Future Secular Pukhtoon State and Pornography Laws

[Wrayun]

Islamic law does. Are you preaching than say so, why the pretence.

Who is preaching and who is pretending? This thread is not about Islamic law but secular law in light of a Pukhtoon state. If you have nothing valuable to add instead of the usual tirades, I suggest you keep them to yourself.

Muslims are not blood thirty beasts. Islamic law imposed on a population allows blood thirsty behaviour to be manifested. I am not against the peaple I am against the doctrine. Like an AIDS patient, I dont hate him, I hate the disease.

So according to you millions of Pukhtoons suffer from AIDS, and you have the cure? On one hot bedouin day, an Arab watched over the heathen Pukhtoons and said the exact same thing. You get the drift?

I am not stupid to fall for that one. Your childish attempts to equate the call for progress through unity, diversity and tolerance with fear mongering to touch on the most sensitive of pashtoon values is cunning, vile but I must say quite well thought off. None the less, no body is falling for it. It is no different than what mullahs used to say, when pashtoons children started going to schools set up by baacha khan. I quoted that above. So keep yapping.

Good excuse. It's not about falling for it, its about you knowing that if you answered that in terms of secularist ideals, you face social rejection. The more you ignore these questions, the more you expose your folly.

ps, Baacha Khan also suffered from the Islamic AIDS, though the non-violent type.

[Wrayun]

Are you really satisfied with your paranoid statement?
Do you think pornography has not developed in the non-secular Pakistan, with the same pace as that of India? And about the Mullah's lust, it is all reflective of the hypocricy the religious circles have, who in turn advocate theocracy.

Which paranoid statement?

And I'm sure I don't have to tell you that Pakistan is anything but Islamic.

[Wrayun]

Levanaye Zalmaye,

Wrong answer. The correct one was, "God is always watching".

God doesn't exist remember? Looks like I'm wearing you out buddy. Pretty soon you'll be reciting Fatiha facing Mecca.

I still prefer mine.

Willful ignorance, like subscribing to man-made morals.

Wrong. Read my post again. Democratic institutions protect your rights created by you (yourself) and protected by your own appointed representatives. What that means is that if you want porn, gather enough like-minded people (2/3rds sounds just about good enough) and bring about your change. If 2/3rds don't agree, you're gonna have to survive on your black-market pr0n or you can Google "horse sax" like the rest of your Pakistani brothers and survive on that. I doubt you'll ever get that number of porn-lovers in our part of the world. Your right to say anything you want here on PF also comes from democracy. A theocratic dictatorship would ban such exchanges faster than you can say camel porn.

You contradict yourself left and right. Under such extreme circumstances there is already an underground pr0n market, I can only imagine what will happen when laws that can accommodate such inviolable taboos are implemented. Getting MOAR support from like minded people should be easy. Have you seen those trashy Pukhto mujras? What about those cheap movies? 200 years? I say more like 20. Now days because of such poverty, its a ripe atmosphere.

I never said it will happen. I said it may or may not happen, we can't tell.

Trust me it will. Not that I want it to, but you and I both know that the possibility of that not happening is slim.

People who've never been deprived of freedom never knows its true value. You, along with the rest of the "We want Shari'ah" and "democracy can go to hell" crowd are hypocrites.

Hold it tigress! Take it easy. Who says I don't want democracy? Heck if today every Pukhtoon decided to renounce Islam I will support them. I won't necessarily agree with them, but I'll support their choice. Your confuzzling me with some angry European Pakis holding cardboards after a banquet of halva puri. You want for Pukhtoons what YOU WANT. I want for Pukhtoons what THEY WANT. You notice the difference? Before you even ask me how I know what they want, you should know they sure as eggz wont tolerate a secular state under atheists.

You are living in the West, taking advantage of everything achieved by the West after it broke the chains of religious slavery 400 years ago whilst dreaming about implementing an absolutist theocracy on us. Aakhir waley? What have we ever done to not deserve what you enjoy on a daily basis? Are we subhumans who should only be ruled by the stick and you're a proper evolved human being who is the only one deserving of freedom? Do you think you would've achieved what you have in a theocracy? Our people deserve better than the Taliban and their thinly veiled allies.

