed and she does not come, and he (the husband) spends the sight being angry with her, the angels curse her until morning.

(All of the above appear in the Book of Marriage in Sahih Muslim’s; it is chapter 20, hadith #s 3366 – 3368.)

From Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, hadiths 1201-122, we read the following:
~ Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If a man Invites his wife to sleep with him and she refuses to come to him, then the angels send their curses on her till morning."

~ Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If a woman spends the night deserting her husband's bed (does not sleep with him), then the angels send their curses on her till she comes back (to her husband)."

Trimidhi has similar hadiths.
Other versions say that the woman must NEVER refuse sex to him, even if she’s in the stove (i.e., kitchen), or on the back of a camel, or tending to her children, etc., etc.

Note who narrated the hadiths. Abu Hurairah is one of the least liked, least trusted, and most misogynistic hadith transmitters ever, and many many contemporary, and even classical, scholars on women’s Islamic status have a problem with him. He’s narrated many other hadith in which women are nothing but sexual objects of their husbands. Whether this is my own opinion or not is not important. I’ve only recently been noticing this myself about Abu Hurairah.

So, the above hadiths clearly make it the woman’s obligation to serve her husband’s needs. They also don’t say ANYTHING about the woman’s needs for intimacy, or the man’s obligation to please his wife as well.

The commentaries on these hadiths say that "no, the woman CAN refuse but she has to have a legitimate reason, like some illness or menstruation or something."
Yeah, okay, but if she refuses him, there MUST be a reason. What if she's just not in the mood? What if she doesn't like him and is never turned on by him and doesn't wanna let him touch her because he mistreats her, or doesn't know how to respect her? What if she's just not comfortable at that particular moment? What if she's busy doing something *that she considers* more important than pleasing her husband's sexual needs at that particular time? But some hadiths make it obvious that even if she's "on the back of a camel" or "at the stove," she cannot refuse him. That's to mean, I'd suspect, that no matter WHAT she's doing, she MUST not say no.

I'm about to give the views of some scholars, so you'll see that these hadiths really have created much disturbance in the minds of most scholars, as well as controversy, and scholars are left with a desperate need to support it, since the hadiths above are classified as authentic.

those hadith are correct...and im also against marital rape...
but
the way u posted those hadith is just wrong...and talkin about a sahabah like that?
he was a companion of the holy prophet peace be upon him...
if a wife is doin sumthin more important to her than her husbands pleasure...
then she can just tell him that...dnt u think as husband and wife they should have that understanding?
im sure an understanding man will understand and agree with her...if she is sick..if she is too weak...she can refuse it simply..because its also haram to do something that will affect ur health...

nd tehn the non understanding men who have to much of an ego...
well their prob is their ego...nd its mostly because of a culture...
when a man gets married in teh east...he is now the boss and the wife is teh maid..she has to everything he says...nd because the women arent taught to stand up for themeselves...even tho Islam gives many rights to muslim women ....
the men wont give it to them...
its like they are programmed taht way...husband say wife do...
it wrong its tottaly wrong ...but if ppl had the knowledge of real islam nd didnt twist it to their own belief...
nd if he wont respect her she wont respect him...
nd will be a failed marriage...
marriage is all about compromise...


nd then men's needs are different to a womens...
i hope u all understand what im sayin cuz i dnt wanna elaborate on tht..
if she refuses him...nd keeps on refusing he might be obliged to commit adultery...isnt thats whts goin on here in america?
the wife gets too busy for husband..nd the husbands ends up cheating...yes its wrong for teh man to cheat but if the wife had attended to his needs he might have not cheated ...
soi hope u see my point through all this..

[Roshina]

Hi, Darwitch! Welcome to the forum (if you're not that new, my apologies; I haven't been here as often as I would like to). Thanks for challenging my reply. I was hoping someone would.

[QUOTE=darkwitch;7899]those hadith are correct...and im also against marital rape...
but

the way u posted those hadith is just wrong...

Exactly what about them was "wrong"? Saying that there are hadiths that justify marital rape? Saying that most anti-women hadiths are narrated by Abu Hurairah? But that's a fact. I'm sorry that most Muslims don't know this, I really am, but what can I do about it?

and talkin about a sahabah like that?
he was a companion of the holy prophet peace be upon him....

What did I say about him that was "like that"? And why CAN'T I talk about him or any other "sahaba" "like that," whatever "like that" means, khorey? being a friend of the Prophet (pbuh) doesn't make them infallible or any more perfect than you and I are, sweetums.

In fact, did you know that when the Prophet passed away (pbuh), his daughter (Fatima, peace be upon her), came to Abu Bakr and said, "I want the property that my father won in the Battle of Khyber," Abu Bakr told her, "Sorry. No property for you because your father told me that prophets don't leave inheritance." Fatime fought him about it, cried about it, and remained upset with him until death. There's a hadith in which the Prophet said, "Fatima is a part of me, and whoever angers her, angers me” (al-Bukhari, 3437, and; al-Muslim, 4483). So can we say that Abu Bakr angered the Prophet by having angered his beloved Fatima?

