Do Pakhtuns have a Leader?

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

My unwavering belief in this.

A leader is not measured by his academic qualifications, or his lineage or his physical strength or even by his communication skills. A leader is measured subjectively and intangibly by the distance (or lack there-of) a group of people feel to him ideologically, emotionally and socially. There is a good Farsi poem about this which is not presently in my mind.


For this reason, the real leaders of the Pashtuns at present whether you like it or not, are the Taliban, since these people are living amongst the Pashtuns in the mountains of Kunar and deserts of Kandahar. They may not be academically or even logically intelligent or come from a respected tribal lineage or posses any physical strength but the average Pashtun relates more to them than any royal lineage or aristocrat Karzai or Ghani.

Now if this leader happens to be astute, then you are lucky, but if he happens to be an idiot like the present Taliban, then you're screwed.


For us Tajiks, Shahid Massoud was a real leader (and thankfully he was astute too) yesterday, and Atta Muhamad Noor is a real leader today. Rabbani, Fahim, and these guys are not even worthy enough to clean Shahid Massoud’s or Atta’s shoes.

i have heard many things about Atta...good and bad

can u care to elaborate on him...and be objective as much as possible in ur analysis of his strengths and faults

[Khidr]

i have heard many things about Atta...good and bad

can u care to elaborate on him...and be objective as much as possible in ur analysis of his strengths and faults

I hate to hijack this thread brother so I will keep it brief.

Basically:

Bad:

Atta's not as much of a nice guy and as much of a "Sufi" like Massoud. So he will kill you if you come in the way of his goal.
Less of an idealogue than Shahid Massoud.

Good:

Probably more politically astute than Shahid Massoud.
Defintely more Tajik-centric and nationalist than Shahid Massoud.
Yet smart enough to have a big umbrella and have many Pashtuns and young Uzbeks under his wing. Has not won over the Hazaras, yet.
Less of an idealogue and more flexible than Shahid Massoud.
Progressive, yet devout Muslim.


In Summary.
He can never even come close or replace the love we feel for Massoud, but he can replace Massoud as a leader. Massoud never wanted to be solely a "Tajik Leader" but became one. Atta on the other hand wants to be a Tajik leader and has basically become one.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

I hate to hijack this thread brother so I will keep it brief.

Basically:

Bad:

Atta's not as much of a nice guy and as much of a "Sufi" like Massoud. So he will kill you if you come in the way of his goal.
Less of an idealogue than Shahid Massoud.

Good:

Probably more politically astute than Shahid Massoud.
Defintely more Tajik-centric and nationalist than Shahid Massoud.
Yet smart enough to have a big umbrella and have many Pashtuns and young Uzbeks under his wing. Has not won over the Hazaras, yet.
Less of an idealogue and more flexible than Shahid Massoud.
Progressive, yet devout Muslim.


In Summary.
He can never even come close or replace the love we feel for Massoud, but he can replace Massoud as a leader. Massoud never wanted to be solely a "Tajik Leader" but became one. Atta on the other hand wants to be a Tajik leader and has basically become one.

im surprised the uzbeks support him since he displaced their dustom from mazar

i have heard he is responsible for many killings of pashtuns secretly and persecuting them

has he made separatist remarks?

[Baygham]

My unwavering belief in this.

A leader is not measured by his academic qualifications, or his lineage or his physical strength or even by his communication skills. A leader is measured subjectively and intangibly by the distance (or lack there-of) a group of people feel to him ideologically, emotionally and socially. There is a good Farsi poem about this which is not presently in my mind.


For this reason, the real leaders of the Pashtuns at present whether you like it or not, are the Taliban, since these people are living amongst the Pashtuns in the mountains of Kunar and deserts of Kandahar. They may not be academically or even logically intelligent or come from a respected tribal lineage or posses any physical strength but the average Pashtun relates more to them than any royal lineage or aristocrat Karzai or Ghani.

