Ethnic groups in Herat Province

[Ironhide]

My main issue with much of your posts regarding demographics and why they seem heavily "Massaged" and like they're "Texax Sharp Shooting" is because the types of demographic shifts they describe seem heavily unlikely when you factor in birth/death rate, infant mortality, life expectancy, population growth rate and so on. It'd be hard to have moved millions of people from vastly distant regions in the pre-modern era. So while I'm sure there are cases of under-representation; it's an exception not the norm.

Bear in mind, I am not Anti-Pashtun, I'm Pashtun myself. When people here talk about Pashtuns being closer to a Tajik in Afghanistan, they're not saying because we don't share a common heritage. It's talking about the Social Engineering that's been targeted in Peshawar and such places to "Desify' the region, You cannot deny this is very evident in Pashtun media from that region and other things.



I know the response to this will be that "Pashtuns of Afghanistan are Persianized" .....to a certain extent that's right but bear in mind, EVEN Back in Medieval history, Pashtuns had used Persian as regional lingua franca and even Rahman Baba and other Pashtun thinkers often wrote in Persian. Point being that by and large in Afghanistan, Pashtuns and other Afghan nationals have larged retained the cultural niches of historical Afghans, whether it is clothing, food, lifestyle or music where as its shifted considerably ...by deliberate orchestration in Pakistan by the Pakistani establishment, which isn't Pashtun ....and you know this.

If Pashtuns in Pakistan prefer that, that is of course their choice. I don't see any reason Pashtuns from everywhere can't have good relations, but it is of greate concern that Pakistani Military and Political Nexus have a strategic interest in pitting ethnic groups in Afghanistan against each other, So this "demography" stuff often comes off as flavored with that intent. Where as concerns about the Indification of Pashtuns in Pakistan is stuff that Pakistani Pashtuns have voiced and is not incited by Afghan Pashtuns, though we do observe it.

Hmm .. i agree with most of what you said.. but see pashtuns in afghanistan are exposed to persian curlture because of their geographic location etc.. similarly pashtuns in pakistan, even before creation of pakistan, have been exposed to indian culture becuase of our geomatric location.. And this is how any culture evolve (Anthropology 101) but not only we have taken up things from other culture we have imparted things to other cultures as well.. arabic in farsi, Shalwar Kameez to punjabies, jirgas in punjab and so on and so forth.. so to us it seems like persianization on the western side and "desification" on the eastern side...

See here in pakistan pashtun culture and people particularly labor class and businessmen have permeated every nook and cranny of the country... i have been to towns in the middle of nowhere in sindh, punjab, southern baluchistan and Gilgit and found pashtun businessman their. There is general understanding among pashtuns in Pakistan that if someone cannt speak pashto they are not real pashtun. There are so many genetically pashtun people in pakistan (and india) that we pashtuns have written off, such as so many hindko pathan, punjabi pathans, muhajir pathan etc etc..

In pakistan punjabies dont value their language at all and because of that other ethnic groups suffer, children of many of my punjabi friends dont even speak urdu now, only english?!!.. all i want is that pashto should be made official language and language of education, becuase language is the primary source of transmission of culture..

In case of afghanistan, i feel pashtuns have been undermined since the fall of Taliban. i have read things (poetry of matiullah turab, just an example) depicting clear discrimination against pashtuns particularly in Herat, Ghazni, Kunduz, Balkh provinces.

[Ironhide]

Most people who respond to you live in the West and are most likely mixed with non-Pashtun blood hence their opinions. Don't mind it. Afghan Pashtuns side with you.

Well, i thank you for the support and i understand your point of view in terms of people responding to comments are west based therefore, do not undertsand the situation on ground. but understand that if everyone gets entangled in ethnic wars there can be no development something afghanistan has experienced alot.. If there is peace every ethnic group prospers and really a common man or women doesnt care what ethnic group he is from, he just wants to give his family food, shelter education etc..My worry is that pashtuns are being discriminated against, and the first step for achieving that objective is to show that the are a small insignificant minority, subsequent to which resources are deviated to other areas. Pashtuns suffered during russian war the most and are suffering in the current war. I hate the pashtun image of a warrior race, i would rather have them business and education oriented jewish like people... Pashtuns should be well versed in there religion so that they dont get manipulated in the name of religion. Pashtuns see under representation in political landscape of Afghanistan...