You are living in Pakistan, enjoying many facilities provided by the Pakistani state, benefiting from the relatively prosperous economic state of Karachi (compared to your ancestral Pukhtoon village), using the internet made possible by the government of Pakistan with complete freedom while promoting separatist ideas amongst the masses in hope of a secular Pukhtoon state. Aakhir waley? Aakhir waly ehsanmand-i-zardari? Can't Pukhtoons work towards a secular state within Pakistan that will guarantee their rights, autonomy and sovereignty? I see that the name of the province is changed to Khyber Pukhtoonkhwa, Pukhto is being made a mandatory language, the Pakistani state launched AVT Khyber, gradually you will secure more. You have more chances of secularizing Pukhtoons under Pakistan than a separate state of Pukhtoons. Within Pakistan you can at least seep in the secularization, within a separate state that would be virtually impossible.

You also mistakenly make the assumption that Muslims who live in the West do so because of its GREAT FREEDUMBS! The incentive is economic, not freedom.

N' last I checked, Pukhtoons were free, whether in Pakistan or Afghanistan. To say otherwise is blasphemy against a people who have fought throughout their history against incredible odds (including superpowers) to remain independent. Just because their sentiments and religion is exploited doesn't make them slaves. They are conservative, they are religious, they are illiterate and exploited, but they are not slaves. Don't insult them.

[Badlun]

Why these Islamists and religious extremists dont understand a very simple point that Islam is the religion of Pashtuns which only governs the beliefs,worship and religious morality and at the same time Pashtuns have a culture and society called Pashtunwali which in a secular state will control the social evils like pornography or other such vices if the religion cant control or manage it.

A secular state always give religious freedom and if pornography is against the religion and culture and society of Pashtuns, a secular state will never impose it on Pashtuns. The secular Pashtun parliament will have religious Pashtun members who will always legally and constitutionally protect the culture , religious values and social norms of Pashtuns.

Turkey is a secular Muslim state but it does not mean they let porns of Turkish women in such a free way. Dont make secularism a monster. It just separate religion from politics and let the religious people to manage religious affairs and the political people to manage politics. There Taliban wont become Mullas and governors at the same time.

[BehavedMaseed]

Logically speaking pornography should be legal in a secular state. What's wrong with it. If two willing individuals are willing to get it on infront of the camera with their own free will and get paid for it, then whats wrong with it? They are not harming anyone.

Those who say pashtuns will be different under secular law are forgetting that there is not one secular nation in which pornography is prophibited. Both the production and sale is legal in all secular countries. What makes people think it will be different in pakhtunistan?

Once you remove Islam from people's mind, all you are left with is culture and customs and they change pretty quickly once people get educated and indoctrinated by western garabe.

Is the killing of Sufis,shias and qadiyanis allowed in a Secular state?

Timbaktu in paradise there will be 72 virigns who will be white and have black eyes and there will be large amounts of wine and alots of sex. Isnt this pornography too since it sexualises the viewer/readers mind with lust and pleasure?

You guys can never accept logic. Lewanay Zalamay made it clear so many times to you guys but as usual following a faith with a blind eye makes its followers stupid sorry to say.

You complain about the west when infact you sufis would be slaughtered for grave worshipping in a wahabist country.

In a Secular Country Pornography can be prohibited just like how Suicide bombing wont be prohibited in a Islamic country.

If in islam you guys dont ban Suicide bombing then why do you argue about pronography eh?

I oppose Pornography because it exploits women, I also oppose Islamic shariat backward Laws because it teaches men to look down upon women. I oppose Sex in public because it will cause problems but I also oppose lashing and stoning women to death and I also oppose this Islamic rape cases whereby the women has to use 3 male witnesses at the scence, talk about backwardness

The people who started this thread is arrogant to the fullest. You guys generalise too much on Secularists

When people generalise on Muslims for instance, you guys are very quick to run for justice under a secular system to save your back sides.

Like you say in a secular system pornography will be allowed, I didnt know timbaktu can predict the future, did your sufi magic wand show you this, but in a future Islamic state, Sufis such as timbakhi would be slaughtered for grave worshipping, THere will be a constant state of war mind within the citizens of Islamic state because they are taught every year they should atleast attack one non-muslim country(abdullah Azzam). Under a Islamic State Women will be forced to stay in their homes and be sexual slaves because if they dont have sex with their husband, then the angels will curse them throughout the night.

