Dear Sangar

[Catya Sher]

While we're waiting for Mr. T Pashtun to be released from the Lubyanka, where he was taken after the trip the unspeakable mausoleum - he fainted at the sight of the statue of Feliks Dzerzhinsky nearby. Our silent debater remembered him from either a dream or his recent past life when the Comrade here was a Russian Bolshevik informer for this founder of the forerunner of the KGB. It all makes sense to him now; why, out of the PashtunComrade's relatives, only he was interested in Communism, eagerly taking classes in Theories of Dialetical Materialism as part of his major in Leninist Studies!

A few other questions meanwhile --

IllBehaved, why don't you post your videos, then. So those who don't yet know you can analyze you?!

S -

I have been meaning to ask about the Jilani/Gailani - was that a typo? Or, you meant different one?

Were Maulavi Yunis Khalis and Mohammad Nabi Mohammadi in a different camp, then, than either the neo-Ihwanis or the Sufis?
I always thought the latter was solidly with the 3-party alliance called moderates.

And so Yunis Khalis was more traditional tribal perhaps? Conservative Islamic but NOT really a Ikhwani type?

This is fascinating. I want to better assess who was exactly whom now that the passage of time makes it more evident.

[ComradePashtun]

Before I can answer that, I need to explain something about Pakistan.

Pakistan is a failed state. Its a creation of the British empire. During the days if British occupation of the subcontinent a group of people joined the British administration as public servants. They were Hindus, Muslims, Punjabis, Sikhs, Sindhis, Pashtuns and Baloch.

When the British left South Asia, the just handed over the authority over the region to their former slaves and puppets of the colonial age.

We all know how Pakistan was created by the Ismaili apostate Jinnah. The country was as Islamic as India. Nothing makes Pakistan islamic. The government is secular, the laws are British secular laws, and islam is just used to fool the masses. In fact, I could argue that Indian government might be more just than the Pakistani government. But this is a subject for another discussion.

Pakistan is run by a small group of rich families who hail from the same group of people who use to serve the british empire. They were born and raised to think of themselves as servants of the English. This is why many political leaders of former colonies are inhumane, corrupt and ruthless. They have experienced a lifestyle where there was a situation where one group dominated the rest.

So when the British left the subcontinent, these families inherited the control over India and Pakistan. The hostility between India and Pakistan was never about Islam or Kashmir. But rather because the elites in Pakistan and India needed to rally public support against an enemy. Every society needs an adversary in order to recognize itself. You know who you are when you know who you are not. And this is exactly why Pakistan has developed itself as a bastion of islam. Where in reality, the society is more corrupt and un-islamic than your average European country.

This new desire for identity and self image was partially the driving force for the religious figures to rally support for their cause. Since the country was extremely divided along ethnic and linguistic faultlines, it was only natural that sectarian division should emerge as a by-product to the already existing polarization.

A society divided internally along so many different faultlines where each group is searching for its own identity and role in society is bound to become extremely unstable. Moreover, it is prone to manipulation. All though the british left the subcontinent 60 years ago, their control over the politics of Pakistan never ceased. Likewise, other countries tried to influence pakistan by endorsing certain groups and movements. China, Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, USA, Britain and if I am not mistaken, even India supported some movement or group at a certain point in Pakistans history.

What does all of this mean for pakistans government and administration?

basically, a country where there is so much division, there always will be a strong need for a single power block that can crush any opposition to the central government. This is why the pakistani army played a keyrole into the shaping of Pakistans domestic and foreign policy. Since the army was founded and created by the British, naturally, the british empire remained to play an important role in the future of pakistan after independence.

While the Army was the most dominant movement in Pakistan, other groups and factions managed to develop themselves and organize themselves. After the independence of eastern pakistan, the threat for more division and internal hostility was in the air. And the reason why in the 70's Pakistani elite tried to change the country's image and turn it into a conservative fundamentalist state was because they wanted to unite the country and prevent further division and internal hostility.

The war in Afghanistan fell like blessing from the sky for the pakistani military and political elite. While a few skirmishes with India did not grant pakistan any glory, the hopes and wishes of Pakistani elite was renewed when a new adversary was approaching Pakistan from the north.

The threat of communism was a blessing. Thanks to the Russian advancement towards Afghanistan, initially via mobilizing the communists in Afghanistan and later by spreading socialist propaganda, pakistan managed to profile itself as an important player in the cold war. The strategic position of Pakistan, its new islamist image and its hostility with the pro Russian India was perfect. Soon, United states, Saudi Arabia and many other wealthy countries started pumping billions of dollars into pakistan to support and mobilze the Mujahedeen.

The Mujahedeen in Afghanistan, meanwhile were threated by the coupe d'etat of Daud Khan. Daud Khan was very close to Russia and his coupe was supported by the Afghan military that was trained, supported and influenced by the Soviet Union.

