Intra-marital Rape

[Dinosaur Khan]

What do you think about it? Do you agree that a husband can not rape his wife or husband has an absolute right to enjoy his wife's body even against her will and less so by use of force.
What islam says about this matter?

[Master Khan]

Well a women have her right aswell.

[Talal]

its disgusting to force a woman into doing something she doesnt want to do. Our people dont care about Islam in other matters but when it comes to women they'll knock themselves out in twisting the words and meanings till they have turned into something despicable. Women and men are born as equals, they both have their rights..this kinda thing should never be forced

[Dinosaur Khan]

I hope you will not trying to ruin topics purposelessly in future.
I usually dont give responses to abusive ,over-aggressive or sarcastic posts. But by judging your intentions, i decided to post. So in future i will not respond to non-sense.

[Roshina]

Marital Rape

I'm confused about the title of this thread. If it's about a husband raping his wife, or rape in a marriage, I'd just simply call it marital rape.

What do you think about it?

I don't think anyone has the right to forcefully get ANYONE to do anything. So, no, I don't think the husband has any right to force his wife into "intimacy." It's such a cowardly thing to do.

What islam says about this matter?

That's difficult to conclude, and, as with *every other topic in Islam (with a focus on women)*, scholars haven't come to one conclusion. That, of course, is if by "Islam," you mean Quran and hadith. If you mean just the Quran, then I'd say the pro-marital rape hadiths have no Quranic basis; if you mean just the hadiths, I'd say they're totally okay with it.

See, the QURAN seems to suggest that women cannot be forced into anything and doesn't seem to permit (marital) rape, or rape at all, of course. It considers men and women "garments" of one another (Quran, 2:187); it says that God has created "mates" for us on earth in order that we may live in harmony with each other (Quran, 4:1); and it tells us that God has put love and mercy in our hearts for one another so that we may dwell in peace and tranquility (30:21) -- among many other nice and kind things about women.

But, unfortunately, many authentic hadiths make women nothing but objects (I'll prove it here with regards to marital rape and in the thread on women in Islam as well). So we have no choice but to conclude that these hadiths don't consider it "rape" when a man forces himself on his wife in order to get pleasure from her. If they weren't authentic, one would say, "Well, yeah, they don't matter." But these ARE authentic. And that's a big problem.

Consider the following hadiths, for example.

~ Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: When a woman spends the night away from the bed of her husband, the angels curse her until morning.

~ Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is in the heaven is displeased with her until he (her husband) is pleased with her.

~ Abu Huraira (Allah he pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may, peace be upon him) as saying: When a man invites his wife to his bed and she does not come, and he (the husband) spends the sight being angry with her, the angels curse her until morning.

(All of the above appear in the Book of Marriage in Sahih Muslim’s; it is chapter 20, hadith #s 3366 – 3368.)

From Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, hadiths 1201-122, we read the following:
~ Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If a man Invites his wife to sleep with him and she refuses to come to him, then the angels send their curses on her till morning."

~ Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If a woman spends the night deserting her husband's bed (does not sleep with him), then the angels send their curses on her till she comes back (to her husband)."

Trimidhi has similar hadiths.
Other versions say that the woman must NEVER refuse sex to him, even if she’s in the stove (i.e., kitchen), or on the back of a camel, or tending to her children, etc., etc.

Note who narrated the hadiths. Abu Hurairah is one of the least liked, least trusted, and most misogynistic hadith transmitters ever, and many many contemporary, and even classical, scholars on women’s Islamic status have a problem with him. He’s narrated many other hadith in which women are nothing but sexual objects of their husbands. Whether this is my own opinion or not is not important. I’ve only recently been noticing this myself about Abu Hurairah.

So, the above hadiths clearly make it the woman’s obligation to serve her husband’s needs. They also don’t say ANYTHING about the woman’s needs for intimacy, or the man’s obligation to please his wife as well.

The commentaries on these hadiths say that "no, the woman CAN refuse but she has to have a legitimate reason, like some illness or menstruation or something."
Yeah, okay, but if she refuses him, there MUST be a reason. What if she's just not in the mood? What if she doesn't like him and is never turned on by him and doesn't wanna let him touch her because he mistreats her, or doesn't know how to respect her? What if she's just not comfortable at that particular moment? What if she's busy doing something *that she considers* more important than pleasing her husband's sexual needs at that particular time? But some hadiths make it obvious that even if she's "on the back of a camel" or "at the stove," she cannot refuse him. That's to mean, I'd suspect, that no matter WHAT she's doing, she MUST not say no.

I'm about to give the views of some scholars, so you'll see that these hadiths really have created much disturbance in the minds of most scholars, as well as controversy, and scholars are left with a desperate need to support it, since the hadiths above are classified as authentic.

[Roshina]

Wives' obligation towards satisfying their husbands' needs

The topic has been one of the most widely discussed ones in Islamic scholarship from the beginning of Islamic history. And even today, scholars don’t agree on what rights the woman has when it comes to sex. Al-Ghazali has written volumes on the matter, and, according to him, it’s the man’s obligation to make sure that the woman enjoys it. (Unfortunately, there’s no specific hadith text to support his claims.) Quoting him: “The husband should not be pre-occupied with his own satisfaction, because the woman will often be shy.” (That’s from his book The Proper Conduct of Marriage, p.75.)
AND YET, also according to him, if the woman is NOT satisfied, it’s because of the difficulty of satisfying such a claim. (That’s from the same source, same page.) I'm looking more into his work to get a better understanding of what's up with his conflicting views.