You see I generalised there just as you have generalised about Secularists.

If you want to talk about pornography lets talk about the forced rape of women under Islamic law:-

"If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning" (Bukhari 4.54.460)."

What will these imginary angels do to the wife of a husband?

I mean no offence but if we can also generalise as well on people who want islamic law.

Kind Regards

[Badlun]

Behavedmaseed
I can only salute you to your stamina, your knowledge, your energy, your narration of facts in such a lucid manner..its hilarious,,,,,,its great ,,,,,,I am impressed God or nature whatever you deem appropriate may bless you ,,,,

[BehavedMaseed]

Maseed I would reply to you if you just concentrate on the topic at hand rather than going on one of your infamous rants. Please stick to the topic.

The topic is pornography and secular state. you can create other threads to discuss you points.

pa dranawai

Iam sticking to topic but sadly you cant digest what i said.

You speak of Pornography yet your religion speaks of lots of sex and wine in the paradise? that comes right under pornography which is stimulates ones mind with lust and pleasure.

I then gave you the example of generlisation whereby you guys speak so ill of secularists but if we speak about the evil side of Islam and Islamic law you guys dont like it and say its wrong.

I then speak of marital rape allowed in Islam and you guys say secularists are filthy and allow pornography?

Then I gave you the example of Suicide bombings and the hatred amongst Muslims vs Muslims, sufis vs wahabiss and the constant teaching of Islam about dominating the world through swords and quran, and yet you use only pornography against secularists???

You guys run for your life to get some secularist justice, why dont you go to saudi arabia for your rights and justice eh?

Its not infamous Rants! your mureeds would be slaughtered by many muslims for grave worshipping but under a secular system you guys can sell as many taweeez as you want.

Kind Regards

[BehavedMaseed]

you are still not sticking to the topic at hand but anyways.

As a secularist youself Maseed, are you pro or against pornography and please state you reason? thx

I am against Pornography because it exploits Women.

In a future Pashtun secularist state I am sure there will be many Good and Strong willed Femnists such as Qurratgai to improve womans rights and that includes preventing the legalisation of pornography but also stopping Religionous Clerics From brainwashing the people about Marital Sex in Islam and Paradise orgies.

You see in a secular society if somebody or a group of people oppose for instance Pornography they will have the right to form unions, councils and groups to educate the public of the disadvantages of Pornography, and people with the power can make a change other hand in a Islamic State the public can not protest nor oppose any law or ruling without being beaten up by the so called Moral Police.

That is my view. Secularism does not mean Porngraphy. Secularism Basically means keeping religionous radicals away from running the country and being involved in politics and it has done alot of benefits for western countries thats why many Religionous conflict zones around the world have fled to western secular countries. People from Afghanistan,Pakistan,Uzbekistan,Kurds,Iraqis, Somalians and Nigerians have all fled to Western Secular Countries for a good reason but their blind following of faith wont allow them to stand up and admitt it.

Kind Regards

[ijaz yousafzai]

I think it is the height of concept deficit to equate pornography with secularism.Pornography is on the rise as a global phenomenon,throughout the world.You can not specifically attribute it to the creed of secular philosophy.Yes, Capitalism acts as a catalyst and provides nourishment and support to human vices, and pornography is one of them. The " Arabian nights" carry irresistable temptations and ecstacy for pleasure seekers, in the privacy of capatilist polities.The Arab sheikhs are notorious for their sexual ventures throughout the world. Dubai, in the recent years has emerged as the paradise for such tirades, surpassing Paris in the West and even the Western holiday mongers choose it for pleasure worshipping.If we can sum it, pornography is against Pakhtunwali,the code of ethics of the Pakhtuns, hence it will not be allowed to be institutionalised in a secular Pakhtun state. The whole discussion is meaningless.

[akbarkhan]

I am against Pornography because it exploits Women.

What if some women are staunch feminists and want to be porn stars? Because "it is so empowering" for them?

And as a secular what makes you think it is exploitation? After all they are willing to do it, they are making alot of money for an hours job and they will turn around saying "we enjoy it".

[PFgulalai]

gulalai:

Hello Wrayun, my name is gulalai and I have been (self-)assigned......