The Afghan Mujahedeen were infleunced by the Ikhwanul Muslimeen movement from the middle east. While the socialists and communists were trying to get rid of the pimp, Zahir Shah who reigned over Afghanistan for 40 years squandering the countries wealth on cheap European hookers, gay porn and fancy cars, the country was stuck in the pre-industrialized 19 century.

Likewise, the Islamist youth wanted an utopian Islamic state based on the ideas of hasan Al Banna, Sayyid Qutb and Abdul Ala Al Maududi.

When the communists allied with Daud Khan took control of Afghanistan, the Islamists feared that they will loose their chance to convert Afghanistan into an ideal islamist state. So they started a rebellion against the new regime of Daud Khan.

This rebellion was supported by pakistan and the aforementioned other countries.

The Islamists were not the only group of religious figures who opposed the new regime. While the islamists were inspired by Ikhwanul Muslimeen, another group of religious figures was seeking the reestablishment of the monarchy. They were the Sufis from the Jilani, Gilani and Mujadidi families. The Sufis represented the pro royalist elites and feudals. To them, the Ikhwani Islamists and the Communists were enemies.

But once the Army generals of Afghanistan helped Daud Khan to overthrow Zahir shah, the Sufis had no other choice but to join the Ikhwanis.

Around the same time in the late 70's the Shi'ite revolution in Iran was another important historic event that was going to shape the war in Afghanistan in the upcoming decades.

While the Sufis were divided into the Qaderi, Naqshbandi, Chisti and Maulavi branches, the Ikhwanis were divided into the neo Islamists like Hekmatyar, Rabbani, Massoud, Sayyaf. And the more conservative and orthodox Yunus Khalis and Nabi Muhammadi. On the other hand, there wasa Shi'ite movement supported by the new Iranian government.

Pakistan saw the internal division of the Jihadi movements and their ideological differences as another blessing. Inside Pakistan, as mentioned before, there were already many divisions along various ethnic and sectarian faultlines.

The arrival of the Islamists into Pakistan after Daud Khan's coupe d'etat demanded for an official state policy. Since the ruling elite of Pakistan was incapable of enforcing its laws and codes of conduct and social norms on its entire population, it was also incapable of managing the Jihadi movements and appointing one single leader to the whole jihadi community. But this turned out to be yet another blessing for pakistan. Different groups and movments already existing in the Pakistani society embraced different factions of the Jihadis from Afghanistan.

This is how the Peshawar 7 were created.

Once the war in Afghanistan started to heat up, and the Russians were forced to invade, the money kept poring from all sides into Pakistan.

Pakistani elite never ever has managed to control the country as a whole and to civilize and unify the nation into one single being. The exstremely divided and internally hostile population of Pakistanis was a big challenge for pakistan to deal with. But trying to benefit from the chaos and dispair was considered as a great apportunity.

So the pakistani elite, used the situation in Afghanistan to enrich itself with the money that was pouring into Pakistan. The Army generals, the pro government mullah's the civil political leaders and other notable figures all became multi millionairs within a decade.

The pakistani army and secret service adapted intself to the newly emerging enironment and focused all of its operations on how to profit from the war in Afghanistan.

Once the USSR was defeated and left Afghanistan, Pakistan no longer needed to invest time and effort into the Jihaids from Afghanistan. Soon, assassinations followed of important jihadi leaders and many channels of aid and support from Pakistan were closed for Afghan refugees and Mujahedeen.

this led to the civil war that was bound to happen in Afghanistan because of the existence of so many different jihadi movements with different leaders with different motivations.

The civil war created a new problem for the already weak and unstable Pakistan. While the Jihadis were butchering each other and massacring the people of Afghanistan, a new influx of refugees from Afghanistan arrived in pakistan fleeing the horrors of the civil war in kabul where people were cooked alive and women were gang raped on the streets.

After the departure of the Russian army from Afghanistan, a group of Mujahedeen started to return from the battle field and they tried to pick up their regular old lifestyle before the war. Some key figures in the war, like Maulavi Yunus Khalis called on other leaders to lay down their weapons and to burry them in the ground in case another attack on Afghanistan occurs in the near future. Many men who were sincere devout muslims and patriots stopped fighting.

But the most power hungry and greedy leaders such as Rabbani, Sayyaf, Gulbuddin, Baba Ali Mazari along with the communist militia's of Dostum continued to fight for dominance and control over Afghanistan. Which led to the massacres and destruction of the early 90's.

Many Afghans were extremely disappointed, many mujahedeen from the different factions were very worried and concerned about the civil war. The humiliation and the horrors caused for grave concern among the men who faught the Russians for almost 10 years.

