Can Kaafir Pashtun Nationalist represent Pashtuns in Politics?

[akbarkhan]

Are you trying to say that you can disprove that the Vedas is not from God, or the Zend Avesta or the Kitab-e Quds? I would like to see you disprove them.

To disprove the Quran is not hard, it has a lot of foul language and it is full of contradictions. I am sure that God does not speak foul or contradicts Himself, now does He?

If the onus is on us to disprove the Quran then it is also on you to disprove ALL scriptures. A task I am sure you will NOT be able to accomplish, for I am 100% sure you have never ever studied those religions. You adhere to Islam because you are born into it. Simple.

Actually I am very familiar with Vedas and Avesta, particularly Avesta. There are no contradictions in Quran, infact Quran is the only scripture which poses an open challenge to the entire humanity! And the challenge is, either bring a verse similar to a verse of Quran or if you are truthfull then change a single verse of the Quran with all your might and ask for help from who so ever you wish! And this challenge is open till the last day! You and your fellow disbelievers have had alot of time and still have a lot of time to meet that challenge! Da gaz da maidan!

As far as me being born into Islam, far from it! Don't be judgemental little kid! I have been there, done that! The streets on which you frontin on right now, I used to run it back in the day!

[Dust]

What you have said is irrelevant. I have posted some contradictions work with that, and show us otherwise. Also, the Quran has foul language. It says that those who don't believe are bastar-ds. It viles those who don't adhere to it. Which kind of "pure" God talks like that?

[Dust]

Also, if you are well acquainted with other scriptures then tell us why it is not from God, uncle.

[Wrayun]

Who misleads, Satan or Allah?

Satan says (4:118-120):

Allah did curse him, but he said: "I will take of Thy servants a portion Marked off; "I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and to deface the (fair) nature created by Allah." Whoever, forsaking Allah, takes satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest. Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception.

Allah says (16:93):

If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people: But He strays whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases: but ye shall certainly be called to account for all your actions.

First quote refers to the intention of Satan purposefully wanting to mislead people. The second quote is in reference to what God allows to occur, whether people are guided by Prophets or mislead by Satan, in the end all things can only come to pass by Gods decree. Which would make sense if God created Satan and allows him his existence, and if God created Prophets, and allow them their existence.

This one says 8 (2+4+2) (41:9-12):

Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance). Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience." So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

This one says 6 days (10:3):

Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority), regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not receive admonition?

Days in these verses can be interpreted as epochs or aeons. The first quote of 2 days talks about the creation of the Earth. The second talks about the creation of the Heavens and the Earth i.e. it took me 2 days to write a letter but total 6 days to complete it and send it.

Personally, I consider it futile to discuss scripture in scientific terms, because (this is going to sound cliche but) it must be discussed in context, there are various interpretations, and people will always find a way to fit it to their present understanding.

[Dust]

I don't think you have done justice in explaining.

The whole discussion arose from the one member who claimed for us to disprove that Quran is not from God.

By you admitting that everything prone to interpretation, as such, how can one disprove something being from God or not?

[Wrayun]

I don't think you have done justice in explaining.

The whole discussion arose from the one member who claimed for us to disprove that Quran is from God.

By you admitting that everything prone to interpretation, as such, how can one disprove something being from God or not?

I don't think I did justice to those versus either since I gave you my personal understanding. Plus I am not a scholar. However those versus made sense to me based on my personal interpretation. Others can interpret them as they like and might require "more".

By you admitting that everything prone to interpretation, as such, how can one disprove something being from God or not?

As I said, it is futile to do so. Hence, a leap of faith, is required.

[Dust]

I concur!

As such, religion is all based on interpretation based on one's limitations. Therefore, one should never claim that one's religion is superior over another religion, as some members on this thread, because everyone can prove their religion as superior and infallible and disclaim someone else's beliefs.

That is why I say that a kaafir can lead the Pashtun towards prosperity.

[Wrayun]

I concur!

As such, religion is all based on interpretation based on one's limitations. Therefore, one should never claim that one's religion is superior over another religion, as some members on this thread, because everyone can prove their religion as superior and infallible and disclaim someone else's beliefs.

