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**BehavedMaseed** · 08-22-2010, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by akbarkhan View Post

Islam theologically and literally means 'submission to the will of God' hence Islam does predate 7th century Arabia as there are historical accounts and geological evidence of people, tribes, cities and prophets that have submitted themselves to God and declared His Oneness since the dawn of our existence.

Furthermore, Allah swt refers to all the prophets of the previous generations as Muslims - starting from Adam. Now I know that you perhaps don't believe in Quran and Adam (instead you rather believe in Lenin, Trotsky, Marx and Engels) and therefore you might try to disregard this argument but then the onus is on you to prove Quran as non-divine & wrong.

@aseer khan don't waste your time, effort and talent on spoon-fed toddlers.

Again you are claiming christians and Jews as Muslims. They were not followers of Arab Islam. Arabs stole from Christianity and Judaism and invented a new faith called Islam.

Even the names of those in Christianity and Judaism are been arabised. You cant just appear from no where and then claim those who were established before you were Muslims.

If Christians and Jews are Muslims before Islam then why doesnt Islam accept them now? why cant they go to heaven and paradise? There was no such thing as a Muslim before Islam came to exist.

Again your source is the Quran which is a fairly new book while the bible and torah outdate it much longer. The example I gave before about Pascal

He invented the law of gravity, a apple hit his head and now imgine a new relgion states that he was a Muslim and Allah curse him for being faithless and followers of pascal will not go to heaven.

People Did not follow any one god since the existance of Mankind, Paganism is what most of the world followed.

Why shoulnt Aseeer debate with us? is it because Pir Ro khan already debuked your False Insults towards Nationalism and on the other hand you wanted to establish a Loy Afghanistan. Show bestow upon others your own weaknesses.

No logical nor sane person will accept that before Islam they were Muslims. There is no record of it besides a book written in a cave in hira or somewhere by an Arab and his friends to rival Jews and invade the world.

Kind Regards

**Bengal_Tiger** · 08-22-2010, 08:58 AM

The majority of the atheists and Kafirs on this forum are ignorant and full of self-contradictions too countless too mention, however Marxism has failed and is unnatural to the human condition as it is not a holistic ideology which fully understands humanity, merely seeing humans as an assembly of different bones, flesh, nerves and so forth.

Marxism itself was part of a wave of German philosophy and was an attempt to explain history in the same scientific methodical manner as scholars were doing with the natural sciences. It was an attempt to, as it were, apply neat, tidy Newtonian principles to history, to have a systematic understanding.

It failed both intellectually and in the real world, in terms of its prescription for a society based around communes (hence the term communism).

There are many factors and variants which contribute to historical events and human behaviour with Marxism attributing everything to socio-economics. This does not account for conflicts which may start for example based on arguments over marriage or love (the classic "Helen of Troy" thesis, there are many conflicts which have started over love and other personal human feelings and not just mere socio-economics).

1. The ANP of the 1970s and 60s or rather their precursor the NAP (National Awami Party) was heavily influenced by Marxism and like many atheists now was bedazzled by the fancy new terms and concepts they learnt in their English language books and Urdu language books and viewed themselves as intellectually superior to the "naive" Pashtun masses.

This infatuation with being "learned" made the NAP/ANP quite attached to the Urdu language which is why the NAP/ANP did not make Pashto the regional language of the then NWFP as Bhutto did with Sindhi in Sindh.

2. Pashtun society is heavily conservative, but this conservatism does not emanate solely from Islam. Swara for example is not based on Islam but based on tribal values. Pashtun society is heavily patriarchal but this is due to Pashtunwali. Apparently when the Taliban were trying to implement their own version of "sharia", the local Swatis objected to the idea that a girls consent would be required for marriage.

3. Pashtuns are very religious and prior to the ANP electoral win Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa was run by the Deobandi dominated MMA.

4. The most powerful institution amongst Pashtuns is not the ANP, the PMAP or the PSF but simply the "khel" (tribe) and jirga. It is the tribe, and jirga which has and still protects Pashtuns including the jirga and mashwera of many pious conservative Pashtun tribes who are devoutly religious to resist the Taliban (Pashtun tribesmen are far cleverer and shrewder than people realize and were not fooled by the TTP's religious rhetoric or emotionally blackmailed in to thinking they were being sinful by not following them). Tribes such as Yusufzais and others formed tribal lashkars and the TTP (an ISI creation) could do nothing.

Also the tribal Pashtuns of the FATA dislike the ANP whose traditional support-base is amongst low-land Pashtuns or the Peshawar valley.

These tribes disliked Bacha Khan (rahmatullahi alaih) and they would never accept an outright atheist and Kafir, and it is these FATA tribes, especially the Karlanri tribes such as the Waziris, Mehsuds and Orakzais who are the most powerful and martial of the entire Pashtun nation. In fact it is said even Ahmed Shah Abdali (rahmatullahi alaih) never had full authority over them, such is their dislike for external interference (including outside Pashtun interference.