People like Yunus Khalis, Jalaludin Haqqani and others tried to stop the civil war by encouraging dialogue and negotiations. But to no avail.

Meanwhile a group of men under the leadership of Mullah Omar started an uprising against the warlords of the Sufi movment Gul Agha Sherzai in Qandahar because of the rampant sexual abuse of little boys and gilrs.

Pakistan was watching the whole scene closely. When the Taliban movement emerged in kandahar as a grass root movement to re-establish order, pakistan realized that this movement could succeed in bringing long term stability in the neighboring country which was beneficial for trade and other interests of pakistan. So pakistan supplied the taliban with weapons and some money to help their movement to advance forwards. The movement of Mullah Omar was received with open arms all across the southern Pashtun belt. people from other factions, such as Yunus Khalis movement, some Hizbi Islami commanders and mullahs, Sayyafs commanders and many other figures gave their pledge of allegiance to the new leader who promised to bring peace and stability and to disarm to bandits and looters.

But after the establishment of the Taliban regime, Taliban never received any more than the first initial 9 million dollars in cash they received from pakistan.

The country was in shambles, there was no trade, no agriculture, a total braindrain and above all few consequtive rainless years.

The Taliban government had no tax revenues, there was no trade nor industry, everybody left Afghanistan way before Taliban emerged and their strict laws prevented the educated secular elite of Afghanistan from returning back because they loved music and their gillette more than their homeland and poor people.

Afghanistan was left to its dispare and nobody was giving Afghanistan any finanical aid. Many of my cousins and other distant relatives were guards, commanders, firefighters, teachers, police investigators, military academy professors etc during the Taliban regime. They all received lousy salaries, they could not live off. The ones who met Mullah Omar say that he himself was wearing old shoes and old clothes and would eat simple food like common people.

Taliban were clueless of how to do politics how to deal with other countries, how to re-organize the government. They were Taliban. Not even fully graduated students of madrassahs. They wanted to bring peace, but they did not know how.

So they failed miserabely on many grounds. Their weak domestic policy in economics and other fields and the difficult circumstances they were situated in unabled them to bring about any positive change.

Meanwhile, a former friend of Golbudin Hekmatyar and Sayyaf, Osama Bin Laden made some enemies after he left Afghanistan. Once his mentor Abdullah Azzam was killed, and the Russians were gone from Afghanistan, he returned to his home country, Saudi Arabia. There he found himself in a country that has succumbed to the Americans and American troops were stationed all across the holy land and Iraq was attacked where many innocent Muslims died.

Bin Laden tried to convince the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Bin baz to change his stance regarding the American troops, but Bin Baz was determined to please his master, the king of Saudi Arabia. And did not accept Bin Laden's advice. This led to hostilities between Saudis and Bin Laden. So bin laden packed his bags and went to north Africa for a new adventure. He declared war against America and he was no longer welcome in Saudi Arabia, so he stayed in Sudan for a while. Soon the heat caught up to him and he was forced to flee somewhere else. Afghanistan was burried in rubble and there was a civil war going on. Once the Taliban captured Kabul, he thaught that the Taliban would be more than happy to receive him. So he returned to Afghanistan in 1996 hoping that the Taliban would support his war against America.

Once in Afghanistan he realized that the Taliban did not have a foreign policy. Neither did they planned to go to war with any other country. So he started appearing in the media making bold statements and threatening America.

The Taliban were at that time occupied with civil war with the Northern Alliance who received aid from Russia, China, Iran, India, Usa and France.

After the 1998 attacks in Kenya, the Taliban banned Bin Laden from talking with the press any more. And at some point in that period of time, even his walkie talkie was taken from him. he was attracting too much bad press, while the taliban were burried in problems of their own. Last thing they needed is a trouble maker as their gues who was declaring war against the whole world.

So the treated him with respect because of his sacrifices back in the early 80's. But he was on a virtual housearrest untill 2001.

The Taliban tried to negotiate with the Saudis to deliver them Bin Laden. Because the Taliban needed financial aid and they were hoping that the Saudis would continue to aid Afghanistan. But because of Bin Laden, they limited their chances of receiving any aid.

During this period, ISI did not play any role in the domestic politics of Afghanistan. Once the shura of 1500 mullahs in Kandahar declared Mullah Omar as Amirul Momineen, the Taliban movement became an independent political entity that later became the legitimage government of Afghanistan.

Mullah Omar never was an agent and never will be. He had his own independent political orientation and the Shura of the Taliban is not under the influence of ISI. This is all speculations and lies.

The Americans wanted to overthrow the Taliban regime because the Taliban refused to accept Unical's offer to build pipelines through Afghanistan. Hamid Kharzai, who was a consultant for Unical arranged the negotiations between Americans and the Taliban.

