Future Secular Pukhtoon State and Pornography Laws

[Baygham]

Baygham,

You need to go first answer me like the big secular atheist man you should be instead of saying I'm not going to fall for that one.... I am not a quranist or pavaizi or any other category you can place me. If you want an answer to this (which I can happily provide), go answer me first.

Don't be shy.

Here is a secular answer. Collect your populace, ask them to vote on pornography and if 67% or what ever you have determined beforehand (say 90% or 51%) agree than it becomes a temporary law of the land. We will let those who wish with some restrictions do what they may please under the law. In 2099 another group decides that the law is not serving the pashtoons than a certian majority will take that away.

In my village in pakhtunkhwa, the majority were not in favor. so My answer is no, we cannot allow it.

Now it is your turn.

BTW even if you prove that pornography is not disallowed in Quran and as the shia interpretation suggest may even be allowed, even then our pashtoon approach will be the same. A village body will say, 'very good dhaleel mulla saab, but not in my house'.
How do you know that the Quranic verse 4:24. "Then give those of these women you have enjoyed, the agreed dower" is not revealed on the subject of video taping. In tafseer-i-baygham it means: "Those of these women that men have enjoyed being video taped, you have to give them the agreed dower". If tomorrow mullah umar decides that is what it means, what am I to do. He can already line up my 9 year old sister and now this as well.

[Wrayun]

Baygham,

Here is a secular answer. Collect your populace, ask them to vote on pornography and if 67% or what ever you have determined beforehand (say 90% or 51%) agree than it becomes a temporary law of the land. We will let those who wish with some restrictions do what they may please under the law. In 2099 another group decides that the law is not serving the pashtoons than a certian majority will take that away.

You do realize that a true secular state must protect the rights of its minorities even at the objection of the majority right? In this case it doesn't matter if I have 1 or 10 votes, my individual rights should be protected to make, produce and publish porn. I shouldn't be subjected to anyones morals in a secular state. Otherwise the majority might as well ban apostates, non-Muslims or non-Pukhtoons. The recent ban on pornography in Turkey and Indonsia caused an uproar from the secularists, they called it the "radicaliztion" of their states. Which if you think about it, both countries are headed towards, if it continues. In other words using democratic means to do away with democratic governanace.

Here: Pornography by region - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Almost all the nations that has legalized pornography in one form or another is secular, regardless of what the majority holds morally good, or wrong.

In my village in pakhtunkhwa, the majority were not in favor. so My answer is no, we cannot allow it.

What does your village say about atheists? Probabaly the same.

BTW even if you prove that pornography is not disallowed in Quran and as the shia interpretation suggest may even be allowed, even then our pashtoon approach will be the same. A village body will say, 'very good dhaleel mulla saab, but not in my house'.
How do you know that the Quranic verse 4:24. "Then give those of these women you have enjoyed, the agreed dower" is not revealed on the subject of video taping. In tafseer-i-baygham it means: "Those of these women that men have enjoyed being video taped, you have to give them the agreed dower". If tomorrow mullah umar decides that is what it means, what am I to do. He can already line up my 9 year old sister and now this as well.

The Quran is full of versus telling both man and woman to cover their privates and not to put them on display. The importance of modesty and chastity are stressed in many versus. Here, these should be enough to prevent anyone from wishing to produce porn of any sort:

(Qur'an 24:31) (Qur'an 33:58–59)

Now, what anyone does in their private is their own business. Whether they have sex with lights on, or secretly broadcast it over the web. According to these versus alone legalizing of such vices is prophibited. As for hadiths, I don't reject hadiths altogether. If you have paid attention before quoting me on the subject, I believe in any hadith that can be cross checked and referenced using the Quran.

[PFgulalai]

gulalai,

You didn't have to write that whole essay, much of it was totally irrelevant to the subject. I didn't ask how you felt about it. I didn't ask the pros/cons of pornography. I simply asked if it was possible.

Thanks though.

Oh sorry, you did not specify in you first post that what kind of responses would entertain you?; what style of writing you like?; which specific person should comment on your posts?; or should the posts be long or short?
Should the posts be relevant to what you think or want to hear or not?

Next time make a poll for the questions like the one above to avoid reading essays.

Peace.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Levanaye Zalmaye,

Wrayun,

You contradict yourself left and right. Under such extreme circumstances there is already an underground pr0n market, I can only imagine what will happen when laws that can accommodate such inviolable taboos are implemented. Getting MOAR support from like minded people should be easy. Have you seen those trashy Pukhto mujras? What about those cheap movies? 200 years? I say more like 20. Now days because of such poverty, its a ripe atmosphere.

Trust me it will. Not that I want it to, but you and I both know that the possibility of that not happening is slim.

You have very little faith in the ghairat your fellow Pashtuns.

Hold it tigress! Take it easy. Who says I don't want democracy? Heck if today every Pukhtoon decided to renounce Islam I will support them. I won't necessarily agree with them, but I'll support their choice. Your confuzzling me with some angry European Pakis holding cardboards after a banquet of halva puri. You want for Pukhtoons what YOU WANT. I want for Pukhtoons what THEY WANT. You notice the difference? Before you even ask me how I know what they want, you should know they sure as eggz wont tolerate a secular state under atheists.