That whole issue on Fatima's denial to her property is so special that it has been termed "Fadak" in Arabic; it means the Property of Fatima al-Zahra. Because of the Shiite Muslims' love for the Prophet, Ali, and Fatima (peace be upon them all), one might wanna accuse Shiites for having narrated this hadith, but actually, that won't be true. The hadiths about Fadak are narrated in Bukhari and Muslim, both of which are respected Sunni Sources more than Shiite.

The exact hadith reads:

Narrated Ayesha(mother of the believers),'After the death of Allah's Apostle Fatima,the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr to give her the share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting)which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "the Holy Prophet had said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of the Holy prophet."

(from Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325, and Sahih Muslim, Book 19, hadith # 4351).

Soo... I vehemently disagree that the Sahabas are these SPECIAL beings who cannot be challenged or who always did the right thing.

And Abu Hurairah? C'mon now, marey. He knew the Prophet for hardly 3 yrs!!! THREE years, khorey! And yet he's narrated THOUSANDS of more hadiths than even Aisha, the Prophet's beloved wife who was *married* to him AND is known to have been his *favorite* wife. Doesn't that make you wonder something? Please don't say no. It'll tear my mind, literally, because it'll prove that too many Muslims fall for whatever they're told without questioning and thinking about it.

if a wife is doin sumthin more important to her than her husbands pleasure...
then she can just tell him that...dnt u think as husband and wife they should have that understanding?

Sure they should talk about things, they should sit down like mature adults and tell each other how they feel - but, you see, my focus is on hadiths here, and it's not exactly my personal opinion (I am a strong supporter of communication; hence, the hadith that "a wife is cursed for not having sex with her husband when HE wants her to" doesn't make sense to me).

im sure an understanding man will understand and agree with her...if she is sick..if she is too weak...she can refuse it simply..because its also haram to do something that will affect ur health...

Sure, but these claims aren't there in the hadiths. We're told that she can refuse him if she's sick or something, but there's no mention of her NOT being in the mood! What if she's just not mentally comfortable with her husband and needs time?

... Islam gives many rights to muslim women ....

PERFECT! I'm SO glad you brought women's rights in Islam up You see, I'm waiting for someone to list all of the rights that women have *in Islam* (that means give justification for all the rights you tell me about, be they from the Quran or hadiths). So I created this thread that I haven't had a chance to speak thoroughly in just. Can you please list women's rights *under Islam* in that thread? Here's the link.

http://pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=160

And please don't forget to tell us how you know that (in other words, you can't just say such and such person told me, or I know this deep inside me, or my grandfather told me, or my Quran teacher told me -- try to find the sources. If you cannot find the sources, ask someone else to search them for you. Manana in advance, khorey ).

nd then men's needs are different to a womens...
i hope u all understand what im sayin cuz i dnt wanna elaborate on tht..

No, I don't know what you mean. What are the different needs? That men want sex all the time and their wives not as much? So? Does that mean teh wife should always be sexually available to him? Why? What if she's not in teh mood? What if he's this vulgar beast who doesn't deserve to have his "needs" met by his wife? What if he beats her too much for her to apprecaite him in ANY way, or to respect him at ALL?

if she refuses him...nd keeps on refusing he might be obliged to commit adultery...

Sure. But what about when SHE wants it and he's not fulfilling her needs? ... There's no mention of a MAN being cursed for not addressing his wife's sexual needs, now, are there? Or do women have no such needs? Or are we supposed to suppress them?

if she refuses him...nd keeps on refusing he might be obliged to commit adultery...isnt thats whts goin on here in america?...
the wife gets too busy for husband..nd the husbands ends up cheating...yes its wrong for teh man to cheat but if the wife had attended to his needs he might have not cheated ...
soi hope u see my point through all this..

No, that's not what's going on in America. Men don't commit adultery here because their wives refuse them sex at home, LOL. Blame it on the woman again, blame it on the woman. She's too busy with her work, so her husband NATURALLY turns to other women, lol. And somehow, the other women aren't that busy. One wonders . . .

[Roshina]

the way u posted those hadith is just wrong...and talkin about a sahabah like that?
he was a companion of the holy prophet peace be upon him...

Just thought I'd remind you that in my post on the "Sahabah" (Abu Hurairah), I said:

Note who narrated the hadiths. Abu Hurairah is one of the least liked, least trusted, and most misogynistic hadith transmitters ever, and many many contemporary, and even classical, scholars on women’s Islamic status have a problem with him. He’s narrated many other hadith in which women are nothing but sexual objects of their husbands. Whether this is my own opinion or not is not important. I’ve only recently been noticing this myself about Abu Hurairah.

That means I didn't say anything about whether *I* like or dislike Abu Hurairah.

[darkwitch]

Just thought I'd remind you that in my post on the "Sahabah" (Abu Hurairah), I said:


That means I didn't say anything about whether *I* like or dislike Abu Hurairah.

[QUOTE=Qrratugai;7914]Hi, Darwitch! Welcome to the forum (if you're not that new, my apologies; I haven't been here as often as I would like to). Thanks for challenging my reply. I was hoping someone would.

those hadith are correct...and im also against marital rape...
but

Exactly what about them was "wrong"? Saying that there are hadiths that justify marital rape? Saying that most anti-women hadiths are narrated by Abu Hurairah? But that's a fact. I'm sorry that most Muslims don't know this, I really am, but what can I do about it?