But when Taliban told Americans that they are not accepting the Americans offer but rather take the offer from the Argentinian company, the Americans threatened to carpet bomb entire Afghanistan. This was somewhere in mid 2000. Soon after that, Americasn positioned their combat troops and special forces in Uzbekistan, Tajkistan and Panjsher valley in Afghanistan.

After 2001, the Americans invaded Afghanistan and the pakistanis apprehended thousands of Taliban and other civilian random Afghans and surrendered them to the Americans. In fact, Parvez Musharaf was responsible for the starvation of Afghan refugees in Peshawar because he banned them from receiving any food or water. This because his masters in America ordered them to do so.

Around 2000 and 2001 before the invasion of Afghanistan, the tension between pakistan and Afghanistan was at all time high.

After the invastion of Afghanistan, it soon became clear that Pakistani elites had a deal with the Americans all along and they even handed the Abottabad military complex to the Americans specifically to serve as a launghing pad to attack Afghanistan.

Ever since, Pakistan has received billions in aid in order to fight the Taliban. Thousands of Afghans are lcoked in prisons in Pakistan and tortured.

But, as I have explained in the beginning, the pakistani society is internally divided. The Islamization of the 70's and 80's triggered to reshape pakistan and to give it a strong Muslim identity created a blow back effect for Pakistan. many of its new generation public servants were schooled and infleunced by the conflict n the last 30 years. many Pakistanis sympathize with the Mujahedeen of Afghanistan. The support for Afghan Mujahedeen is very common and widespread in Pakistan and the rest of the world.

So it is only natural to see members of Pakistani military and probably even ISI supporting the Afghan taliban. While the central government of pakistan suffered many disasters, regime changes and all other sorts of crises, a large portion of tis population has grown alianted from the central government.

People distrust the failed state, the rigged elections, the puppet regime of Zardari installed by Americans and the ruthless Army.

Many people wo serve in the army and governmetn actively act against their own government.

This phenomenon is common, not only in Pakistan. But in other former colonies like in Central and West Africa and Central and South America.

The current pakistani government is extremely uncapable and ineffective to do anything to meet its own goals and objectives. Pakistani foreign policy is primarily oriented towards America. It seeks funding and support from America by serving as a perfect client state in order to become eligible for grants and loans.

People who think that Pakistan is somehow a very smart entity capable of fooling the whole world are probably drunk. pakistan can't even whipe its own behind. How can Pakistan control a succesful insurgency in Afghanistan, and simultaneously receive billions in aid from America?

Are Americans that stupid to give billions of money in order to see the same money being used against itself?

America is loosing the war in Afghanistan. They want to create a smokescreen to hide their injuries from a embarrassing defeat.





Taliban is not a political movement. It does not have a sophisticated political body of intellectuals who can design and outline its future. Its a collective of religious figures who have joined hands based on their experience and common interest in the recent past as mujahedeen figthrers who have expelled the Russians. And are now resisting colonization by the Americans and their allies.

Taliban are still maturing as a movement. They do not have a strong ideological orientation of their own. There are people from all walks of life who have joined the taliban movement. There are lawyers, doctors, taxi drivers, herdsmen, farmers, students of universities and religious seminaries, mullahs, hairdressers and even former communists. They have all joined hands for one particular reason. Because they want to fight Americans, its allies and the northern alliance who have braught pain and suffering to our people.

Taliban are the most popular and the most dominant movement in the southern pashtun belt. If you have studied the ICOS report and last years general Flynn's report about the capability of Taliban and their relationship with the local population, you would have known that the Taliban are by far the most popular group in the southern pasthun belt. Aside from that, the northern regions of badhakhsan, Qunduz, baghlan and Badghis have a large pashtun population, plus a strong religious community of non-Pashtuns like the Badakhsani Tajiks and the Aymaqs who also support the Taliban movement.

Would the Taliban really be impopular and hated by the people of Afghanistan, then they wouldn't have gained the military success of the past 4 years.




a list of my military advangages? I am not the Taliban. But I will give you a few things you can ponder upon:

First of all, the Taliban represent the rural population of Afghanistan. over 70% of Afghanistan. Even if half of that 70% sympathetic to the Taliban, then that would be more than what the Americans and their puppet regime of communists and warlords could ever have.

Secondly, the current puppet regime of nihilist apostates, sodomists and drug dealers are created from the remnants of the ruthless northern alliance who were responsible for the butchering and massacres of over 50 thousand civilians in Kabul. NOBODY in Afghanistan forgets the crimes of the people who are now chiefs of army, vice presidents and cabinet ministers.