FAIL! (not very secular)
Do you really think that the rest of your rhetorical contextual diarrhea deserve a serious reply? I think not..

And so is your unintelligent approach of measuring the moral uprightness of secualrist Pashtuns though the legalization of pornography for Pashtuns in 2010. You need to do some homework to open up your "constipated" mind to understand my "rhetorical contextual diarrhea" in response to your conundrum.

So far, not a single one of you have addressed this issue seriously. Instead, all I have gotten is personal attacks. I am crazy, my mother deserved that treatment, I am a dalal, I am paid, I am they enemy, I am jealous of Pukhtoonwale (all the while I am trying to defend it and protect it) etc. etc.You people seriously think that you are educated? You don't even realize that with this sort of attitude you fail in epic proportions.
Oh btw, the donkey in our village never showed any ghairat when the kharkar beat it silly. Plus comparing the concept of ghairat to donkeys kick in itself is an insult of Pukhtoons and Pukhtoonwale.

Well if you think that appreciating your "marketing strategey for the flesh of the Pashtane" will make me sound educated, then not only extremely stupid but quite funny,lolz. There was no need of coming up with a hypothetical situation (like your "business plan") if you could not appreciate a hypothetical answer. I don't care either.

There is nothing profane in the topic, there is nothing vulgar. It is a mere suggestion. For a free thinker you are very intolerant of ideas. If you are offended, that's you. In a secular state if there are Pukhtoon women who wish to do porn, their rights should be respected. As an atheist secularists you dont have to agree with them. You dont have be ashamed for them. It would be just like me suggesting to you to wear burkha, or do satar from the strange men walking on the streets of New York, or your professors, or you colleagues because I am offended. In that case you would tell me to go take a hike. Which you should.

With your understanding of the concepts of morality, secularism, atheism, free thinking, profanity, culture, and pornography, I don't think you will ever be able to see the blunder you made in your first post.
First come first, free thinking and secularism has nothing to do with pornography.Just because someone in the secular state stands up and ask the government that I want to kill my neighbor because of XYZ reason, the secular government will allow the person on the basis that it has to prove to the people like you that they are practicing secularism. While you make laws, you consider not only the existing cultural norms, but also the impact of those laws on the present and future generations. In that context, you "business plan" would not be acceptable to any secular Pashtun in authority (not some in individual XYZ) as of August 28,2010 for the reasons that it has the potential to do more damage than good. I can further elaborate for you with another example of Stem Cell Research in Countries. In many secular countries, for instance USA, the stem cell research is only allowed on human embryos that are supernumerary (that are surplus).The only fate of these human embryos is to either become scientific tools or to go to garbage.Let's analyze the benefits and harms. Benefits of stem cell research are uncountable.They are our only hope to treat some of the terminal neruodegenerative disoders like Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease. The only way to get stem cells is to use human embyos.The source of human embryos are the Invitro fertilization clinics where multiple embryos are produced for prospective parents and only few are implanted in the uterus of the woman.The rest of the surplus embryos are either discarded, frozen, or are donated to scientific research. However, just because such embryos can provide therapeutic benefit does not justify the purposeful creation of human embryos and subsequent utilization by scientists.For instance, the commecialization of these embryos is one such issue; Physicians/researchers can pay extra money to the woman to produce more embryos; the woman is on supraovulation and hence her health is at risk; and it could "incentivize a black market for abortions". Well just because the scientists would tell us that stem cell research is crucial and that the laws should be made lenient to provide them freedom to do their research without consideration of the moral issues does not justify the specific creation of human embryos and utilization in labs.
Similarly, just because Dr. Richard Seed supports human cloning on the basis of its potential to stop human aging does not necessiate the relaxation of the laws of human cloning.Just because secular Pashtuns demand the separation of Mullah from Hujra does not mean that they are immoralists without any cultural and social values and have no sense of differentiation between "right" and "wrong" on the basis of existing social and cultural standards.