Most of the very ardent Muslims on PF (at least) don't want democracy - they, whilst living in the West, think of it as Western filth. They want Shari'ah. Most of them are inspired by Salafi teachers who equate democracy with kufr, though they never miss the opportunity take advantage of the democratic right to propagate their faith. I'm sorry I counted you in as one of them.

halva puri gives me an upset stomach.

You are living in Pakistan, enjoying many facilities provided by the Pakistani state, benefiting from the relatively prosperous economic state of Karachi (compared to your ancestral Pukhtoon village), using the internet made possible by the government of Pakistan with complete freedom while promoting separatist ideas amongst the masses in hope of a secular Pukhtoon state. Aakhir waley? Aakhir waly ehsanmand-i-zardari? Can't Pukhtoons work towards a secular state within Pakistan that will guarantee their rights, autonomy and sovereignty? I see that the name of the province is changed to Khyber Pukhtoonkhwa, Pukhto is being made a mandatory language, the Pakistani state launched AVT Khyber, gradually you will secure more. You have more chances of secularizing Pukhtoons under Pakistan than a separate state of Pukhtoons. Within Pakistan you can at least seep in the secularization, within a separate state that would be virtually impossible.

To draw an analogy between someone enjoying democratic freedoms in the West and calling for his own people to live under theocratic Fascism and someone living in Pakistan and calling for the basic rights of Pashtuns is incorrect. Again, you may not be calling for theocracy but many are. They want Taliban rule.

Since Pakistan is an artificial and fragile entity based on a disproved and defeated ideology, it will, as it never has, give any meaningful cultural rights to its diverse nationalities. The Serbs, I mean the Punjabis, want it all for themselves, you see. But that's another topic, let's not deviate from the one at hand.

You also mistakenly make the assumption that Muslims who live in the West do so because of its GREAT FREEDUMBS! The incentive is economic, not freedom.

That doesn't change the fact that they still enjoy the sort of freedom there that people here onli dream of - that is, the freedom of association, the freedom to express oneself without the fear of being hanged for it, the freedom to discuss issues without being target-killed, the freedom to move up the social-economic ladder, Lady Gaga.

N' last I checked, Pukhtoons were free, whether in Pakistan or Afghanistan. To say otherwise is blasphemy against a people who have fought throughout their history against incredible odds (including superpowers) to remain independent. Just because their sentiments and religion is exploited doesn't make them slaves. They are conservative, they are religious, they are illiterate and exploited, but they are not slaves. Don't insult them.

There is no freedom. There is only a semblance of freedom. That's why it took 60 years of begging to get Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. You think it doesn't hurt me to see the slave-like treatment our people get from Mohajirs and Punjabis and how their wives and children make them toil in the sun and then spit on them and make jokes? Again, that's not relevant to the thread.

[Nick]

Hi there, my name is Wrayun. I am a Pukhtoon entrepreneur. I wish to inquire about this fantastic future secular state that some have proposed. According to some I don't know much about atheism or secularism. I probably don't, so here I am, all ears.

A buddy of mine tells me that pornographic smut is good business (even at times of great economic depression). He has heard a lot about our Pukhtoon women and their uncompromising exotic beauty. Scholars and orientalists alike have written about it. Our neighbors, friends and foes, tease their own women with praises for ours. This niche isn't explored, and due to the scarcity of authentic Pukhtoon flesh in the porn industry, we believe that this will be EPIC and totally CASH!

We hope to start our new porn production soon. With us is a handsome negriod performer (rumor is he is well endowed), anxious to be the first in the industry to participate in this one of a kind erotic adventure.

The title of our production: Zangli Apashi oh Mastay Peghlay

To the point: Do we (or will we) have the FREEDOM, in your (future) SECULAR STATE, to pursuit and explore our (such) entrepreneurial ambitions?



The following advertisement is paid for by happy secular Pukhtoon citizens:

ATTENTION: YOUNG secular Pukhtoon females! We are looking for qualifying participants. Pay is very good. We promise to make your intro into the business smooth and easy. Leave a reply if interested.





Note to admin/mods: There is no vulgarity here, and no bedouin prophet or sky-god insulted. Though, Spaggetti Monster can suck on some spicy kuftaz.

Consider this a personal warning. Everyonbe knows me I never take anything personbal, but u are one nasty person. Say Whatever you want, since this is an Open Forum, I can't do much.

But I pray for once May Allah Give me your throat in my hand and he shell test me of my Afghanyat. Since majority of us in Afghanistan are Muslims if not 99% at least 60%, therefore religouisly speaking any person considering himself muslim would rather give your blood to their farm dogs rather than you having to sell pornography in the name of "Afghan".
The END
You really disgusted me in this Mubarak month, May your Parents never see your dirty body under grave, cause I am sure it won't be accepted.