Thirdly, the Taliban are primarily people from those parts of Afghanistan that have led the most succesful insurgency against the communists in the 80's. Helmand, Kandahar, uruzgan, Zabul, Paktika, Paktia, Khost, Wardak, maidan, Logar, Nangarhar, Kunar, Laghman, Baghlan, Badakhshan, Qunduz, Herat and badghis are all areas where the Russians faced heavy losses and suffered high casualties. The people of those regions have a fresh memory of a war against the modern invader. Some of the commanders of the 80's war are now commanders in the current war.

And last, The Taliban movement is highly motivated. They do not receive any salary, they fight for themselves. For their own future. And for their children. Not for a few dollars, Korean cigarettes, Bollywood movies, hashish and boy dancers. Thats what the ANA and ANP are fighting for.

This is why in the last 4 years, the ANP and ANA were butchered by the Taliban. While many ANA and ANP defected to the ATaliban.




What other question?

Sangar,

You and your like minded are naive kids with hot blood and just hot air is abundant in their disposal which you constantly blow from all sides in the forum.

I know more about Taliban than you may ever find out in your entire life through your foot soldier cousins...

You seriously don't need to try too hard and write along fruf in here for me based on what you believe, althought this is not to say that I disagree with your selected factual arguement. As a Salafi, the black and white version of islam adherent; it is mind-boggling how swiftly when it suits your line of arguement you will have no problem with western concepts such as "failed state" to brand Pakistan as one (which means nothing and is controversial by itself) to further your tunnel-vision. It really is presposterous, Mr Sangar jaana. This tells me alot about you arrogant and condescending kid.

I honestly don't need you to tell me who you may have known and what the role of your cousins were during the Taliban. Infact we all do have some form of association with them, espacially Pashutns from southern Afghanistan. Infact, I have no problem with Taliban per se or them being a part of our society, it is a fact and reality. I, however, don't share their vision and political model and ideology - which I don't think they have one that can congeal to the reality of Afghanistan. You have said enough, enough to condemn Taliban to be part of anything to do with state-hood and having a claim over the faith of our nation. Infact, to tell you the truth, if we now lived in 1990s, in that exigent period, as I did when they were in power, I would be the one again to support them and defend them better than you. Wrora, I personally through family and other associates have known more than 5 Taliban influentials who are know to the world. You know nothing about them and their top echelon. I visit Afghanistan constant basis, unlike you who is far-fetched from reality and is ignorant to what is really happening there. I know more about your beloved Taliban, about their political organisational and military structure and its relation to Pakistan. Infact Taliban as an entity was recessive to pakistani manipulation and superiority through the madrassa structure and its Ulema and its foremidble ISI. Having control over them is a differnt matter and can be discussed seperately and ciritically, which a complex matter and I don't mind debating when I have time next. Infact some of the crucial Pakistani strategic objectives never materialised and were only hamed by greater degree by Taliban. This whole thing of Mullah Omar Mujahid Akhund, his charisma and drawing inspiration of Robin Hood of his era is just half of the truth! Infact the idea which then your Taliban found themselves to be the Taliban goes back to 1994. This is when previous ISI chief General Nasir was replaced with Gen. Javed Ashraf in which a new strategy was invokek under your Nasrullah Babar. After paying visits to Afghanistan, he met Islamel Khan in Herta and at that time his immediate goal was to have access to Trukministan. The Taliban militia was originally organized to ensure the security of the road and the free movement of the convoys between Quetta and Ashkabad. The Taliban launched its first military operation inside Afghanistan when it helped relaease a Pakistani convoy captured by the local commanders in Novermber 1994. The convoy was/had been oraganised by the Pakistani National Logistic Cell. The success of the Taliban provided a new opptunity to the Pakistani government to prop up a pro-Pakistan government in Kabul.


Pakistan's support to the Taliban is well documented, and the creation of a military force was obviously made through massive ISI support.

DO you know how Mullah Rabani died, he died in mystry. And what about Mullah Burjan?

I will join you in other relevant threads, the one about insurgency and population support and having debate your certain your false claims.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sangar,

You and your like minded are naive kids with hot blood and just hot air is abundant in their disposal which you constantly blow from all sides in the forum.

I know more about Taliban than you may ever find out in your entire life through your foot soldier cousins...

You seriously don't need to try too hard and write along fruf in here for me based on what you believe, althought this is not to say that I disagree with your selected factual arguement. As a Salafi, the black and white version of islam adherent; it is mind-boggling how swiftly when it suits your line of arguement you will have no problem with western concepts such as "failed state" to brand Pakistan as one (which means nothing and is controversial by itself) to further your tunnel-vision. It really is presposterous, Mr Sangar jaana. This tells me alot about you arrogant and condescending kid.