Humans do not live in an absolute constipated world like that of yours Wrayun where you think of a free thinker devoid of any moral beliefs. Person X is a free thinker and believes in the freedom of expression. Person X sees person Y killing Person Z. Do you expect Person X to appreciate Person Y's act because Person X is free thinker? What constitutes as moral vs immoral does not have to originate from god. It is the general moral belief system of humans which tells us what is the right" vs "wrong" and not, what is the "correct thinking". There are billions of God-bearing believers who know the "correct thinking" as preached to them through scriptures and sermons, yet they still commit crimes and considering the number of believers more than non-believers, the collective burden of crimes fall on more on the shoulders of God-fearing believers than non-believers.Hence the presence of God seems to be of little importance to 85% population of the world.

In sum, the Miller test (assumed here as one based on the existing Pashtuns social and cultural standards) shows that pornography laws could not be legalized in 2010 for the simple reason that it is not compatible with our culture.Yes I am secular and I believe in the freedom of expression and basic human rights to all individuals regardless of sex, religion, race, political affiliation,etc.But that does not mean that I am blind to the exploitation of the woman and children in pornography.In my personal opinion pornograpy potrays women as androcentric objects and humiliate women by degrading their self-respect for the pleasure of the men. Women are also not less than sexual objects when the husbands perform "marital rape" or "forced sex" against her will.I don't approve both.

About the "profane" content (not all of the post) in your first post:

A month ago, a scientific article describing the evolution of male duck genetalia was posted by a member here in the Science section which was initially highly criticized for its "adult content" (http://www.pashtunforums.com/science...ormation-4589/) and later the "title" of the article was changed to suit the existing standards of our forums (http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...the_other_guys). That incident stopped me from posting another scientific article where the synthesis of new therapeutic gel for treating HIV in females (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/...-hiv-gel_N.htm).

This raises a concern:Why should be care about so much about educating you by allowing your "profane" post on this forum when we can't be tolerant to the evolution of duck genetalia? Furthermore, you could have simply asked a question like "will you allow pornography law" rather than coming up with your cheap and vulgar "hypothetical business plan" and putting that vulagar AD for the Pashtaney here. It was not even humurous (as you thought) and was not even sarcastic (give me a break!!). Rather all it depicts is the absurdity and obscenity in worst form

[Dreamer]

Love these long essays!

[Baygham]

Muta'h is unislamic, furthermore Allah swt forbids all acts of lewdness. Taping one's spouse is an act of utter lewdness!
.............................................

Not according to millions of shia, I did not ask for hadith. According to quran it can be done. Your not agreeing with it just shows that one can disagree about Quranic verses. Hence the whole mess.

As far as lewdness is concerned, where is it mentioned in the Quran that videotaping something lewd. Is videotaping a flower lewd. Is video taping your family lewd or only if they take some items of clothing off. I need guidance guys, Wrayun, my dear quranist wrora come and guide me here.

Show me how will you stop the video taping of a 13 year old pushtana (lets make her shia) under your Quran.

[/I]There are even Sahih Ahadith indicating that partners should not look at each others sexual organs. Ever thought why people in i.e Afghanistan have sex with lights off?

stop making hadith, and I asked for our koranist to answer. Show it in the quran.

Originally by Baygham
his wrayun islamaist, got me thinking and I realised he can fullfill his dreams under his version of islam.

He said in one post that he does not care much for Hadith, that tells me he is a pervaizay (koranist-is the more fashionable term these days).

Well dear, line up your porn stars, have them sign an agreement under the Quranic verse 4:24. "Then give those of these women you have enjoyed the agreed dower" as revealed on the subject of the mut‘ah marriage.
Have the mut‘ah marriage end in a week or two after shooting is over.

Then start shooting, their is nothing in the Quran that prohibits a married couple videotape a sexual encounter.

hey you can even bypass child pornography laws (such a filthy western secular concept- you would say). Well nothing holding you from that either. Line the 13-14 year old in the same way as well.

Now with all your knowledge show me How you will stop someone in your islamic republic from shooting porn this way using only the Quran.

[Wrayun]

Baygham,

You need to go first answer me like the big secular atheist man you should be instead of saying I'm not going to fall for that one.... I am not a quranist or pavaizi or any other category you can place me. If you want an answer to this (which I can happily provide), go answer me first.

Don't be shy.

[Wrayun]

gulalai,

You didn't have to write that whole essay, much of it was totally irrelevant to the subject. I didn't ask how you felt about it. I didn't ask the pros/cons of pornography. I simply asked if it was possible.

Thanks though.