Islam and nationalism

[MazloomyarMaseed]

And ahadith were not written 200 yrs after Allahs Messenger [s]. Some of the sahabah [r] had their own ahadith collections.

But did the Prophet(pbuh) tell his sahaba to write about him? Also you say some, what about the others who later wrote about him but were not present with him.

[Laila]

Okay i am really tired of this 'pointing fingers at each other and calling names' we are not 6 years old now. In case if you havent noticed, forums are public. We should not make it seem as if we are doing childish acts by 'pointing fingers' and calling each other 'kaffir' its quite old now. The labeling needs to stop. Period.

Thank you.

[inqilab]

Well...Just because you find it difficult to debate with him, so cowardly you resort to the labelling of others as kaffirs.

Well...Atleast hes better than your salafist brother Omar Bakri

Salafism and Arab Nationalism is very similar as well.

Mocking islam and calling it an arab thing is kufr and makes a person a kafir. Islam did not come to spread arabism like both of you idiots think. This is not labeling, this is his attribute. Whether you like it or not makes no difference. Just like you being attractive to hijabis lol

Who is omar bakri? I never met him. And i already told you i do not like salafis. Both of you are boneheads.

Since we are told Arabic is the language of all Faiths and other languages are lower, also what language we will we the non arabs speak under your khalifate? If its arabic then iam afraid Clear Imperialism.

Whose we? I was never told that. Do you even know who wrote most of the early arabic dictionaries? It was muslim persians. They were not arabs. They learned arabic and perfected it. Even better then the arabs themselves.

Most of the compilers of ahadith were not arabs. Bukhari was not arab. Muslimw as not arab. Tirmizi was not arab. Abu dawud was not arab. Ibn maja was not. Who else is there? Ahmad was iraqi.

So all of this is just your own personal regurgitated crap. And the irony is that this person thinks he is educated lol

[inqilab]

But did the Prophet(pbuh) tell his sahaba to write about him? Also you say some, what about the others who later wrote about him but were not present with him.

At first he prohibited it. But then he permitted it. Both are documented authentically.

Well you have to learn how hadith science works to know how they collected the sayings. Many orientalists made the same claims. And this all has been refuted.

Since your in uk. You can easily find books by muhammad mustafa azami. He has a few books on hadith and refutes orientalists. Good books. Maybe they even have them in your local masjid.

If i find them online i will link them to you.

[inqilab]

Okay i am really tired of this 'pointing fingers at each other and calling names' we are not 6 years old now. In case if you havent noticed, forums are public. We should not make it seem as if we are doing childish acts by 'pointing fingers' and calling each other 'kaffir' its quite old now. The labeling needs to stop. Period.

Thank you.

When people insulted Allahs messenger [s] where was your advice?

Please keep it to yourself.

[Laila]

When people insulted Allahs messenger [s] where was your advice?

Please keep it to yourself.

I dont care what situation it was. Whether you said something to him or he said something to you. The point is to refrain from labeling and name calling. Simple as that.

[tor_khan]

Thank you MsFutureDoc. Very level headed.

Name calling doesn't help folks. Considering the many troubles in our home patch, and the NEED for Pashtoon unity, what does name calling or petty squabbles achieve?

In case anyone was mistaken, Pashtoons are a composite group. There are born Pashtoons, there are folk who become absorbed into the culture. There are pro-religous and pro-secular. If there is one thing we should have learned in our recent past, it's that there are many on the outside who benefit from the disunity within. Which one of you doesn't care about your brothers and sisters poor and displaced living in refugee camps or facing the onslaught of NATO shelling or army abuses? Which one of you is proud of the illiteracy and violence that blights us? Which one of you is proud of the corruption and the continous missed opportunities? We all want progress and betterment. If we carry on fighting over these issues, then damn, we're all finished.

From a humanist point of view, or a religious point of view, learn to love your brother* - your Pashtoon brother - first. Da Khudai au da Rasool da paara, wrorwali ukai.

*metaphorical - I mean of course, "brother and sister"

[Roshina]

*metaphorical - I mean of course, "brother and sister"

LOL! :D Lovely!

I can't believe how far this thread has gone!!!

[Roshina]

saying there is nothing in islam that forbids Nationalism, where there are clearly well documented ahadith to say exactly the opposit is nothing less then kufr

Why don't you share with us those "well-documented ahadith" that tell us that nationalism is absolutely HARAAM, my brother in faith and ethnicity?

Last I checked, Islam believed in supporting the oppressed and standing up for justice even if it meant standing up against your own family:

O you who believe, stand up for justice, witnesses to Allah, even if it is against your own souls or your parents and close family... (Quran, 4:136).

And ALL Pashtuns are asking for is justice on their own land. You need to help the people with whom you share blood, language, culture, and many physical features before you go to help others just because they have a religion in common with you. When more than one group of people are so oppressed (e.g., Pashtuns, Palestinians, and Sudanese), HOW do Muslims pick and choose whom to dedicate their entire time to? :S HOW many Muslims stood up for Pashtuns or are even aware of our recent plight?

So much for brother/sisterhood, I guess.

Charity begins at home.

And our demanding a nation for ourselves doesn't mean we'll turn our heads to the rest of the Muslim world :| What makes people think this? I don't understand.

[abubaker]

Read the ahadith me mulah posted.

[inqilab]

I dont care what situation it was. Whether you said something to him or he said something to you. The point is to refrain from labeling and name calling. Simple as that.

I refuse to take your advice. No hard feelings.