What did I say about him that was "like that"? And why CAN'T I talk about him or any other "sahaba" "like that," whatever "like that" means, khorey? being a friend of the Prophet (pbuh) doesn't make them infallible or any more perfect than you and I are, sweetums.


relating to someother posts u made...u said..
that who are we to judge other msulims...
so who r u ?
to judge abu hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him)?
and u said that u recently have discovered taht...so ur associating urself with it arent u?
im nt sayin he was infallible...every human sins..
but im sayin that the man was a friend of the Prophet nd was proved trustworthy.....
all these hadith that have been collected...they didnt just listen to a person sayin sumthin ....they went after sources they did background checks on teh people...so obviously many of his hadeeth are in great books likes riyadh saliheen....






In fact, did you know that when the Prophet passed away (pbuh), his daughter (Fatima, peace be upon her), came to Abu Bakr and said, "I want the property that my father won in the Battle of Khyber," Abu Bakr told her, "Sorry. No property for you because your father told me that prophets don't leave inheritance." Fatime fought him about it, cried about it, and remained upset with him until death. There's a hadith in which the Prophet said, "Fatima is a part of me, and whoever angers her, angers me” (al-Bukhari, 3437, and; al-Muslim, 4483). So can we say that Abu Bakr angered the Prophet by having angered his beloved Fatima?

That whole issue on Fatima's denial to her property is so special that it has been termed "Fadak" in Arabic; it means the Property of Fatima al-Zahra. Because of the Shiite Muslims' love for the Prophet, Ali, and Fatima (peace be upon them all), one might wanna accuse Shiites for having narrated this hadith, but actually, that won't be true. The hadiths about Fadak are narrated in Bukhari and Muslim, both of which are respected Sunni Sources more than Shiite.

The exact hadith reads:

Narrated Ayesha(mother of the believers),'After the death of Allah's Apostle Fatima,the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr to give her the share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting)which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "the Holy Prophet had said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqah (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of the Holy prophet."

(from Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325, and Sahih Muslim, Book 19, hadith # 4351).

i have never heard that so i dnt have any maloomat in it..
but inshallah if i do hear i will surely tell u darlin...

Soo... I vehemently disagree that the Sahabas are these SPECIAL beings who cannot be challenged or who always did the right thing.


And Abu Hurairah? C'mon now, marey. He knew the Prophet for hardly 3 yrs!!! THREE years, khorey! And yet he's narrated THOUSANDS of more hadiths than even Aisha, the Prophet's beloved wife who was *married* to him AND is known to have been his *favorite* wife. Doesn't that make you wonder something? Please don't say no. It'll tear my mind, literally, because it'll prove that too many Muslims fall for whatever they're told without questioning and thinking about it.



Sure they should talk about things, they should sit down like mature adults and tell each other how they feel - but, you see, my focus is on hadiths here, and it's not exactly my personal opinion (I am a strong supporter of communication; hence, the hadith that "a wife is cursed for not having sex with her husband when HE wants her to" doesn't make sense to me).




Sure, but these claims aren't there in the hadiths. We're told that she can refuse him if she's sick or something, but there's no mention of her NOT being in the mood! What if she's just not mentally comfortable with her husband and needs time?



PERFECT! I'm SO glad you brought women's rights in Islam up You see, I'm waiting for someone to list all of the rights that women have *in Islam* (that means give justification for all the rights you tell me about, be they from the Quran or hadiths). So I created this thread that I haven't had a chance to speak thoroughly in just. Can you please list women's rights *under Islam* in that thread? Here's the link.

http://pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=160

i will try my best to post some up INSHALLAH

And please don't forget to tell us how you know that (in other words, you can't just say such and such person told me, or I know this deep inside me, or my grandfather told me, or my Quran teacher told me -- try to find the sources. If you cannot find the sources, ask someone else to search them for you. Manana in advance, khorey ).




No, I don't know what you mean. What are the different needs? That men want sex all the time and their wives not as much? So? Does that mean teh wife should always be sexually available to him? Why? What if she's not in teh mood? What if he's this vulgar beast who doesn't deserve to have his "needs" met by his wife? What if he beats her too much for her to apprecaite him in ANY way, or to respect him at ALL?


Sure. But what about when SHE wants it and he's not fulfilling her needs? ... There's no mention of a MAN being cursed for not addressing his wife's sexual needs, now, are there? Or do women have no such needs? Or are we supposed to suppress them?



No, that's not what's going on in America. Men don't commit adultery here because their wives refuse them sex at home, LOL. Blame it on the woman again, blame it on the woman. She's too busy with her work, so her husband NATURALLY turns to other women, lol. And somehow, the other women aren't that busy. One wonders . . .

i hope this website clears ur misconception...

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/no_marital_rape.htm

im kinda runnin late...i gtg rite nw but inshallah lookin foward to ur reply...
have a good day..
khudai paman sis!