Does God exist ?

[ozymandias]

God exists.....according to my little knowledge....God must exixt....can a simple building could be built without the help of labourers and workers?

What created your god?

even the smallest and simplest thing we see around is invented by someone....

No, really. What created your god?

.it is impossible that something is made without any creator.....

We get it. Now what created your god?

a simple table cannot be made without a carpinter,similarly...

Sure, and compared to a table, the universe is pretty damn complex. One would think that the creator of the universe would be similarly more complex than the creator of the table -- so who or what made your god?

it requires a black smith to make a knife or sword etc....Thus the the Earth, The Glaxies, and all the things between the sky and earth are created/made by Someone...and he is the one....The one and Only ...if they were two or three there would be possiblity of a quarrel....it Shows there is the one and only God behind the creation of the universe....so God exists.....

Your logic is weak and faulty.

So, why do you worship your god, and not his creator? or his creators creator? or the creator of that creator? Using your 'logic' these additional creators all must exist, as you are simply replacing the relatively simple universe just existing with a relatively complex deity existing.

[ozymandias]

Simply I 'd say:

If God does not exist, no problem for believers and non-believers!
But
If God really exists, then what will be happened with non-believers on a specific up-coming Day???????

Pascal's wager cannot be used to prove the existence of a god. Period. The wager does not work that way. Your logic holds up (ignoring the obvious flaws like 'what if worshiping the wrong god is worse than not worshiping?'), but does not prove a god exists, simply that you should believe in that god -- again ignoring all the drastic downsides to religion.

[ozymandias]

What a lousy reason to be in a religion. "I wanna cover my ass so that when I get to heaven, Peter won't tell me 'sorry *******, you have the wrong religion, off to hell with you."

"The Hell Law says that Hell is reserved exclusively for those who believe in it. Furthermore, the lowest Rung in Hell is reserved for those who believe in it on the supposition that they'll go there if they don't." Honest Book of Truth; The Gospel According to Fred, 3:1

[Badlun]

Great discussion. I am poroud of having Pashtuns like Pir Rokhan.

Those who believe that God exists may argue with Pir and those who not may argue too. He as usual I think just wana know what we say about the topic and then we will have a surprise what he belieevs or thinks.

The same he did in another forum where he was highly in favour of Taliban and then at the end we could know his real thoughts.
I think he just want to generate a creative discussion on controversial themes. Instead of labelling him this and that, please argue.

Personally I am of the opinion that its not impoprtant to discuss whether God exists or not but what idea we have of God. For me God is a supreme energy. a supernatural entity which is and goes beyond all the human, natural and physical limits. God is the epitome of beauty, virtue, justice, happiness, knowledge and a complete model of all good things that we can imagine or cant imagine. God is existence and beyond. God is nature and beyond.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I believe in existence of God. And this is based on the proof from Qur'an:
O mankind! Worship your Lord (Allah), Who created you and those who were before you so that you may acquire taqwa (piety).
Who has made the earth a resting place for you, and the sky as a canopy, and sent down water (rain) from the sky and brought forth therewith fruits as a provision for you. Then do not set up rivals unto Allah (in worship) while you know (that He alone has the right to be worshipped."
Qur’an, 2:21-22


Several scholars of Tafsir, like Ar-Razi and others, used this Ayat (verse) as an argument for the existence of the Creator, and it is a most worthy method of argument. Indeed, whoever ponders over the things that exist, the higher and lower creatures, their various shapes, colors, behavior, benefits and ecological roles, then he will realize the ability, wisdom, knowledge, perfection and majesty of the Creator. Once a Bedouin was asked about the evidence to Allah’s existence, he responded: "All praise is due to Allah! The camel’s dung testifies to the existence of the camel, and the track testifies to the fact that someone was walking. A sky that holds the giant stars, a land that has fairways and a sea that has waves, does not all of this testify that the Most Kind, Most Knowledgeable exists?" [Ar-Razi 2:91]