Now coming to your marraige comments.. i dont know about that.. everyone can marry whereever they want .. culture is what you teach your kids... we have blond with blue eyes in our village and we also have punjabi looking dark skined as we get closer to punjab border.. but all are pashtuns... we have chinesse looking in the swat and buner districts and persian looking in the northern baluchistan... also becareful with the thoughts of pure race... it carries within itself thoughts that justifies genocides.. which is unislamic and inhuman.

[Firdousi]

ok.. but how about UN food program.. these people do visit these place... unless these numbers are not acceptable to your agenda..TIGER KHAN: Afghanistan Settlement Maps

Now understand these are not my numbers... ??!!and they have mentioned villages.. Plus its Pakistanies... not Pakies... Beware that i know level of development education and culture in Afghanistan, Central asia, Iran and india.

Dude, once again.., WHAT DO YOU CARE? What difference does it make if Pashtuns make up 49% or 51%? Why this obsession? I have never heard of any Tajik here in Afghanistan who gives a cr*p about Waziristan or Quetta being 100% or 26% Pashtun. Just nobody cares. Life is about quality, not quantity. jews are a small minority and they are by far the most successful nation on earth way more than all Muslim nations combined. Try to understand. Numbers dont really matter in the industrial and post-industrial ages.

By trying to put a Pashtun label on everything that its obviously non Pashtun and trying to steal other peoples heritage, you are showing that Pashtunism is weak as hell. You are wasting your time, spreading lies and disinformation about places you have never seen. Its pathetic.

If you are Muslim then repent and give up on ethnic nationalism. Its a dead end. It will destroy you. It destroyed my peace of mind. I would greatly appreciate if you stop stirring ethnic hatred between Afghans. You are a foreigner so stay out.

Thank you.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Well, i thank you for the support and i understand your point of view in terms of people responding to comments are west based therefore, do not undertsand the situation on ground. but understand that if everyone gets entangled in ethnic wars there can be no development something afghanistan has experienced alot.. If there is peace every ethnic group prospers and really a common man or women doesnt care what ethnic group he is from, he just wants to give his family food, shelter education etc..My worry is that pashtuns are being discriminated against, and the first step for achieving that objective is to show that the are a small insignificant minority, subsequent to which resources are deviated to other areas. Pashtuns suffered during russian war the most and are suffering in the current war. I hate the pashtun image of a warrior race, i would rather have them business and education oriented jewish like people... Pashtuns should be well versed in there religion so that they dont get manipulated in the name of religion. Pashtuns see under representation in political landscape of Afghanistan...

Now coming to your marraige comments.. i dont know about that.. everyone can marry whereever they want .. culture is what you teach your kids... we have blond with blue eyes in our village and we also have punjabi looking dark skined as we get closer to punjab border.. but all are pashtuns... we have chinesse looking in the swat and buner districts and persian looking in the northern baluchistan... also becareful with the thoughts of pure race... it carries within itself thoughts that justifies genocides.. which is unislamic and inhuman.

Gina1 is a Troll account; no way that a person joins the forum to comment on such a specific topic.

[Azmal]

Flat head, wtf is Persianized? The reason Pashtun in cities dropped third tribal name is bc late Doud khan presidential order for all people to drop tribal, city or village associated lastnames.

Aimaqs are not nomads. They are settled people. And they most likely make up the bulk of rural Herat province along with Pashtuns and "Tajiks" to a lesser degree.

Pashtuns were already in Herat long before Abdul Rahman Khan. But most of them lived in Herat. Ahmad Shah Abdali was Herati after all. But most of modern Herati Pashtuns came to our city in the last century.

