Islam and nationalism

[tor_khan]

Baacha Khan is the exemplar here ... a pious Muslim (Hajj several times) and deeply committed to unity and the Nationalist cause through peace and social improvement.

[pir_Rokhan]

Nationalism is insane though. Who'd embrace it?

And would you care to elaborate your verdict?

[pir_Rokhan]

Sahih almuslim - Allahs Messenger [s] said:
"And whosoever fights under a blind banner, gets angry along with his group of people, or calls to a group of people, or supports a group of people, and is subsequently killed because of that, then this killing is a sinful killing."

This is proving something from your own resources. Do you have any rational argument?

Do you want me to hurt your weak faith by something which is in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim [considered more important for the Salafis than Quran in most cases if not all] ? Do not get pissed off then.

The prophet when he realised that it is difficult to run a city state based on the principles of equality and other altrusitic ideals [which he was preaching all his life] said in his last days:

"AL AIMATUL MINAL QURAISH".
[Translation: The leadership will remain with Quraish [which was his tribe].

The first political struggle after Muhammad was on this basis.The medinites were also claiming leadership role based on merit [their services ] when Abu baker narrated the above cited saying of the prophet of Muslims.

This was a major issue after the death of Muhammad in all subsequent govts, not only in the later Muslims but the closest companions of Muhammad like Abu Baker and Ali. Then in Ali's time even the wife of Muhammad had to rise against Ali in the battle of Camel.

The whole Arab history which is also termed as Islamic history to rationalise the supremacy of Arabs over the rest of the world,is full of such fights and fueds. Any imapartial book on so called Islamic history will tell you the stories of Arab imperialism in the name of Islam.

This Hadith along with a couple of others are the basis of Cultist version as well as institutionalised Brahmanism in Islam which infact was used for Arab imperialism but claimed to be for the whole humanity despite having failed even for the peninsula within first 50 years.

Pakhtuns have suffered a lot due to these fanatics.Give us a break please.This is the age of science and technology.With the very first law of law of conservation of of mass /energy,the very basis of the notions of "Ahlul Sunnah wal Jumaaaaa" is gone with the wind.If anyone is skeptic , I will make an endevour to give a small blow to the edifice of misconceptions traditionally called "Aqaaaaaiid".

[pir_Rokhan]

Asabiyyah literally means tribalism. This can be used for any form of loyalty to a specific group or country. And fighting in its name.

We are talking about the modern concept of Nationalism.Tribalism is not Nationalism.If you dont know what you are talking about then first try to understand what is being argued.

Asabiyah is standing with your kith and kin even if they are wrong [by you which you can prove and they cant refute it]. Nationalism is just a struggle for the socio-political rights in a certain territory [all modern nation states] or for a certain linguistic group [like MQM for Urdu speaking people or Jai Sindh for Sindhis] or for a race like Musa fought for Bani Israil only.

You have a certain conception [or misconception] and assume that it is equivalent to the concept being debated.

For reference read, Almawardi's "Al Ahkamul Sultaniaya" in which he has xplained the "Islamic" theory of Imamate/Caliphate/and Ibne Khaldoon's Prolegomena to the history of Barbars in which he has explained the theory to Asabiya.

[pir_Rokhan]

its amazing how people make up bull**** about our great relegion with thout having a clue as to what islam actually has to say about that perticular issue

So if you quote the secondary sources from your religion and explain them with your limited understanding and fallacious comprehension it is ISLAM and if someone else tries to liberate your mind from the clutches of Arab imperialism then you call it BS.

"Ma lakum kaifa tahkumoon"

[MazloomyarMaseed]

So if you quote the secondary sources from your religion and explain them with your limited understanding and fallacious comprehension it is ISLAM and if someone else tries to liberate your mind from the clutches of Arab imperialism then you call it BS.

"Ma lakum kaifa tahkumoon"

Can i be your student Pir rokhan Saab?

I wish i was as bright and intelligent as you

[pir_Rokhan]

Yes, dividing the Ummah is forbidden in the Qur'an, if you ever read it you should know that already. But you too busy running your filthy mouth all the time, so i can see why you would be pre-occupied.

http://www.islamic-world.net/islamic-state/evidence.htm

Pashtoons are not united, and why do you think? You reject Islam and mock the words of Allah (swt) and prefer to follow the likes of Charles Darwin... then you wonder why Pashtoons are not united. Can you get anymore pathetic?

Anyways, just wanted to say that, i usually ignore imbeciles. You're free to continue your yapping now.

Azmatullah mian sb

There is and there was no such thing as Ummah.These are all fantasies.Get out of books written by Arabs or their intellectual slaves. Get into the real world.This was a concept to intellectulise the Arab supremacy and it is no more there.Go to your sacred land and see it and feel it for yourself.

The nations who were conquered by Arabs were never united. Leave alone different nations even various tribes within the same nation [Arabs] there was no unity. Read the antagonism between the Ummayads and Abassids in history.

Neither Pashtuns nor any other nation can ever unite with the help of Islam.Only concrete and empirical facts which can be proved can unite the whole humanity.If you think abstract and metaphysical concepts like ontology,existence,Extra sensory perceptions ,Transcendentalsim etc [which are the philosophic interpretations of your "imaniyat-e- talatha"] can unite Pashtuns ,it is day dreaming.

We [Pashtuns] just need to get united for our political rights and freedom. The rest is everybody's personal choice.The only thing needed is a secular appraoch in which every one should have the right to believe in whatever one wills without imposing one's concepts on others and respect other's points of views.

