Questions and challenges to the statements of OSHO

[imb706]

Secularism and belief in democracy as majority rule is a dogma.

How? What does dogma mean, do you even know? Islam is dogmatic, not some basic policies and ideas on politics.

It is based on beliefs.

All views are based on people´s beliefs and ideas though, so? Even rational viewpoints are based somewhat on your beliefs.

Alexis de Tocqueville

I´m pretty sure you never read his book, or any of the links I gave for that matter, since you wouldn´t have cited him as an example if you even had read what he wrote. He saw US democracy as an expression of what he thought was Christian values (note that he was what most would call left wing nowadays in views on the economy and inequality)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville#Democracy_in_America

He never made views on dogma in regards to what you´re talking about. I´m pretty sure you just pulled that name out of thin air.

And many scholars of political science, sociology and philosophy

I´m sure these scholars are islamic scholars pulling things out of thin air to justify mobbish theocracies that are anti-democratic. Real objective source, you fail history and political science forever...

[شمله ور خراساني]

How? What does dogma mean, do you even know? Islam is dogmatic, not some basic policies and ideas on politics.

All views are based on people´s beliefs and ideas though, so? Even rational viewpoints are based somewhat on your beliefs.

I´m pretty sure you never read his book, or any of the links I gave for that matter, since you wouldn´t have cited him as an example if you even had read what he wrote. He saw US democracy as an expression of what he thought was Christian values (note that he was what most would call left wing nowadays in views on the economy and inequality)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville#Democracy_in_America

He never made views on dogma in regards to what you´re talking about. I´m pretty sure you just pulled that name out of thin air.

I´m sure these scholars are islamic scholars pulling things out of thin air to justify mobbish theocracies that are anti-democratic. Real objective source, you fail history and political science forever...

Very funny. Those scholars are actually mostly Americans. And none of them is actually Muslim. WHen I have more time, I will give you a few examples.

Its quite amusing to see you telling me I never read de Tocqueville haha

[imb706]

Very funny. Those scholars are actually mostly Americans. And none of them is actually Muslim. WHen I have more time, I will give you a few examples.

Ok, how about you give some sources, some text, some writings, what you think they mean and how they relate to the subject and such. Please, enlighten us.

I tend to think that last statement means you´re going to search high and low on the internet for some example. You shouldn´t make statements before you have the evidence to back them up. I know way too many people who do that.

Its quite amusing to see you telling me I never read de Tocqueville haha

Well, it´s a logical conclusion given you probably didn´t even know his views on Christianity...

By the way, talk of ¨dogma¨ and ¨beliefs¨ in some proto-deogratory manner is ridiculous when coming from a Muslim. Seriously, find a new cause.

[imb706]

What new religion are you talking about exactly? I assume new religions pop up all the time.

[Nadir Shah]

Sangar wrora, would you be kind enough so as to tell us what 'System of Governance' Islam advocates? How is the 'State' defined in Islamic parlance? How shall the relationship of the individual with the state be defined?

Manana.

[Nadir Shah]

Islam imb. The best religion in the world.

What benchmark are we using here? What quality of Islam makes it better than others? All religions have the following in common:

1 Origin in mythological concepts and tales.
2 Plagiarism and pervertion of certain philosophical concepts.
3 A system of morality that accuses the human of everything he hasn't done.
4 A sort of escape for those who have faced nothing but rejection.
5 A tool for the rulers to keep the masses in servitude.
6 Bloody histories.
7 Intolerance.

[imb706]

Islam isn´t a new religion though, it´s very old.

If I were to seriously join a religion, I´d go with the Quakers (society of friends), Episcopalians, or the Unitarians. Maybe Dutch Reformed church as well.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Ok, how about you give some sources, some text, some writings, what you think they mean and how they relate to the subject and such. Please, enlighten us.

I tend to think that last statement means you´re going to search high and low on the internet for some example. You shouldn´t make statements before you have the evidence to back them up. I know way too many people who do that.