[pir_Rokhan]

saying there is nothing in islam that forbids Nationalism, where there are clearly well documented ahadith to say exactly the opposit is nothing less then kufr

Are you suffering from obssessive compulsive disorder ? I gave you the arguments in my earlier post if you kindly bother to read and then re read and then try to understand it.

Dont call yourself Abu Bakr or Omer or anyone else. Be yourself. Imitating will never evolve you psychologically.Liberate your mind from the fabricated stories of Arabs who concocted them to keep you their slave.

[pir_Rokhan]

I just saw what pir rokhan lol. So we can confirm that he is a kafir. People like him bring dishonor and shame to pashtuns. We should hide our faces from such people.

My dear "Militant Mullah" [I think just Mullah was enough ,we know the implications]

It is very easy to pass verdicts that is one of the symptoms of a complicated disease in abnormal psychology however I would appreciate argument if you deem it necessary,ofcourse.

Anyways I will give you a quick reply and then later on show you how big of a bonehead you really are. And not as intelligent as you pretend to be.
First. The quraishi condition is not mandatory. There is a major difference between saying imamah should be quraishi then imamah being only valid within quraish.


This is clear from other ahadith which i will show you later. As long as the person is implementing shariah (hadith narrated by muawiya [r] collected in sahih albukhari). The obligation of obedience remains. Even if the person is not quraishi. (Allahs Messengers [s] final sermon).This will be seen later.

Can you grip this basic difference pir saab?

I dont believe in the Ahadith which you revere so much as your source and you dont even quote a single reference from Quran which is considered the primary source.

In my opinion ,and this is same as Ubaidullah Sindhi's opinion, that the status of Hadith is same as "Israeliyat" or "bible" in authenticity,but my basic point is not the arabic grammatical compostion of the hadith [about which you dont seem to have any clue unfortunatley] ,my point is the limitedness of imamat, as bedoins call it, to Quraish. Abul ala Mawdudi has discussed it in detail in his compilations [Rasail wa Masail,sorry it is in Urdu].

Just think for a moment that your version of Islam claims to give a system to the world , to the humanity and then say that a certain tribe should rule (whether according to or against Sharia). Does it make sense to you ? That is why one would conclude that Islam was good for that time and for Arabs, now it is no more valid to solve the problems of the modern age.

Second. Even if it was mandatory. This does not promote any form of tribalism mr smartypants. Ruling by shariah is what makes the imamah valid. He is not ruling by his tribal laws nor promoting his clan like the jahil pashtunwali codes. His mission is only islamic.

This is all your lack of understanding .Quriash was a tribe it had no proprietary rights. Others had equal rights . Please read religeous literature on this instead of speculating using your limited IQ. However the other point you raised is also debatable.

Do you know what Shariah is? Your Shariah is just a set of interpretations of various jurists which you try to impose on a society which has progressed a thousand years ahead of your speculations.This is called "organised religion".The prophets who are normally natural leaders with higher level of self consciousness give some principles for the progress of a nation and generally for humanity for a certain period of time. What happens afterwards is that the clergy which uses religion as their source of income translates these broader principles according to their interest and consider anyone who refuses to accept their interpretatio as "Kafir" etc.This is exactly you are doing by advocating the organised religion translated into ideas which are of benefit to the exploiter class ,the clergy,the monarchy,the haves,the capitalists,the elite class etc.

And nationalism and tribalism are very similar. They share the same form of loyalty. Nationalism is a bond between people that is based upon family, clan or tribal ties. So please do not try to define it with your own crooked mind.

This is your interpretation about nationalism.You need to learn a lot. No further comments. Read history of nation state to know the basics.

Ibn khaldun used it in a lingustic term. Not in a islamic sense. General usage can be social solidarity. But islam has its own definition. And it is far better and superior. What it condemns is thinking superior of oneself from others due to to your family, tribe or country. This is sheer stupidity. As Allah created us to worship him. He created us in different nations, tribes, languages and colors. All so we can know one another. But the best of us is in piety and good conduct.

I never said Ibne Khaldun used it as a term of Quran or Sunnah.Your fallacious and poor comprehension powers compell you to conclude what is not even implied as a tertiary result.

What you call the defination of Islam is infact your own interpretation and you by your own authority got that discretion not only to define things on behalf of Islam but also the divine decree of labelling people who dare to refuse your misunderstandings as Kafir. I think this is not fair.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

You know what i find amazing and so obvious is that they (militant Mullah and Sangar the european Salafis) say the those who follow Pashtunwali are Jahil and unislamic, and he says those who follow non arab bedion laws are non Muslims and Jahil, and like he said on his previous comment, that those who follow Pashtunwali are jahils, but what if we follow a european system of law, will we still be called Jahil even those their back sides are enjoying it while their desert bedions cant even organise a village without publically whipping those with clean shave faces.

It goes beyond common sense.

Also he calls people as kaffirs and a shame to Pashtuns, but what is more shameful than betray your own Pashtunwali and adopt a System that is suited for backward Desert Arabs of Arabia.

Pashtunwali can be reformed but sadly Salafism and Wahabism can not be reformed as those who spread it are themselves extremely arrogant and only good at labelling others as kaffirs and non relgionous etc etc etc but they themselves feel at peace within a european society and i know for a fact they wouldnt want to leave such as country.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Pir Rokhan thinks everyone is either stupid or crazy.

Schizophrenia Noun S: (n) schizophrenia, schizophrenic disorder, schizophrenic psychosis, dementia praecox (any of several psychotic disorders characterized by distortions of reality and disturbances of thought and language and withdrawal from social contact)