Now if this leader happens to be astute, then you are lucky, but if he happens to be an idiot like the present Taliban, then you're screwed.


For us Tajiks, Shahid Massoud was a real leader (and thankfully he was astute too) yesterday, and Atta Muhamad Noor is a real leader today. Rabbani, Fahim, and these guys are not even worthy enough to clean Shahid Massoud’s or Atta’s shoes.

I remember a story narrated by someone of Abdul Khadir - Jilani.

It is said that when he spoke, the audience would be spellbound and enraptured by his words and personality. One afternoon a large crowd had gathered to listen to him. He was late so his Son who himself was an accomplished scholar, went out and gave a very "thought provoking" and highly scholarly speech. However, the crowd kept getting restless, to the point that it became impossible to continue. Luckily for him his father entered at this time. He started his speech by just saying'that he was delayed at lunch and had lentils for lunch'. The crowd went in raptures.

People, cultures and individuals have preconceived notions of authority and leadership which goes hand in hand. When final authority is considered with God, than leadership is automatically associated with 'supposed men of God'. If one appears more in line with that, than he is considered more of a leadership material. Now the pashtoon are also a patriarchal cultures and authority is thus divided between God and the patriarch. The Darbar in afghanistan, the malik system in tribal areas and the khani system in pakhtunkhwa has its own influences.

Presently a pashtoon leader will have to be a muslim, man, a patriarch of his tribe, with the illusion to fulfill all these roles at the same time. Unfortunately due to the decay of all these institutions, leadership cannot form roots in the hearts and minds of the pashtoon people. Islam has been hijacked by outsiders and the patriarchs are uneducated primitives on stipends from here or there.

[Toramana]

Khidr, actually, Taleban are kind of forced leaders...The West's war against USSR has impacted no other nation so much as Pashtuns because they were at the frontline of soviet thrust ...Since 1979, a whole bunch of "Mujahideen" leaders were planted and nourished whereas the actual secular leaders were marginalized...Dr Najibullah, the chrismatic Abdul Haq (brother of Abdul Qadeer, Nangarhar)...

Secular/liberal Pashtun laedership simply didn't accommodate in the US-Paki plans ...If you read "The Epilogue on Russia" by Olaf Careo, Olaf Careo explicitly suggests the Khans (Wali Khan, Bacha Khan, etc.) should be closely watched.

Even now no liberal leader can campaign freely in Pashtun areas for fear of life.

Tajaks etc. were fortunate they were not in proximity to US's, Pakistan's zone of influence.

[Khidr]

im surprised the uzbeks support him since he displaced their dustom from mazar

i have heard he is responsible for many killings of pashtuns secretly and persecuting them

has he made separatist remarks?

The Young movement of Dostum's Junbish Party lead by Salimi and Mauwlavi Khabir actually endorsed Abdullah and many Uzbeks will be in Abdullah's coalition in the new parlaiment. Abdullah won 30-40% in the 2-3 90% Uzbek majority provinces. That's no easy task considering Dostum came out for Karzai. Atta has power, money and his federalism and greater automony message is something that Uzbeks and Hazaras have been calling for since 1990.

He's not a seperatist (not even Pedram is a seperatist) but he recently in an interview did say Federalism and provincial autonomy is the only way for Afghanistan. See he's killing of Pashtuns is a big lie. He's too smart for that. Pashtuns of Balkh were his allies against Uzbeks and Hazaras after Taliban's fall. Hence why he became governor.

There is division between Pashtuns in Balkh. One group of Hezb Islami one's lead by Juma Khan Hamdard, and the other is Atta's group who have positions like woleswal and in the provincial government. Also he's wife is a Pashtun.

[Khidr]

I remember a story narrated by someone of Abdul Khadir - Jilani.

It is said that when he spoke, the audience would be spellbound and enraptured by his words and personality. One afternoon a large crowd had gathered to listen to him. He was late so his Son who himself was an accomplished scholar, went out and gave a very "thought provoking" and highly scholarly speech. However, the crowd kept getting restless, to the point that it became impossible to continue. Luckily for him his father entered at this time. He started his speech by just saying'that he was delayed at lunch and had lentils for lunch'. The crowd went in raptures.