That is why I say that a kaafir can lead the Pashtun towards prosperity.

But at what cost? If the kaafir would require the Pukhtoons to be reformed to the point where they are no longer Pukhtoon like, who is the kaafir helping in prosperity? The kaafir will be proselytizing Pukhtoons to yet another foreign concept, idea or opinion. Adding yet another group of people to a long line of a collective. In any case, supporting such proselytizing is equivalent to treason.

[Dust]

That is not necessarily true. Today, Pashtun, who are Muslim, have mishandled, Pashtun, who are Muslim. So, your objection does not hold. A secular state does not need to meddle in the ideologies of people.

[Wrayun]

That is not necessarily true. Today, Pashtun, who are Muslim, have mishandled, Pashtun, who are Muslim. So, your objection does not hold. A secular state does not need to meddle in the ideologies of people.

My objection holds on solid logical grounds and not based on "what if".

I can argue that today Pukhtoons who are secularists, atheists, haven't launched a single armed struggle for the liberation of the Pukhtoons in Afghanistan and Pakistan. While the religious Taliban, both the Afghan one and Pakistani one, have fought on both sides to protect their lands, autonomy, and independence against invading armies whether Muslims or non-Muslim (leaving aside conspiracy theories of pan-Islamic agenda orchestrated by Muslims states using these Talibs as proxies, which might be true or not, thats beside the point). I can also argue that more than once, the irreligious Pukhtoons have supported one or another invasion and occupation of the Pukhtoons.

[Dust]

My objection holds on solid logical grounds and not based on "what if".

I can argue that today Pukhtoons who are secularists, atheists, haven't launched a single armed struggle for the liberation of the Pukhtoons in Afghanistan and Pakistan. While the religious Taliban, both the Afghan one and Pakistani one, have fought on both sides to protect their lands, autonomy, and independence against invading armies whether Muslims or non-Muslim (leaving aside conspiracy theories of pan-Islamic agenda orchestrated by Muslims states using these Talibs as proxies, which might be true or not, thats beside the point). I can also argue that more than once, the irreligious Pukhtoons have supported one or another invasion and occupation of the Pukhtoons.

I beg to differ.

Those Muslim Pakhtun who have done something physically, what have they achieved aside, from making their own people destitute?

Further, a progression towards prosperity needs brains and arms at the helm. You have brains among the secularist Pashtun and manpower among the religious Pashtun. The problem that arises is the lack of unity among the two. The religious consider the secularist worthy of killing, hence, ruining what brains they have among their race. The secularist request the religious to not shove their ideology down their throats and unite for the sake of the race only. The religious say no, we don't like nationalists. It is a lose-lose situation. The only way to unite and prosper is for the religious to understand that in a secular society your beliefs and women and children will not be corrupted. Religion is a personal issue. Being "bad" has nothing to do with secularism, it is a flaw in the logic.

This is the only solution. The religious Pashtun have to understand that they can't shove their non-religious brethren to the curb. They have to come to a consensus. Moreover, if the religious are being ruled by a non-religion Pashtun it does not mean that they have sold themselves. It simply means that the government is being run by someone who simply cares for a stable Pashtunistan, one in which there is so much peace and tranquility that the religious and non-religious can live side by side.

Now, let us consider what if we have a secularist Muslim who is at the helm. This would work great. He would make sure that both sides' needs are catered to. He can relate with the Muslims and he can understand the secular needs of constant forward thinking.

You can't just have warriors without a brain, or intellects without courage. You need them both. As it stands, most Muslim Pashtun have been polluted by religious radicalism who hate every ounce of those who don't adhere to their ways. So, they lack the brains to live in peace with everyone regardless of faith. And those Muslim Pashtun who have not been polluted cannot speak out, otherwise, they will be considered kafir and worthy of killing. Moreover, you have the secular Pashtun who don't want to be Arabized or religionalized (I think I just made up a word, not sure) . The whole balance is in the hands of the religious Pashtun. They have to find a middle path, if they wish to see their people unite.