[Wrayun]

Consider this a personal warning. Everyonbe knows me I never take anything personbal, but u are one nasty person. Say Whatever you want, since this is an Open Forum, I can't do much.

But I pray for once May Allah Give me your throat in my hand and he shell test me of my Afghanyat. Since majority of us in Afghanistan are Muslims if not 99% at least 60%, therefore religouisly speaking any person considering himself muslim would rather give your blood to their farm dogs rather than you having to sell pornography in the name of "Afghan".
The END
You really disgusted me in this Mubarak month, May your Parents never see your dirty body under grave, cause I am sure it won't be accepted.

Grena, I apologize for offending you. Zma sar de sta pa khpo. Staso huqam zma pa stargo.

I know many have misunderstood the meaning behind this topic. But that is something I can live with, because after all, the suggestion here is fictional. I can only imagine if it was real. I'll be skinned alive and fed to the dogs, the dogs feces fed to the birds, and the birds feces fed to fish.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Wrayun,

you were trying to make a point to reveal the fallacy of secularism and pashtun nationalism. I understand what you were aiming at.

But your approach was risky. So the secularists knowing their theories fallacy capitalized on this error of yours by launching a campaign of false accusations against you.

Next time, dont go down this road again. Even if you are right to point out the nonsensical concept of secular liberal pashtun nationalism.

Just dont do this.

[Baygham]

Wrayun,

you were trying to make a point to reveal the fallacy of secularism and pashtun nationalism. I understand what you were aiming at.

But your approach was risky. So the secularists knowing their theories fallacy capitalized on this error of yours by launching a campaign of false accusations against you.

Next time, dont go down this road again. Even if you are right to point out the nonsensical concept of secular liberal pashtun nationalism.

Just dont do this.

accepting defeat wrora,
dont do this and that wrayun, listen to your brother sangar,
your little baby hands may get burned.
Should I get a pacifier (choosni) for you, my little cuddly cutesy baby.


Fallacy my foot, Any more filth, please feel free to share.

[Wrayun]

accepting defeat wrora,
dont do this and that wrayun, listen to your brother sangar,
your little baby hands may get burned.
Should I get a pacifier (choosni) for you, my little cuddly cutesy baby.


Fallacy my foot, Any more filth, please feel free to share.

I have an answer to that, but I risk the fact you bringing my moor, khor and naya into it. So instead, have your lulz. It's on me.

[Baygham]

I have an answer to that, but I risk the fact you bringing my moor, khor and naya into it. So instead, have your lulz. It's on me.

to be honest wrayun wrora, I wish you could imagine a place where you could see yourself living next door to a murtad and not lose your sleep over it, and the same for the murtad too. And in the moring share a ride to work and work on some earthly reconstruction of your delapidated watan.

That childish laughter above is actually on both of us.

[Nick]

Grena, I apologize for offending you. Zma sar de sta pa khpo. Staso huqam zma pa stargo.

I know many have misunderstood the meaning behind this topic. But that is something I can live with, because after all, the suggestion here is fictional. I can only imagine if it was real. I'll be skinned alive and fed to the dogs, the dogs feces fed to the birds, and the birds feces fed to fish.

Ok sorry for Out burst I thought you were serious I almost Quit coming. But Someone exmplaned the whole thing, I did not bother reading all the views or anything and I was confused to what you were saying. But Yeah Next be very careful you can make enemies very fast. Just by beliving in Nationalism it does not mean becoming close to secularism. Our Nationalism has different meaning for every individual, and the cause behind supporting Nationalism is due to the fact that we suffered alot.
I personally believe Nationalism exists in many forms and it also exists in Islam.

I consider myself Afghan nationalist, for me unity of our Ummah is very important before asking for Other brothers to join isn't it important to unite ourselves first, by any means it maybe but our inner unity is far more important. Islam has its way of solving many problems, the world has changed today, but Islam has not, and that's what we love about Islam. I also believe in Islamic nationalism as well support Pashtun nationalism any form of unity is gift of God almighty but our goal is how to achiving it, because convincing our own uneducated people is more important.

[ComradePashtun]

You are a disgraceful person, Waryun. This thread is highly idiotic and on the verge of benamoosi.

Any Pashtun will have your mouth torn to the other end.

Hypothetically, speaking, why don't you use your own sister, mother and other namoos as an example. Or Indeed you should've made a proposal to them of your wild erotic fantacies, which you seem to be quite knowledgeble of, considering what you try to portray yourself. Trying to marry what ever supposedly sane arguement with full-frontal erotic/filth imagination is too much of a contridiction, particularly for a sane Pashtun and muslim to be so openly in a public forum discussing it. Couldn't you do it better? Do you ever wonder your own sister and others in your own family by an chance clicking the thread and reading your fantacies. You need to look inward and think over and over before making such a thread. This is too extreme and you have filthy imaginations which you try to dress with unjustified arguement and principle. I guess, it comes down to the extend of your intelligence and how to put forward an idea you want to defend and argue. Speak of being corrupt!

I couldn't be bothered to read beyond the first page of your repulsive thread, but I couldn't resist not say something.