Then we have Ibn Abideen, who said, “After the first time, intercourse is the husband’s right, not the wife’s.” (Radda al-Muhtar, vol. 4,p.379. The author provides contested perspectives from the Hanafi perspective on the rights of husbands, wives, and the husband’s concubines (female slaves) with regards to intercourse.)

Ibn Kathir is known to have said similar things regarding these hadiths, but then again, he's also one of tho scholars and commentators who believe men are just naturally better than women (according to him, that's why women aren't allowed to serve as qadis, judges, in Islam). However, he says that the man isn't allowed to beat up his wife *unless* she disobeys him, which includes her unwillingness to satisfy his sexual whims.

The reasons given by the scholars who agree that the woman is absolutely forbidden to refuse sex to her husband (unless she’s on menstruation or is ill otherwise) are astonishing. It’s interesting to see their need to defend their stance, and, my God! Most actually believe that it’s the woman’s job BECAUSE her husband gave her so much in dowry that she cannot refuse him. These scholars agree that when the husband gives her dowry, the wife must always submit to him sexually (and in other ways as well, but that’s another topic for another time). For instance, Al-Shafi, founder of Shafi School (Sunni), considers dowry “the vulva’s price” (in Arabic, “thaman al-bud’a”). He’s just one of the many who terms it this, though. The Quranic verse they use to support their claim is verse 4:24, which says:

“And (also forbidden to you in marriage are) all married women except those whom your right hands possess.… Then as to those women whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.”

“Those whom you profit by” has somehow come to mean that the husband is to give his wives their dowry *because* he “profits” from them, and that profit is clearly nothing but sexual pleasure, according to many. (Some actually translate it to "pleasure," not "profit.")

Another verse used to support their claim is verse 2:223:
"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand.”

(According to al-Ghazali and a few others, the part about “do some good act for yourself beforehand” implies foreplay, or making sure that the wife is also in the mood. However, since it seems only like a SUGGESTION and not a command, the scholars don’t take it too seriously.)

Hence, according to most classical scholars (and hence many today, since what the scholars in the past said is supposed to be the "truth," even though it may just have been their own perceptions of women in their times and societies), the dower is given by the husband in exchange for his dominion over her sexual and reproductive capacity.

One last thing. Did you know that the term “nikah” literally means “intercourse”? Well, now you know. It’s often translated to “marriage” because the understanding is that in a real marriage, the couple *must* have sex, and it’s considered not just necessary but close to obligatory in order for the marriage to be fully accepted. But literally, it means that.

A professor of mine shared a joke with us when we were talking about women, marriage, and women's obligation towards their husbands (which includes submitting to their needs). He said, "A Pakistani friend of mine invited me and an Egyptian friend of ours to his 'nikah' and said, 'I really want you to come to my nikah.' And My Egyptian friend was stunned that he'd said that and said, 'No, no,' until it was clarified that he meant marriage ceremony."
LOL!

[Roshina]

^LOL!
when your done with your research. Be sure to post here so I know my rights!

lol. Okay... but it's hard to define our rights clearly :D I can only tell you what different people said and why they said it and what the responses have been to their views ... nothing more than that :P If we go by what they've said, then the conclusion in my opinion is this:

Since each one has said SOMEthing nice about women, EACH one believes in at least *some* rights of women (under Islam), those rights can amount to a looooooot of rights So just take all of those rights. If you stick with the view of just ONE scholar, you're screwed, 'cause each one has said something that will boil the brains of any woman, whether educated or uneducated. So just take the best things from each of them. (No, really. Especially when justifications of their views are grounded IN the Quran. Then you have a good argument.)

P.S. You can help me with the research by studying those sources as well, so you can correct me when I'm wrong and elaborate on the points I don't give too much focus to. Ka sanga?

[IamDZJ]

the word "no" is a very short and straight forward one. if you don't know what that stands for than we have alot more to worry about.

[IamDZJ]

^ or u r easily tickled.

[IamDZJ]

make sense or else.

[IamDZJ]

My apologies to any one who was offended by the original post.

[IamDZJ]

I am handsome and I am Pashtun, so be nice to me.

get lost.

[Laila]

I am handsome and I am Pashtun, so be nice to me.

What makes you think you are handsome??!!

Do you have amazingly beautiful colored eyes? Do you have a killer smile? Are you tall and tanned? Are you well educated and sweet? Are you amazing at the attan? huh??? jk jk :P

[IamDZJ]

i hate good looking idiots. they are called "pretty boys" and in my list of Seriously Annoying Things ,they come right after 13 year old girls who are obsessed with pink.

[Laila]

Yes. I have all the above.

Send me your pics so we can get married now.

OH, you have all of that.....thats too good to be true

hmmm.....You gotta prove to me that you have those qualifications :P