The myth that Pashtuns dominate the ISI

[Toramana]

Let us discuss it.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

It goes hand in hand with the myth that Pashtuns make 30, 40 or 50 % of the army. People through out the years have used it as justification for the state of Pakistan. I.e Pashtuns are well represented in the biggest apparatus of Pakistan and that we in Pashtunkhwa saw it in ourselves to help actively destroy Pakistan. It is basically used to rupture ties between the Pashtuns and in doing so negate any future unity of theirs. It is also highly unsubstantiated and is based on myth at worst and anecdotal information at best.

[Toramana]

One common myth is that General Akhtar Abdur Rahman was a Pashtun. This is a lie that has either been propagated out of ignorance or plain dishonesty. The fact is, he was born to Punjabi parents in East Punjab and migrated to Pakistan at the time of partition.

The other General that is qutoed, usually, to be Pashtun is General Hamid Gul. Hamid Gul is kattas(die-hard) Punjabi born in the Sargodha town of the Punjab province.

So far, ISI has not had any Pashtun chief. There was General Ihsanullah Khan (also miquoted as a Pashtun) who headed ISI during the rule of Musharaf (probab 2002 to 2007 am not sure) but his background too was Mahajar i.e., Urdu speaker, whose parents had migrated from UP and settled at Mardan(KP). This is not to say, there are no Pashtuns in the ISI but they are mostly in lower cadres and not at policy-making levels.

[Talal]

BLS do you honestly believe an intelligence agency to publish its ethnic makeup ?

ISI does its job nothing more nothing less

[Michin Khel]

A sensitive department like ISI cant be dominated by pashtuns. Though there are pashtuns in ISI.

May be like islamists, there are some pashtunists in ISI and Army who are against all these military operations in KP and interference in afghanistan.

[Talal]

Talal, what is your opinion?

ISI is an intelligence agency, whatever i say or anyone else says about them is pure absolute speculation since none of us has any way of knowing anything..that much is a fact. Based on there involvement in Afghanistan one can assume based on logic that they must have a sizable number of pashtuns in ISI since thats essential to there programs in these areas

I dont really take part in these kind of speculative threads cuz its a waste of time..They do get a really bad rep from the media and thats it, this is an article on ISI from reuters that i was reading today..it gives the basic idea of what ISI is

Pakistan's ISI, a hidden, frustrating power for U.S.

8:44am EDT
By Michael Georgy




ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Top U.S. defense officials are concerned some elements of Pakistan's main spy agency may be interacting improperly with the Taliban and other insurgent groups, a Pentagon spokesman said on Thursday.


Colonel David Lapan said Pakistani army chief, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, himself a former spy chief, was aware of U.S. concerns about the military's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency and shared some of them.
Here are some questions and answers about the ISI, the most powerful intelligence agency in Pakistan, a country the United States sees as indispensable to its efforts to tame a raging Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan.


HOW POWERFUL IS THE ISI?


The shadowy military intelligence agency has evolved into what some describe as a state within a state.


Widely feared by Pakistanis, it is believed to have a hidden role in many of the nuclear-armed nation's policies, including in Afghanistan, one of U.S. President Barack Obama's top foreign policy priorities.


The ISI is seen as the Pakistani equivalent of the U.S. Central Agency (CIA) -- with which it has had a symbiotic but sometimes strained relationship -- and Israel's Mossad.


Its size is not publicly known but the ISI is widely believed to employ tens of thousands of agents, with informers in many spheres of public life.
Hardline elements within the ISI are capable of being spoilers, no matter what position a Pakistani government might take, a reality the U.S. and Afghan governments should take into account if they attempt to exclude Pakistan from negotiations with the Afghan Taliban.


WHAT ABOUT THE ISI'S PAST?


Created in 1948, the ISI gained importance and power during the 1979-1989 Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, and is now rated one of best-organized intelligence agencies in the developing world.


The ISI along with the United States and Saudi Arabia, nurtured the Afghan mujahideen, or Muslim holy warrior guerrillas, and helped them win the war. It helped to plan many of their operations and was the main conduit for Western and Arab arms. It later helped create the Taliban.


Although Pakistan officially abandoned support for the Taliban after joining the U.S.-led war against al Qaeda and Taliban, critics, including Western military commanders in Afghanistan, say it has maintained its ties with, and support for, the Afghan Taliban. The military denies supporting the Taliban but says agents maintain links with militants, as any security agency would do, in the interests of intelligence.


Analysts say the main preoccupation of the ISI, and the Pakistani military, is the threat from nuclear-armed rival India and it sees the Afghan Taliban as tools to influence events, and limit India's role, in Afghanistan.
The ISI was heavily involved in the 1990s in creating and supporting Islamist factions that battled Indian forces in the disputed Kashmir region. Some of those groups have since joined forces with the Pakistani Taliban to attack the state, including the ISI. That militants alliance may be the biggest threat to Pakistan's long-term security, analysts say.