Hence, whoever gazes at the sky in its immensity, its expanse, and the various kinds of planets in it, some of which appear stationary in the sky – whoever gazes at the seas that surround the land from all sides, and the mountains that were placed on the earth to stabilize it, so that whoever lives on land, whatever their shape and color, are able to live and thrive – whoever reads Allah’s statement:
"And among the mountains are streaks white and red, of varying colours and (others) very black. And likewise, men and ad-Dawwabb (moving, living creatures, beasts) and cattle are of various colours. It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah." (35:27-28)
Whoever thinks about the running rivers that travel from area to area bringing benefit, whoever ponders over what Allah has created on earth; various animals and plants of different tastes, scents, shapes and colors that are a result of unity between land and water, whoever thinks about all of this then he will realize that these facts testify to the existence of the Creator, His perfect ability, wisdom, mercy, kindness, generosity and His overall compassion for His creation. There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah, nor is there a Lord besides Him, upon Him we rely and to Him we turn in repentance. There are numerous Ayat in the Qur’an on this subject.

[شمله ور خراساني]

[ozymandias]

I believe in existence of God. And this is based on the proof from Qur'an:

O mankind! Worship your Lord (Allah), Who created you and those who were before you so that you may acquire taqwa (piety).
Who has made the earth a resting place for you, and the sky as a canopy, and sent down water (rain) from the sky and brought forth therewith fruits as a provision for you. Then do not set up rivals unto Allah (in worship) while you know (that He alone has the right to be worshipped."
Qur’an, 2:21-22

What leads you to believe the Koran is an appropriate source of evidence?

Several scholars of Tafsir, like Ar-Razi and others, used this Ayat (verse) as an argument for the existence of the Creator, and it is a most worthy method of argument.

Not so, but I would be interested in why you think it is.

Indeed, whoever ponders over the things that exist, the higher and lower creatures, their various shapes, colors, behavior, benefits and ecological roles, then he will realize the ability, wisdom, knowledge, perfection and majesty of the Creator.

Why would you think that? I would think that the more you ponder the variety of life, you would see how everything appears to be the result of evolution rather than intelligent design.

Once a Bedouin was asked about the evidence to Allah’s existence, he responded: "All praise is due to Allah! The camel’s dung testifies to the existence of the camel, and the track testifies to the fact that someone was walking. A sky that holds the giant stars, a land that has fairways and a sea that has waves, does not all of this testify that the Most Kind, Most Knowledgeable exists?" [Ar-Razi 2:91]

No. It does not. These things are all possible to exist without a creator -- in fact that is by far the most simple explanation.

Hence, whoever gazes at the sky in its immensity, its expanse, and the various kinds of planets in it, some of which appear stationary in the sky – whoever gazes at the seas that surround the land from all sides, and the mountains that were placed on the earth to stabilize it, so that whoever lives on land, whatever their shape and color, are able to live and thrive – whoever reads Allah’s statement:
"And among the mountains are streaks white and red, of varying colours and (others) very black. And likewise, men and ad-Dawwabb (moving, living creatures, beasts) and cattle are of various colours. It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah." (35:27-28)
Whoever thinks about the running rivers that travel from area to area bringing benefit, whoever ponders over what Allah has created on earth; various animals and plants of different tastes, scents, shapes and colors that are a result of unity between land and water, whoever thinks about all of this then he will realize that these facts testify to the existence of the Creator, His perfect ability, wisdom, mercy, kindness, generosity and His overall compassion for His creation. There is no deity worthy of worship except Allah, nor is there a Lord besides Him, upon Him we rely and to Him we turn in repentance. There are numerous Ayat in the Qur’an on this subject.

You present a lot of opinion, but no actual evidence or proof. I look at the same 'evidence' and see no reason to assume a supernatural deity at all. Evidence and proofs are not supposed to work that way, and logic does not allow for the random inclusion of unrelated facts that only increase complexity but do not provide for a better fit with the measured facts.