Well, it´s a logical conclusion given you probably didn´t even know his views on Christianity...

By the way, talk of ¨dogma¨ and ¨beliefs¨ in some proto-deogratory manner is ridiculous when coming from a Muslim. Seriously, find a new cause.

Don't get too excited. I have some academic literature in PDF already. I might post them here soon.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sangar wrora, would you be kind enough so as to tell us what 'System of Governance' Islam advocates? How is the 'State' defined in Islamic parlance? How shall the relationship of the individual with the state be defined?

Manana.

You are asking the wrong question.

And if you would have carefully read my long reply to Osho earlier in this thread you would have known the answer to the question that I think you wanted to pose.

However, I can clearify something to help you out.

Neither Qur'an nor Hadith does prescribe a specific form of government and bureaucracy.

Few things that Islam does advocate are certain rules and morals. Like prohibition of making the haram halal by majority vote. And based on the hadith we can derive the ethics of leadership, councils etc which are in some aspects similar to what they have in democratic regimes. But with some difference in regards to rules and laws that can be adopted.

And promoting yourself and making false promises like politicians do in democracy to gain public support and get elected is highly immoral and clearly against Islam.

[Nadir Shah]

You are asking the wrong question.

And if you would have carefully read my long reply to Osho earlier in this thread you would have known the answer to the question that I think you wanted to pose.

However, I can clearify something to help you out.

Neither Qur'an nor Hadith does prescribe a specific form of government and bureaucracy.

Few things that Islam does advocate are certain rules and morals. Like prohibition of making the haram halal by majority vote. And based on the hadith we can derive the ethics of leadership, councils etc which are in some aspects similar to what they have in democratic regimes. But with some difference in regards to rules and laws that can be adopted.

And promoting yourself and making false promises like politicians do in democracy to gain public support and get elected is highly immoral and clearly against Islam.

How about we adopt a more systematic and scientific approach to the issues of state and economy rather than some vague theological concepts that are out-dated and never practical in the first place?

I think the issue of statecraft and economy have become immensly complex since the days of Ancient Arabia. For example, the relationship between the state and class antagonisms has never been analysed or answered by Islam.

[شمله ور خراساني]

How about we adopt a more systematic and scientific approach to the issues of state and economy rather than some vague theological concepts that are out-dated and never practical in the first place?

I think the issue of statecraft and economy have become immensly complex since the days of Ancient Arabia. For example, the relationship between the state and class antagonisms has never been analysed or answered by Islam.

Claiming that Islam is out-dated is KUFR! Refrain from such statements if you are a Muslim.

If you think relationship between states and class antagonism have never been analysed or answered by Islam, then it is because of your ignorance.

I suggest you study these matters by studying the biography of prophet Muhammad saw and his followers.

[Nadir Shah]

Claiming that Islam is out-dated is KUFR! Refrain from such statements if you are a Muslim.

If you think relationship between states and class antagonism have never been analysed or answered by Islam, then it is because of your ignorance.

I suggest you study these matters by studying the biography of prophet Muhammad saw and his followers.

I have studied Islam enough. What part of the life of Muhammad SAW and his followers or which chapter of the Koran deals with the issues of the class antagonism of that era?

Religion must evolve if it is to remain relevant. The state of the society at the times of Roman Judae or Pagan Arabia and that of the world we live in today are world's apart.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I have studied Islam enough. What part of the life of Muhammad SAW and his followers or which chapter of the Koran deals with the issues of the class antagonism of that era?

Religion must evolve if it is to remain relevant. The state of the society at the times of Roman Judae or Pagan Arabia and that of the world we live in today are world's apart.

If you have studied Islam, you should have known that there is no place for class and casts or different races in Islam.