[imb706]

jew married to a japanese, thats not gona happen

You've certainly never heard of Japanese Jews XD... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Jews

mustard gas

I have no idea what a poisonous gas has to do with two ethnicities mixing.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

You've certainly never heard of Japanese Jews XD... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Jews I have no idea what a poisonous gas has to do with two ethnicities mixing.

This is what i mean...How can there be a Japanese Jew, the lost tribes didnt migrate there, this is usual American and Khazar Gentiles, insult the name of real jews. they will allow anybody to be jewish when their blood is truely of a gentile

[imb706]

This is what i mean...How can there be a Japanese Jew, the lost tribes didnt migrate there the lost tribes didnt migrate there, this is usual American and Khazar Gentiles, insult the name of real jews. they will allow anybody to be jewish when their blood is truely of a gentile

See? It just can't register in your bigoted mind. You seem like some Klan member. You probably didn't even read the article, because in your mind, jew only registers as some weird mix between Satan, Captain Hook and Scrooge McDuck.gl

[abubaker]

So if you quote the secondary sources from your religion and explain them with your limited understanding and fallacious comprehension it is ISLAM and if someone else tries to liberate your mind from the clutches of Arab imperialism then you call it BS.

"Ma lakum kaifa tahkumoon"

saying there is nothing in islam that forbids Nationalism, where there are clearly well documented ahadith to say exactly the opposit is nothing less then kufr

[MazloomyarMaseed]

saying there is nothing in islam that forbids Nationalism, where there are clearly well documented ahadith to say exactly the opposit is nothing less then kufr

Yes but you are not reading fully,there are different forms of Nationalism, but we have witnesssed Arab Nationalism in the form of Salafism.Wahabism, whereby your own culture is rejected and replaced with desert bedion Arab cultures.

There are many hadiths, and Hadiths were written 200 years after the death of the Prophet,i find it extremely arrogant and typicla of most muslims who refuse to debate hadiths.

Nationalism is what Pashtuns need not some Arab desert camel jockey to tell him/her how they shud live their lives.

Palestinians also follow Nationalism, and i bet you support their cause.

Hipocrites

[inqilab]

I just saw what pir rokhan lol So we can confirm that he is a kafir. People like him bring dishonor and shame to pashtuns. We should hide our faces from such people.

Anyways i will give you a quick reply and then later on show you how big of a bonehead you really are. And not as intelligent as you pretend to be.

First. The quraishi condition is not mandatory. There is a major difference between saying imamah should be quraishi then imamah being only valid within quraish.

This is clear from other ahadith which i will show you later. As long as the person is implementing shariah (hadith narrated by muawiya [r] collected in sahih albukhari). The obligation of obedience remains. Even if the person is not quraishi. (Allahs Messengers [s] final sermon).This will be seen later.

Can you grip this basic difference pir saab?


Second. Even if it was mandatory. This does not promote any form of tribalism mr smartypants. Ruling by shariah is what makes the imamah valid. He is not ruling by his tribal laws nor promoting his clan like the jahil pashtunwali codes. His mission is only islamic.

And nationalism and tribalism are very similar. They share the same form of loyalty. Nationalism is a bond between people that is based upon family, clan or tribal ties. So please do not try to define it with your own crooked mind.

Ibn khaldun used it in a lingustic term. Not in a islamic sense. General usage can be social solidarity. But islam has its own definition. And it is far better and superior. What it condemns is thinking superior of oneself from others due to to your family, tribe or country. This is sheer stupidity. As Allah created us to worship him. He created us in different nations, tribes, languages and colors. All so we can know one another. But the best of us is in piety and good conduct.

[inqilab]

And ahadith were not written 200 yrs after Allahs Messenger [s]. Some of the sahabah [r] had their own ahadith collections.

[MazloomyarMaseed]

I just saw what pir rokhan lol So we can confirm that he is a kafir. People like him bring dishonor and shame to us. We should hide our faces from such people. Anyways i will give you a quick reply and then later on show you how big of a bonehead you really are.

First. The quraishi condition is not mandatory. There is a major difference between saying imamah should be quraishi then imamah being only valid within quraish.

This is clear from other ahadith which i will show you later. As long as the person is implementing shariah (hadith narrated by muawiya [r] collected in sahih albukhari). The obligation of obedience remains. Even if the person is not quraishi. (Allahs Messengers [s] final sermon).This will be seen later.

Can you grip this basic difference pir saab?


Second. Even if it was mandatory. This does not promote any form of tribalism mr smartypants. Ruling by shariah is what makes the imamah valid. He is not ruling by his tribal laws nor promoting his clan. His mission is only islamic.

And nationalism and tribalism are very similar. They share the same form of loyalty. Nationalism is a bond between people that is based upon family, clan or tribal ties. So please do not try to define it with your own jahil terms.

Ibn khaldun used it in a lingustic term. Not in a islamic sense. General usage can be social solidarity. But islam has its own definition. And it is far better and superior. What it condemns is thinking superior of oneself from others due to to your family, tribe or country. This is sheer stupidity. As Allah created us to worship him. He created us in different nations, tribes, languages and colors. All so we can know one another. But the best of us is in piety and good conduct.

Well...Just because you find it difficult to debate with him, so cowardly you resort to the labelling of others as kaffirs.

Well...Atleast hes better than your salafist brother Omar Bakri

Salafism and Arab Nationalism is very similar as well.

Since we are told Arabic is the language of all Faiths and other languages are lower, also what language we will we the non arabs speak under your khalifate? If its arabic then iam afraid Clear Imperialism.