I honestly don't need you to tell me who you may have known and what the role of your cousins were during the Taliban. Infact we all do have some form of association with them, espacially Pashutns from southern Afghanistan. Infact, I have no problem with Taliban per se or them being a part of our society, it is a fact and reality. I, however, don't share their vision and political model and ideology - which I don't think they have one that can congeal to the reality of Afghanistan. You have said enough, enough to condemn Taliban to be part of anything to do with state-hood and having a claim over the faith of our nation. Infact, to tell you the truth, if we now lived in 1990s, in that exigent period, as I did when they were in power, I would be the one again to support them and defend them better than you. Wrora, I personally through family and other associates have known more than 5 Taliban influentials who are know to the world. You know nothing about them and their top echelon. I visit Afghanistan constant basis, unlike you ignorant to what is really happening there. I know more about your about their political organisational and military structure and its relation to Pakistan. Infact Taliban as an entity was recessive to pakistani manipulation and superiority through the madrassa structure and its Ulema and the ISI so called infrastructure. Having control over them is a differnt matter and can be discussed seperately and ciritically, which I don't mind debating when I have time next. This whole thing of Mullah Omar Mujahid Akhund, his charisma and drawing inspiration of Robin Hood of his era is just half of the truth! Infact the idea which then your Taliban found themselves to be the Taliban goes back to 1994. This is when previous ISI chief General Nasir was replaced with Gen. Javed Ashraf in which a new strategy was invokek under your Nasrullah Babar. After paying visits to Afghanistan, he met Islamel Khan in Herta and at that time his immediate goal was to have access to Trukministan. The Taliban militia was originally organized to ensure to security of the road and the free movement of the convoys between Quetta and Ashkabad. The Taliban launched its first military operation inside Afghanistan when it helped relaease a Pakistani convoy captured by the local commanders in Novermber 1994. The convoy was/had been oraganised by the Pakistani National Logistic Cell. The success of the Taliban provided a new opptunity to the Pakistani government to prop up a pro-Pakistan government in Kabul.


Pakistan's support to the Taliban is well documented, and the creation of a military force was obviously made through massive ISI support.

DO you know how Mullah Rabani died, he died in mystry. And what about Mullah Burjan?

Thank you for your well informed and productive contribution to this discussion. I have learned allot.

[ComradePashtun]

And Mullah wannabe Sngara,

You mentioned something about Mullah becoming the leader of Taliban in some Shura. Well let me tell about the Shura, this is by the way a first hand accound from a person who I see on almost daily basis nwadays. He became the Ameer-ul-mo'meneen, in a Shura in Spin Boldak where dozens of ISI and Pakistani military generals were present. I don't want to go into the role of Pakistani military in devising and even preparing for some battles and their contribution. Lets leave that for now.

[ComradePashtun]

Thank you for your well informed and productive contribution to this discussion. I have learned allot.

It is not a problem, I really wonder if you really mean what you say. It is very unusual of you to say something like this. Apologies for the typos.

[khushal]

Sangar These are points that dont make sense:
it doesnt make sense when you say that the taliban was trying to make negotiations with the saudis to try to hand osama over. The Taliban follows the pashtunwali code, they had given him saymo (refuge) once you giive refuge to someone, it is their duty to the death to protect him. That is the reason they didnt hand him over to the americans.

Pakistan was created to divide the Indian subcontinent from an Islamic Superpower from emerging in the future. The population of the Indian Subcontinent would have been 1.6 billion people with about 40%-50% of them being muslim and growing. They say that Pakistan was created to prevent the dominance of hindus over muslims but history shows that has never happened in a thousand years, muslims always ruled because of them being against the caste system which is unfair to the population. Today instead of china being the upcoming super power it would have been india if it would have been allowed to stay intact.

Camradepashtun your theory of the oil pipeline from turkmenistan seems unlikely since the construction of the oil pipeline hasnt even started yet.

when osama returned back to saudi arabia he didnt find a country that had succumded to the americans, when the first gulf war started he realized that arabs were ordered by americans to shoot at other arabs and he realized that if the afghanis can beat the russians with overwheming odds against them why cant the arabs also stand up for themselves

The civil war in afghanistan wasnt a problem for pakistan it was created by them so the afghans can be easily controlled. The looters looted the whole country and brought back the goods into pakistan and sold it for pennys on the dollar. The civil war was a huge profit for them. Pakistani elites are so afraid of a strong afghanistan because its leadership thinks that the country will eventually break in two along the indus river, half of it being swallowed by afghanistan and the other half being swallowed by india, that is the fear in pakistan. its survival depends on a weak afghanistan

[ComradePashtun]

Where did I mention oil pipeline and what theory? I clearly stated in subsequent to the Turkeministan route its commercial importance for trade and the role a Taliban militia played in securing that route and releasing Pakistani convoy. This is no theory it is fact.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Sangar These are points that dont make sense:
it doesnt make sense when you say that the taliban was trying to make negotiations with the saudis to try to hand osama over. The Taliban follows the pashtunwali code, they had given him saymo (refuge) once you giive refuge to someone, it is their duty to the death to protect him. That is the reason they didnt hand him over to the americans.

