Irshad Manji versus Reza Aslan

[ScimitarXEdge]

Ali Shariati had that great concept "Westoxification" - I really like that word he created which explained the experiences of an entire generation exposed to bad influences from America mainly, and the West.

But: he was a socialist, for which I cannot forgive him !
Too leftist for me.
There should be better, stronger Islamic models than Ali Shariati in my opinion.

I'm glad for what Scimitar wrote here, so as not to have to sit through a vapid debate.

Always let us know the truth about any of these characters who dubbed "authorities".
MUCH appreciated analyses.

P.S> - Just saw those first replies. UGH!
How disgusting!
It's unhealthy to even look at her. For sure, whoever said she's collecting a big paycheck for her toeing the anti-Islamic party line was exactly on target.
Good points, everyone!

Ali Shari'ati was never a socialist; in fact he has a book which refutes Socialism and Marxism. I think you misread him being a SOCIOLOGIST as being a Socialist.

[ScimitarXEdge]

He had this odd idea that sort of painted me like those folks that live in the New Jersey enclaves and only know other Muslims and develop a deep distrust and hatred for anything that looks, smells, feels American. He then proceeded to accuse me of being a pan Islamist because the ummah was my mosque. I still am lost in the language of his psychoanalysis of me. It appears to change every week.

Ok well I know he has this tactic where he tries to represent things along ethnic lines; which shows he is wholly ignorant of anything he speaks about.

But he also tries to make this silly caricatures of things; like allegedly I'm a covert Arab Nationalist, not sure how he derived that.


I find it strange he refers to you as a Pan Islamist; since I'm the one who always cites Sayyid Jamaluddin Al-Afghani and 'Ali Shari'ati.Who were in fact Pan-Islamists. Although Al-Afghani is more from a Sunni tradition an Shari'ati a Shi'i one.

I guess Toramana is using a very broad definition of Arab Nationalist; one which draws inspiration from Persian and Afghan Philosophers heh.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Ok well I know he has this tactic where he tries to represent things along ethnic lines; which shows he is wholly ignorant of anything he speaks about.

But he also tries to make this silly caricatures of things; like allegedly I'm a covert Arab Nationalist, not sure how he derived that.


I find it strange he refers to you as a Pan Islamist; since I'm the one who always cites Sayyid Jamaluddin Al-Afghani and 'Ali Shari'ati.Who were in fact Pan-Islamists. Although Al-Afghani is more from a Sunni tradition an Shari'ati a Shi'i one.

I guess Toramana is using a very broad definition of Arab Nationalist; one which draws inspiration from Persian and Afghan Philosophers heh.

I dont know man, I think some mullah in the village probably smacked his ankles when his peran tombaan was hanging over his ankles or something. Or at least one of those guys bullied him in high school. So now he is projecting onto anyone that even has a hint, whiff, or scent of Islam on them. I just ignore him and figure he will calm down one day. I have a friend like this with the same issues and usually when I ignore him he runs out of steam. Every now and then when he pulls out the Manji stick, I have to break it.

[Catya Sher]

I had never heard of this awful Manji - even the name bothered me from the start.
Is she popular ? In which circles, I wonder?
Scary !
It's good to learn what she's about.

[ScimitarXEdge]

He (Toramana) espouses a certain affinity for Dharmic Philosophies and Religions; I think that MIGHT be a clue.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I had never heard of this awful Manji - even the name bothered me from the start.
Is she popular ? In which circles, I wonder?
Scary !
It's good to learn what she's about.

She had her 15 minutes of Fame like several years ago, because she basically uses the Qur'an to justify going against the Qur'an

it's funny in her video she speaks of Mullahs who misuse it by being selective with the verses (gives no example either); but then in many of her discourses she too selectively emphasizes verses?

She's one of those individuals who try to call their agenda "Reform" when really they're arguing dissolution. not reform.

[Catya Sher]

Scimitar, I know he wasn't a sociologist!
I studied him a fair amount though some years back.
I thought I remembered him characterized as "Islamic-Marxist".
The horrific Mujahidin-i-Khalq of Massoud and Maryam Rajavi took their inspiration from him.
That's enough to give me a big fit right there at the sound of his name!
Some scholars DID play down Shariati's socialist side in order to make him fit in more with the Islamic revolutionaries.
We have to assess this carefully.
You wouldn't want to be with a Marxist, would you?