4. This forum is not representative of Pashtuns in any way and is merely a collection of western-raised BBCDs or ABCDs (British/American Born Confused Desis and a few other secularists in Pekhawar) who cannot speak Pashto properly and do not know Pashtunwali.

Real power is ultimately in the khel and in jirga.

5. The majority of what secularists and Kafirs here try to promote is fallacious propaganda.

For example the Quran mentions prophets not just in three areas but in:

- Iraq.
- Egypt.
- Yemen.
- Hejaz.
- Filastin.
- Turkey.

In early Islamic history we know that Muslims were aware of and had contact with China, Russia, Europe and so forth.

Also related to another erroneous post in another thread the existence of Bangladesh is fundamentally and most primarily a rejection of ethnicity over religion and for the primacy of religious identity over ethnicity.

a. Muslim Bengalis were the first to engage in religion based identity politics in South Asia and as early as 1904 called for the partition Bengal into Hindu West Bengal and Muslim East Bengal.

b: The Muslim League was founded in Bengal, Dhaka in 1906 and it was in East Bengal the Muslim league had its strongest support.

c: On the eve of the 1971 war of liberation most Bengalis wanted a united Muslim Pakistan but one which was just politically, it was only Yahya Khan's military action that moved the Bengali masses to wanting outright independence, when their women and children were being killed.

However this is not a rejection of the primacy of Muslim identity.

There is more chance that Bangladesh would re-unite with Muslim Pakistan ( I am speaking theoratically, Bengalis would rather die than re-united with Pakistan, a state which itself will disintegrate) than with Hindu India.

In Bangladesh, when India and Pakistan play cricket 95% of people support Muslim Pakistan.

However the Bengali people who are by nature intellectual and politicized rejected unfair political relations with the former west Pakistan.

In a Pashtun context, Pashtuns like Bengalis are Muslim first and Pashtun second and this includes the majority of the ANP who are proud Muslims (a month or two ago on my facebook I saw a picture of ANP members in a prayer break during a cultural day in Pekhawar), anti-Islamic secularists and Kafirs such as British Pakistani Kafir, KafirMaseed have no chance in trying to destroy Islam amongst Pashtuns and to make Pashtuns leave Islam.

Other than that AkbarKhan is fundamentally right, I myself don't waste my time on the Kafirs of "Pashtun" (so-called) forum and merely amuse myself with the nonsense they write.

For those who really want to influence things here is my suggestion, go to a jirga of these tribes:

- Yusufzais.
- Kakars.
- Kasis.
- Shinwaris.
- Orakzais.
- Khattaks.
- Mohmands.
- Ghilzais

Just so that everyone knows I myself am not a "Taliban" supporter as the following threads will evidence:

http://www.khyberwatch.com/forums/sh...-flood-victims.

http://www.khyberwatch.com/forums/sh...7333#post87333

**BehavedMaseed** · 08-22-2010, 10:48 AM

Above me is a clear example of what I mean by Non Pashtuns working against us. Bengal Tiger has his own interests in hand. He wants Pashtuns through Islam to accept his Bengali identity which is no different in my eyes than Indian or Punjabi etc.

The bengali then goes onto divide Pashtuns by tribes and advises us to go to some jirgas. Bengali Tiger Your whole country was made through Nationalism even the Ulema Mullahs opposed the Bengalis Uprising as Unislamic.

You have some special motive to make Pashtuns follow this Tablighi Jihad Fisabillah non sense. Look at your comments, Kaffir this and go visit this and Islam that and Jihad this.

ANP is a SECULAR PARTY ANP has no Islamic Agenda and neither will Pashtuns join hands with Bengalis. Bengalis,Indians, Punjabis are all the same Indic things with their own agenda upon Pashtuns.

**Azmal** · 08-22-2010, 12:33 PM

In my book at only Kafir are the rascal Taliban, their supporter and all those that kill people to do Arabs and Pakistani bidding. This is why consider pakistan a Kafir country...take a look at the cancer...a place where Tablighi Jamhat, Jamyat Isami and rest have their HQ near oldest brothel in region...HariBazaar but come to Pashtons land to preach Islam.

**amna.** · 08-22-2010, 12:45 PM

Zmal they can preach anything they want to us because we Pashtuns are naive.

**BehavedMaseed** · 08-22-2010, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Azmal View Post

In my book at only Kafir are the rascal Taliban, their supporter and all those that kill people to do Arabs and Pakistani bidding. This is why consider pakistan a Kafir country...take a look at the cancer...a place where Tablighi Jamhat, Jamyat Isami and rest have their HQ near oldest brothel in region...HariBazaar but come to Pashtons land to preach Islam.

You should ask yourself Vroara

Why didnt the Afghan Taliban establish Shariat in Pakhtunkhwa(former NWFP) when they were at their strongest? Why were they so desparate to take over Kabul?

Kind Regards

**akbarkhan** · 08-22-2010, 04:23 PM