سُوۡرَةُ الحُجرَات

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقۡنَـٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ۬ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلۡنَـٰكُمۡ شُعُوبً۬ا وَقَبَآٮِٕلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓاْ*ۚ إِنَّ أَڪۡرَمَكُمۡ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتۡقَٮٰكُمۡ*ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ۬
١٣

Al-Hujraat
[SIZE=2.2]O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allâh is that (believer) who has At-Taqwa [i.e. he is one of the Muttaqûn (pious - see V.2:2). Verily, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Aware. (13)

Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah "Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those of you who are in authority" was revealed about `Abdullah bin Hudhafah bin Qays bin `Adi, who the Messenger of Allah sent on a military expedition.

This statement was collected by the Group, with the exception of Ibn Majah At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan, Gharib''.

Imam Ahmad recorded that `Ali said, "The Messenger of Allah sent a troop under the command of a man from Al-Ansar. When they left, he became angry with them for some reason and said to them, `Has not the Messenger of Allah commanded you to obey me?' They said, `Yes.' He said, `Collect some wood,' and then he started a fire with the wood, saying, `I command you to enter the fire.' The people almost entered the fire, but a young man among them said, `You only ran away from the Fire to Allah's Messenger. Therefore, do not rush until you go back to Allah's Messenger, and if he commands you to enter it, then enter it.' When they went back to Allah's Messenger, they told him what had happened, and the Messenger said,

"Had you entered it, you would never have departed from it. Obedience is only in righteousness.'' This Hadith is recorded in the Two Sahihs. Abu Dawud recorded that `Abdullah bin `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

"The Muslim is required to hear and obey in that which he likes and dislikes, unless he was commanded to sin. When he is commanded with sin, then there is no hearing or obeying." This Hadith is recorded in the Two Sahihs.

`Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "We gave our pledge to Allah's Messenger to hear and obey (our leaders), while active and otherwise, in times of ease and times of difficulty, even if we were deprived of our due shares, and to not dispute this matter (leadership) with its rightful people. The Prophet said,
"Except when you witness clear Kufr about which you have clear proof from Allah.'' This Hadith is recorded in the Two Sahihs. Another Hadith narrated by Anas states that the Messenger of Allah said,

"Hear and obey your leaders, even if an Ethiopian slave whose head is like a raisin, is made your chief." Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith. Umm Al-Husayn said that she heard the Messenger of Allah giving a speech during the Farewell Hajj, in which he said;

"Even if a slave was appointed over you, and he rules you with Allah's Book, then listen to him and obey him." Muslim recorded this Hadith. In another narration with Muslim, the Prophet said,

"Even if an Ethiopian slave, whose nose was mutilated..." In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,

"Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah, and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. Whoever obeys my commander, obeys me, and whoever disobeys my commander, disobeys me." This is why Allah said,

(Obey Allah), adhere to His Book,
(and obey the Messenger), adhere to his Sunnah,
(And those of you who are in authority) in the obedience to Allah which they command you, not what constitutes disobedience of Allah, for there is no obedience to anyone in disobedience to Allah, as we mentioned in the authentic Hadith.
(Obedience is only in righteousness.)

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...=645&Itemid=59

[Nadir Shah]

Pure rhetoric and generalization.

When the house needs to be cleaned call 'Bilal', when the mosque needs to be cleaned call 'Bilal'. But when it is the time to decide the kingship one of the claimants is the father-in-law, the other is his son-in-law. Where is 'Bilal' now? Bilal, was and remained, a slave.

What equality.

Sangar brother are you aware of how the Caliphate was won by the alliance between the traders (Ummayahs) and the political front of Umar and AbuBakr RA? How the Caliphate passed to the Ummayads at the third time of asking? How the Caliphate was nothing nut theological aristocracy?

Even before that the major decisions were always decided by the infuential people of the tribal confederations and those with connections and resources.

[imb706]

Excited? Um, no, I´m rather disappointed because even with such a silly and somewhat bizarre stance, you can´t just come out and say ¨Yeah, it´s because of my bias induced by my religion and how do you like that?¨