[ScimitarXEdge]

um He was a sociologist, he wasn't a socialist

Just because others attempted to characterize him as such doesn't mean that's how he characterized himself.

I would find it hard to see how he was socialist given many of his books oppose marxism and socialism.

This is the title of one of 'Ali Shari'ati's books

"Marxism and Other Western Fallacies : An Islamic Critique"

I can't see how the content here could ever been seen to favor Marxism or Socialism.

[ScimitarXEdge]

watch Toramana jump in here and now claim I'm really a Persian Nationalist because I'm into 'Ali Shari'ati

heh

[Catya Sher]

Scimitar!
You're very bright.
But also what about Al-Afghani's having been inducted into the FREEMASONS!
I read that this morning.
It's believed that he worked for THEM.
He used their motto, as I recall.
There may have been TWO agendas with him.

Some people think he worked for the British - and question why he went to Egypt at all, Egypt having been under British control at that time.

Then, what's funny too is that his ideas have been used by the American Neo-Cons to justify a huge alert about anyone advocating the return of the Caliphate.
TODAY! So many years later, they brought him back to terrorize any sincere people wishing for the good old days.

Very helpful about Manji. These are the only people whose voices get much coverage on this topic: those who parrot the line most wished for by those same Neo-Cons/American power elites/Bilderbergers/their slaves

[ScimitarXEdge]

there are numerous claims about Al-Afghani

I'm a believer such claims against Al-Afghani were levied probably by rivals; mainly traditionalist scholars who wanted to espouse the doctrine of Taqlid Mutlaq (absolute blind following). Sayyid Jamaluddin Al-Afghani's teachings were dangerous to them because it would upset their power base and require them to actually take social responsibility rather than sponge off of the populous under the guise of religiosity.

I'm not sure how he could have "worked for the British" when he was urging Egyptians to rise up against British Imperialism.

I think judging Sayyid Jamaluddin Al-Afghani requires actually looking at his arguments; not rumors, this sort of approach is very Anti-Intellectual

I would argue that Qutbism is what Neo-Cons are using as their scapegoat.

[Catya Sher]

Shariati wasn't an all-out Marxist but some kind of hybrid between the two.

Perhaps he was suitably vague, too: maybe he didn't spell out everything so clearly. Like all things to all people.

If he were really anti-Marxist, why wouldn't his writings be promoted by the Islamic Republic govt? They never liked him.
I believe they squashed him right away as soon as they gathered enough power.
Certainly he is not in official favor today. This is why, I'm sure.

That IS funny about the Persian nationalist!
But you know, this man has an obsession with ARABS, for some weird reason.
He never once mentions hating Teheran or Iranian anything.
If he has, it hasn't been frequent.

It's the Arabs he hates with a passion. WHY?>>>

[ScimitarXEdge]

Catya,

so far it seems your pinnings of him being a Marxist is based on what others may have said or groups which are Marxist that cite him as an influence.

Read his books, I can guarantee he wasn't a Marxist.

The reason his writings aren't promoted by the Islamic Republic Government is because he shuns Walayat Faqih, a doctrine developed during the Safawid era which believes that the Theological Savants have absolute hold on people's lives. The Islamic Government of Iran believe in Walayat Faqih. Which itself is a baseless doctrine.

This is why one needs to actually study his literature; it's all about Islam, just not Mullocracy.

[graveyardofempires]

I had never heard of this awful Manji - even the name bothered me from the start.
Is she popular ? In which circles, I wonder?
Scary !
It's good to learn what she's about.

she reminds me of jumanji

[Catya Sher]

Well it was the British who expelled him from India.
Why on earth would he have gone to another British domain, Egypt, where he would already be on the watch list clearly?
I don't know, I have always had mixed feelings about him.
His IDEAS sound nice.
But WHO was HE himself? That's the shady part to me.
I want to look at this more carefully.
I'm going to go back and read some more details and we can continue about him.
The point is to get to the real truth whatever that may be.
Now the Qutbists took inspiration from him, right, through his devoted disciple Abduh?