It might not make much sense to you. But maybe you should inform yourself about our recent history. The Taliban regime was fed up with their macho guest. So they were negotiating with Saudis to extradite him because he was accused of a crime. Taliban are Muslims who act upon Shariah. The reason why they gave refuge to someone and refused to give him to Saudis are two seperate things. I dont think Pashtunwali can be applied here as a theory to explain the two.

First of all, Bin Laden was never invited by the Taliban. But once he decided to come, nobody objected, since the Taliban were not on bad terms with Arab Jihadists.

However, their situation became complicated when Bin Laden was causing problems.

And any Islamic country who really stands for Islamic justice, would strive to seek the most lawful resolution of conflicts.

This is why, the Taliban were divided on the Bin Laden issue. Some argued that he is causing more harm to Muslims than benefit. Therefore they did not want to ruin their political ties with other countries, including Saudi Arabia. But some senior Taliban members distrusted Saudis and did not believe that handing him over to Saudis would be the right thing. SO it never happened up untill late 2001. Right after the attacks, the discussion was re-opened and serious suggestions were made by some senior Taliban figures who wanted to to deliever Bin Laden to Saudis or Pakistan. Because they wanted to prevent the situation to worsen or to allow Americans to use this as an excuse to invade Afghanistan. But America did not accept the terms and conditions Taliban suggested.

Pakistan was created to divide the Indian subcontinent from an Islamic Superpower from emerging in the future. The population of the Indian Subcontinent would have been 1.6 billion people with about 40%-50% of them being muslim and growing. They say that Pakistan was created to prevent the dominance of hindus over muslims but history shows that has never happened in a thousand years, muslims always ruled because of them being against the caste system which is unfair to the population. Today instead of china being the upcoming super power it would have been india if it would have been allowed to stay intact.

What are you trying to say here? Is this something you wish me to answer? I dont understand what the question is.

The civil war in afghanistan wasnt a problem for pakistan it was created by them so the afghans can be easily controlled. The looters looted the whole country and brought back the goods into pakistan and sold it for pennys on the dollar. The civil war was a huge profit for them.

This implies that the Pakistani elite were so desperate and hungry that they supported the civil war in Afghanistan because they loved junk?

Pakistani elites are so afraid of a strong afghanistan because its leadership thinks that the country will eventually break in two along the indus river, half of it being swallowed by afghanistan and the other half being swallowed by india, that is the fear in pakistan. its survival depends on a weak afghanistan

Yes, and likewise, America fears a strong state in Afghanistan that can divide Pakistan. Because it is in America's interest that Afghanistan never becomes independent and that a proxy state with a subservient army like Pakistan always remains in the region.

This is why the theory of Pashtun Nationalists and Northern Alliance that Pakistan is controling Taliban doesn't make any sense.

[ComradePashtun]

Snagara,

Taliban leadership is inside Pakistan and in Pakistani control at the moment, what ever that is tantamount to!!!

We are no longer concerned with the Taliban of 1990's.

[khushal]

I dont beleive that the ISI is in complete control of Taliban, otherwise they would have given up bin laden, because the ISI told them to and they said no. Aslo the ISI asked them to recognize the Durand line and they said no to that as well.
The pashtunwali code has alot do to with them not giving him up. I do realize that the taliban were divided on giving him up or not, but I do remember Malu Zaif saying on tv that he is our guest and we can not give him up because of our culture, if you want to try him in court it has to be in afghanistan. Now that is the code of Saymo (giving refuge)
let me get back to you on the other points

[khushal]

This is off topic but I also beleive that although it is in almost nobody’s interest to say so, I’ve come to doubt the existence of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal. The fact that Israel seems unworried and that all five of Pakistan’s nuclear tests were set off on a single day are the main reasons for my suspicion. To be thought to possess nuclear weapons is almost as good as actually having them. when it comes to deterring India or satisfying the nationalistic passions of the Pakistani people. The United States and China, each for it’s own reasons of state, may have cooperated to create the appearance of Pakistan being a nuclear power, though whether those reasons still obtain it is difficult to say.

[tor_khan]

First of all, Bin Laden was never invited by the Taliban. But once he decided to come, nobody objected, since the Taliban were not on bad terms with Arab Jihadists.

However, their situation became complicated when Bin Laden was causing problems.

And any Islamic country who really stands for Islamic justice, would strive to seek the most lawful resolution of conflicts.