But that won't happen, the religious will never accept that. They don't care for a Pashtun unity. They think they will go to hell if they unite their people. They believe that people should only be united for the sake of God. What they fail to realize is that many secular societies function perfectly fine where Muslims can practice, and even preach their faith. The irony is that these people love the advantages of living in secular societies but they just don't want it for their own people, because religion, i.e. Islam, is the only means to control the minds of their own people. Progress, in their understanding, can only be credited to the religious think-tanks, it gets them brownie points in the presence of God.

[akbarkhan]

What you have said is irrelevant. I have posted some contradictions work with that, and show us otherwise. Also, the Quran has foul language. It says that those who don't believe are bastar-ds. It viles those who don't adhere to it. Which kind of "pure" God talks like that?

It is very relevant! Other books don't pose any challenge, infact all other books have different accounts and versions! Quran has not changed in over 1400 years! If Quran had a single contradiction then believe you and me that disbelievers would have ripped the Muslim world apart way too long ago.

What you have posted are not contradictions, you think they are contradictions because you don't fully understand their Tafseer.

Which verse of the Quran includes the word 'b a s t a r d'?

[akbarkhan]

I beg to differ.

Those Muslim Pakhtun who have done something physically, what have they achieved aside, from making their own people destitute?

Further, a progression towards prosperity needs brains and arms at the helm. You have brains among the secularist Pashtun and manpower among the religious Pashtun. The problem that arises is the lack of unity among the two. The religious consider the secularist worthy of killing, hence, ruining what brains they have among their race.

Oh so secularists are the brains and the religious ones are the village idiots?

Seriously?

Is that why the religious ones have created a quagmire for the worlds 50+ greatest and technologically advanced countries?

Wearing mini-skirts, drinking alcohol, reading some futile political theory and wearing a tie doesn't mean you have brains! The ones with intellect know their Lord and have the power to shape history! Those who don't just talk non-sense and jock on other's organs for a two minute fame.

The fundamental science on whose columns the western world stands firm is partly an Islamic gift to the world, read history or ask your science teacher! Without Islam and Muslim scientists the west wouldn't be where it is!

[Dust]

It is very relevant! Other books don't pose any challenge, infact all other books have different accounts and versions! Quran has not changed in over 1400 years! If Quran had a single contradiction then believe you and me that disbelievers would have ripped the Muslim world apart way too long ago.

What you have posted are not contradictions, you think they are contradictions because you don't fully understand their Tafseer.

Which verse of the Quran includes the word 'b a s t a r d'?

A Muslim and a Christian were debating. The Muslim turns to the Christian and says I cannot comprehend what you are saying. The Christians, cornered, says, you need the Holy Ghost. The Muslim says, how can I attain the Holy Ghost? The Christian says, you just have to believe.

You arrogantly said that there is nothing wrong with the Quran. I presented a few points. Knowing you are cornered, you got out by telling me "you think they are contradictions because you don't fully understand their Tafseer." Good one.

If you have comprehended the "Tafseer" then post it. Remember when I said that you adhere Islam to be correct because you are born a Muslim? Is it clear now why I made that remark? Further, you have failed to prove why the Zend Avesta is not from God.

If you are asking me where the word " 'b a s t a r d'" is mentioned in the Quran, then it just goes to show, and further solidifies my stance, that you are a blind follower of Islam. You don't even know what your book contains. It is a pity people like you are trying to make a point when your whole foundation is based on hearsay. Truly pitiful. : (

According to your book, it says that those who are disbelievers are doubtful of birth ( 'b a s t a r d').

Is the Quran suggesting that all those who reject Islam are b a s t a r d s? Was Abu Talib a b a s t a r d or was Abu Lahab?

[Dust]

Oh so secularists are the brains and the religious ones are the village idiots?

Seriously?

Is that why the religious ones have created a quagmire for the worlds 50+ greatest and technologically advanced countries?

Wearing mini-skirts, drinking alcohol, reading some futile political theory and wearing a tie doesn't mean you have brains! The ones with intellect know their Lord and have the power to shape history! Those who don't just talk non-sense and jock on other's organs for a two minute fame.

The fundamental science on whose columns the western world stands firm is partly an Islamic gift to the world, read history or ask your science teacher! Without Islam and Muslim scientists the west wouldn't be where it is!

You don't even know what secularism is. A Muslim can be a secularist.