People, cultures and individuals have preconceived notions of authority and leadership which goes hand in hand. When final authority is considered with God, than leadership is automatically associated with 'supposed men of God'. If one appears more in line with that, than he is considered more of a leadership material. Now the pashtoon are also a patriarchal cultures and authority is thus divided between God and the patriarch. The Darbar in afghanistan, the malik system in tribal areas and the khani system in pakhtunkhwa has its own influences.

Presently a pashtoon leader will have to be a muslim, man, a patriarch of his tribe, with the illusion to fulfill all these roles at the same time. Unfortunately due to the decay of all these institutions, leadership cannot form roots in the hearts and minds of the pashtoon people. Islam has been hijacked by outsiders and the patriarchs are uneducated primitives on stipends from here or there.

A agree 100%.

I said to the Waziri guy MI6, that if you want to help your people, you can't attack their religion, you have to attack the twisted Salafi version which has been forced on them.

[Khidr]

Khidr, actually, Taleban are kind of forced leaders...The West's war against USSR has impacted no other nation so much as Pashtuns because they were at the frontline of soviet thrust ...Since 1979, a whole bunch of "Mujahideen" leaders were planted and nourished whereas the actual secular leaders were marginalized...Dr Najibullah, the chrismatic Abdul Haq (brother of Abdul Qadeer, Nangarhar)...

Secular/liberal Pashtun laedership simply didn't accommodate in the US-Paki plans ...If you read "The Epilogue on Russia" by Olaf Careo, Olaf Careo explicitly suggests the Khans (Wali Khan, Bacha Khan, etc.) should be closely watched.

Even now no liberal leader can campaign freely in Pashtun areas for fear of life.

Tajaks etc. were fortunate they were not in proximity to US's, Pakistan's zone of influence.

I feel ya brother. Your proximity to Pakistan was a curse and is still a curse for Pashtun nationalists. Taliban are forced, no doubting that but is it not fair to say that they were forced but they have now taken root within the Pashtun areas? Hence they are seen as leaders?

I know of Abdul Haq, he was very astute. If Najib were alive today, it's safe to say whether you like him or not (I was against him politically) he would have been the clearest thing to a leader for Pashtun Secular Nationalists.

We Tajiks were not immune to Pakistani Salafi infiltration (such as Rabbani, Ustad Farid, etc) but fortunately we had distance from them and we had a unbreakable vaccine for their virus, it was Ahmad Shah Massoud lol.

[khyaal]

By Leader I do not mean 'Politician'. Politicians out number the pakhtun population. So skip them. Do you know a Leader for Pakhtuns? Please let me know so I can add to my historical dictionary of the future.

If one is out there to ridicule and demoralize Pashtun/afghan nation he will always find fault even with the most sincere Pashtun/afghan leadership since no one is immaculate, but we have to be pragmatic and accept anyone as our leader having a clear and viable pro-afghan agenda for Pashtun/afghan nation. I believe that such a leadership does exist.

[Shehbaz Khan]

I am looking forward towards Mashar Mehmood Khan Achakzai, I have hopes from this man and I hope that he should not dis-appoint me like Asfandyar Wali Khan did.

[Khidr]

Khidr this is by far one of your best posts here.

If this was the best post of mine you have ever read...then clearly you haven't read my other posts. lol

[Khidr]

Only the Muslims Pashtuns can be called leaders, none of the secular slaves can be called leaders. They are not leaders.

Question brother.

Would you rather pray in a mosque consiting of you and one other devout and sincere muslim?

OR

Would you rather pray in a full mosque of 5000 people, but all of whom have been forced with a stick and are perhaps munafiqs?

If you define secularism as a muslim state encouraging and informing its citizens about Islam but NOT FORCING it then I and i'm sure many others are seclurists.