WHAT ABOUT THE ISI'S CURRENT LEADERSHIP?


Lieutenant General Ahmad Shuja Pasha is the director general of the ISI and a close ally of Kayani. Pasha is seen as anti-Taliban, unlike some of his predecessors, and analysts suggest he is using the ISI to broker some sort of deal between factions of the Afghan Taliban and the Afghan government. Although he is seen as relatively moderate, the ISI is almost certain to come under a new wave of pressure as the United States gets increasingly frustrated with the army's perceived reluctance to go after Afghan Taliban fighters who cross the border to attack Western forces in Afghanistan. But the strategic interests of the ISI, headquartered in a sprawling, well-guarded complex in Islamabad, will invariably come first, analysts say.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Pakistani Yahya khan was not a Pashtun.

Talal I never said they ever did...but your supporters of Pakistan always come up with this myth that Pashtuns make x or y percent of the organization. I tell them it is not demographically possible and it cant be proven.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Nazia if ISI hypothetically was dominated by Pashtuns why did they ruin Pashtun areas almost in entirety? Is it rational for that many people of the same origin in the same organization to go about and do this? BTW ISI is the most powerful institution in Pakistan and although some are in it, I don't think it is logical to assume they are in the majority. Even the nuclear arsenal's protection is not in the hands of any other soldier/intel officer except for those of panjabi decent (Seymour hersch talked about it).

[Talal]

Pakistani Yahya khan was not a Pashtun.

Talal I never said they ever did...but your supporters of Pakistan always come up with this myth that Pashtuns make x or y percent of the organization. I tell them it is not demographically possible and it cant be proven.

yeah but neither can you prove the opposite, meaning there is really no factual basis for "pashtuns in ISI" or "no pashtuns in ISI" arguments..There are pashtuns in there just like there are people from other ethnicities..how many ? I dont think its a matter of significance for this organization.

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Talal I don't deny it...I know there are some Pashtuns in the organization. I never said otherwise. However every second third defender of the state (probably not you) uses it as a some means to prove themselves. That is what bothers me.

[Talal]

Nazia if ISI hypothetically was dominated by Pashtuns why did they ruin Pashtun areas almost in entirety? Is it rational for that many people of the same origin in the same organization to go about and do this? BTW ISI is the most powerful institution in Pakistan and although some are in it, I don't think it is logical to assume they are in the majority. Even the nuclear arsenal's protection is not in the hands of any other soldier/intel officer except for those of panjabi decent (Seymour hersch talked about it).

Seymour Hersh the same dude who was yakin out about our nukes ?.. man im not gonna tell you not to listen to him since thats a personal choice but his credibility and the authenticity of his reports is really questionable

Pakistani nukes and their saftey is a different story..if you want i can paste some reading here for you detailing the security procedures and what not

And again considering ISI's involvement in Afghanistan, ISI would have to have a sizable enough pashtun agent base to pull the cold war off..or does that seem illogical ?

[Talal]

Talal I don't deny it...I know there are some Pashtuns in the organization. I never said otherwise. However every second third defender of the state (probably not you) uses it as a some means to prove themselves. That is what bothers me.

this is internet mayn, you and me we only spar with our laptops on forums like this one ... real battles and what really goes down out there only Allahu Alaam

[BLS_1919v2.0]

Sizeable doesn't mean majority..in converse we could say they probably have just as many balochis, or more panjabis and sindhis considering their enemy for 60+ years has been India.

Seymour Hersch is a very credible source. The guy breaks stories way in advance of the mainstream media.

[Toramana]

Mr. Paki, the Huffingtonpost is not an authentic source. These Western journalists, etc. mostly are google scholars or take their information from sources in Islamabad or GHQ, Rawalpindi ( where the Punjo disinformation cells are busy spreading lies). Lately, Americans have discovered how untrustworthy and dishonest the Punjabi clique is in the provision of information.

The only two generals that headed Punjo Army and that can be genuinely called Pashtuns are General Gul Hassan (born Pabbi) and General Waheed Kakar. Even Waheed Kakar(who was a Hindku speaker belonging to Noshtar family) is not considered Pashtun by many who employ the strict definition of as who is a Pashtun.

General Ayub Khan claimed Pashtun descent but spoke the Potohari Punjabi and is considered Punjabi by more academic-type and anthropology-based works. As for Yahya Khan, he was a Qazalbash whose first language was Persian and second Hindko.

The only two Pashtun airchiefs of Pakistan Air force so far are Air Chief Marshal Abbas khattak and air chief marshal Hakimullah Khan.

[Talal]

Sizeable doesn't mean majority..in converse we could say they probably have just as many balochis, or more panjabis and sindhis considering their enemy for 60+ years has been India.

Seymour Hersch is a very credible source. The guy breaks stories way in advance of the mainstream media.

it means large enough and thats a logical conclusion

as far as Seymour Hersh is concerned (it really is spelled Hersh unless your talking about a different dude) not a favorite nor a credible reporter in my opinion..but to each his own