[شمله ور خراساني]

For me, those are sufficient to believe in existence of god. Not for you obviosuly.

[ozymandias]

Yes he does.

Care to add anything *productive* or *constructive* to the conversation?

[ozymandias]

Its about faith. You have to believe in the afterlife and etc.

You don't have to.

[Nadir Shah]

A more pertinent question is:

'Is God relevant?'.

The existence or lack thereof of a Creator is a purely theoretic discussion. It is obvious to any sane mind that the concepts of fatalism or determinism are the killers of human intellect and reason. So the question reduces to:

1 What unsolved problem of the humanity that the people of reason from Descartes and Spinoza to Marx and Lenin have left unsolved that we need a Creator to solve?

2 What is the utility of the Creator's discourse in the world today?

3 Why do we need to solve the questions which are purely theoretical?

[Nadir Shah]

4 How does the concept of 'God' conform with the realities of our lives and of what value is it if we are to achieve our goals as humans and as a nation?

[Zakiah]

God exists and its a fact. get over it.

Just look all around you, there are billions of signs, evidence, proofs. Whoever denies the existence of God, is but deluded.


‘Blessed is He in whose hands is the Kingdom- who is powerful over everything- who has created death and life, so that He might test you as to which among you [proves that he] is good in conduct.’
(al-Mulk 67: 1-2)

‘Whosoever chooses to follow guidance, follows it for his own good; whosoever goes astray, goes astray to his own loss.’
(al-Isra’ 17: 15)

-------------
‘All praise be to God alone,
the Lord of all the worlds,
the All-Merciful, the Ever Mercy-giving,
the Master of the Day of Judgement.
You alone we worship, and You alone we ask for help.
Guide us on the Straight Path,
The path of whom You have blessed, not of those who incur You anger,
Nor of those who go astray.’
(al-Fatihah 1: 1-7)

[ozymandias]

God exists and its a fact. get over it.

Facts can be proven, so by definition the existence of a god cannot be a fact. It may still be true

Just look all around you, there are billions of signs, evidence, proofs.

I've been looking around me my whole life, and have even opened up discussions with believers like you, and yet not once have I seen a sign, evidence, or a proof. Am I looking in the wrong places? Or are you just implying that you call things that are not 'proof' 'proof'?

Whoever denies the existence of God, is but deluded.

Whoever accepts the existence of God, is but deluded.

‘Blessed is He in whose hands is the Kingdom- who is powerful over everything- who has created death and life, so that He might test you as to which among you [proves that he] is good in conduct.’
(al-Mulk 67: 1-2)

‘Whosoever chooses to follow guidance, follows it for his own good; whosoever goes astray, goes astray to his own loss.’
(al-Isra’ 17: 15)

-------------
‘All praise be to God alone,
the Lord of all the worlds,
the All-Merciful, the Ever Mercy-giving,
the Master of the Day of Judgement.
You alone we worship, and You alone we ask for help.
Guide us on the Straight Path,
The path of whom You have blessed, not of those who incur You anger,
Nor of those who go astray.’
(al-Fatihah 1: 1-7)

What was the point of those quotes? To a non-believer they mean absolutely nothing, and 'prove' even less -- and in fact undermine your own claims by giving the appearance of irrational and illogical thought processes -- even more than your early claims in this post.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Oh okay. Well, if you can't quote me, then that means you're just lying because I have never, ever, ever said those things. I know better than to force people into a box I create for them; I'm not the one who goes, "Wait, you're an X-ist! So that means you beleive this and that and that and that and this too!" I know that someone who her/himself puts in Category Y *may* be Y-ist but that doesn't mean that she/he adheres to every single creed that other people in that category adhere to.

i already quoted you in the other thread where you revealed your kufr. You want me to fish up your nasty posts everytime I reply to you? Have much more entertaining stuff I can think of doing when I am on PF.