This is why, the Taliban were divided on the Bin Laden issue. Some argued that he is causing more harm to Muslims than benefit. Therefore they did not want to ruin their political ties with other countries, including Saudi Arabia. But some senior Taliban members distrusted Saudis and did not believe that handing him over to Saudis would be the right thing. SO it never happened up untill late 2001. Right after the attacks, the discussion was re-opened and serious suggestions were made by some senior Taliban figures who wanted to to deliever Bin Laden to Saudis or Pakistan. Because they wanted to prevent the situation to worsen or to allow Americans to use this as an excuse to invade Afghanistan. But America did not accept the terms and conditions Taliban suggested.

I have read/heard/spoken to many people who have offered me variations on the last part, but broadly, I'm beginning to think that the idea that bin Laden's presence was beginning to trouble the Taleban is worth investigating.

Whilst generally fairly young, many Taleban were, on the surface articulate and intelligent. I have an Arab friend who is married to a non-Pashto speaking (Pashtoon origin) lady and contemplated moving to Afghanistan during the Taleban years. He was offered a land incentive to do this. Let's take the notion of a return to peace and Islamic justice under the Taleban (and there are many who continue to claim that the Taleban were unselfish). Supposing this was the case - WHY did the Taleban not hand bin Laden over, when it was obvious that the Americans would use this as an excuse to come in? Arguably, the bloodshed followed could have been spared.

Were the Taleban, ultimately, simply too naive to govern in a multi-faceted political world?

[Catya Sher]

Re Khushal,

I have considered that same idea, or more likely that the nuclear arsenal is not all it has been made to be. Something DOES seem strange that Israel AND America don't harp on it the way they do about Iran's still non-existent military nuclear capability.
One has to examine the very different approaches closely.

Perhaps too, Israel has some back table hand in the Pakistan nuclear situation? I pray not. Otherwise the Israeli press would NEVER let up. You would hear it day and night at the highest decibels. Like they do about Iran. Some agreement must have been reached re Pakistan. Or, like you say maybe Pakistan is simply not as developed in their program as the world has been led to believe.

Re Tor Khan,
Interesting points.
A couple possibilities: maybe the Taliban didn't fully believe that the US would descend on them like an avenging Fury [of Greek mythology] the way it did. Maybe they imagined they could stretch out the time and find a better solution.
I don't think they were naive. I see them as having a native shrewdness to them which many so-called sophisticates lack due to perhaps confusion due to too much worldly life. These people were more simple and focused in their lives. Hence not all the clutter which would cloud their perceptions.
It's a very good question, maybe more memoirs will be published to shed SOME light on this topic. But usually the person either doesn't know the full truth, or won't release it for whatever reasons.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I dont beleive that the ISI is in complete control of Taliban, otherwise they would have given up bin laden, because the ISI told them to and they said no. Aslo the ISI asked them to recognize the Durand line and they said no to that as well.

Of course.

The pashtunwali code has alot do to with them not giving him up. I do realize that the taliban were divided on giving him up or not, but I do remember Malu Zaif saying on tv that he is our guest and we can not give him up because of our culture, if you want to try him in court it has to be in afghanistan. Now that is the code of Saymo (giving refuge)
let me get back to you on the other points[

You are confused. The reason why they didn't give him up wasn't just because of Pashtunwali. Bu because there was no evicence against him. Just allegation.

By bringing up Pashtunwali you are suggesting that Pashtuns harbor criminals.

Taliban are innocent of harboring criminals. c

[شمله ور خراساني]

I have read/heard/spoken to many people who have offered me variations on the last part, but broadly, I'm beginning to think that the idea that bin Laden's presence was beginning to trouble the Taleban is worth investigating.

Whilst generally fairly young, many Taleban were, on the surface articulate and intelligent. I have an Arab friend who is married to a non-Pashto speaking (Pashtoon origin) lady and contemplated moving to Afghanistan during the Taleban years. He was offered a land incentive to do this. Let's take the notion of a return to peace and Islamic justice under the Taleban (and there are many who continue to claim that the Taleban were unselfish). Supposing this was the case - WHY did the Taleban not hand bin Laden over, when it was obvious that the Americans would use this as an excuse to come in? Arguably, the bloodshed followed could have been spared.

Were the Taleban, ultimately, simply too naive to govern in a multi-faceted political world?

Giving up Bin Laden without sufficient evidence against him just to prevent blood-shed is a nonsensical argument.

First of all, Americans decided to invade Afghanistan way before 9/11. Americans already positioned their assault troops in Uzbekistan and Panjshir.

Blood shed was unavoidable because Americans had made up their mind before 9/11.

So why would the Taliban give him up without evidence against him, while knowing that there are bombers and special forces in Uzbekistan since 2000 preparing an invasion?