I dont consider Herati Pashtuns as real Pashtuns. Nor I consider Herati Tajiks as real Tajiks. Ethnic affiliation does not exist in Western Afghanistan. Heratis are proud of their city, heritage, religion, culture and language not their ethnicity.

Most of Herati Pashtuns are even more proud than Tajiks to be Persianspeakers and Heratis. There is nothing Pashtun in their behavior. Most of Herati Pashtuns are so heavily "Persianized" (or "Heratized") that wont be able to spot any difference between "them" and "us". I know Herati Pashtuns who have Persianized their surnames. One relative of mine is a Popalzai. He removed the "zai" from his surname and now its just "Agaye Popal". I know another one from Ghoryan. His real surname is Jamalzai but his grand father changed it into Rahimi.

IMO and experience, Pashtuns make up around 30% of Herats rural population. Most of urban Heratis are Tajiks but there are some important Pashtun families in there too such as the Safi or the Sheikhs families. Since no real census has ever been conducted their numbers might be even higher. But WHO CARES? Heratis never had any ethnic hatred. We are a good role model for the rest of Afghanistan. We love each other. Stop stirring up ethnic hatred between Tajiks and Pashtun Heratis. We dont need it.

Dera manana.

[Samandri]

The truth is that an Afghan Tajik is culturally politically closer to an Afghan Pashtun than Pashtun Afghan and Pashtun Paki, barring the rural tribes. I don’t know if it’s just me but a proud Paki Pashtun waving a Paki flag makes me want to puke.

An Afghanistani Pashtun waving Afghanistan flag or wearing shirts of flag colours or face-painting of flag, is also sensed as cringe-worthy and weird phenomena by me. In fact the sight of Afghanistani flag waving is more cringy and embarrassing because Afghanistan is winner of the most frequent flag changes in the twentieth century. Historical Flags (Afghanistan)

[Samandri]

Some books are stating that Abdalis moved to Herat during the reign of Shah Abbas I (r.1571-1631) but its actually incorrect. Abdalis moved to Herat towards the end of 17th century and gained control of it in early 18th century. Majority of them returned back to Kandahar when Hotaks were defeated by Nadir Shah.

[Azmal]

An Afghanistani Pashtun waving Afghanistan flag or wearing shirts of flag colours or face-painting of flag, is also sensed as cringe-worthy and weird phenomena by me. In fact the sight of Afghanistani flag waving is more cringy and embarrassing because Afghanistan is winner of the most frequent flag changes in the twentieth century. Historical Flags (Afghanistan)

Pakistan was created for Muslim of Hindustan cultural background what did Pashtun had to do with it? Absolutely nothing! By calling yourself Hindustani muslim ans claiming pork eating alchol drinking Gujrati Ali Ponja as your baba you longer claim or talk about Abdali or any other Pashtuns. You are no longer one of us. Buzz of child of Ali Ponja!

[Azmal]

Some books are stating that Abdalis moved to Herat during the reign of Shah Abbas I (r.1571-1631) but its actually incorrect. Abdalis moved to Herat towards the end of 17th century and gained control of it in early 18th century. Majority of them returned back to Kandahar when Hotaks were defeated by Nadir Shah.

✋ ✋ ✋ we don’t want child of Gujrati ali Ponja taking our founding father names. First need to wash your paki mouth then talk about Abdali

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

✋ ✋ ✋ we don’t want child of Gujrati ali Ponja taking our founding father names. First need to wash your paki mouth then talk about Abdali

Our Founding father is Qais Abdur Rashid, not servant of Turkoman Afsharid invaders

[Samandri]

Our Founding father is Qais Abdur Rashid, not servant of Turkoman Afsharid invaders

Come to think of it, there would have been no Afghanistan/kingdom-of-Kabul without Nadir Shah Afshar of Iran. Ahmad Shah Abdali considered himself successor of Nadir Shah. So founding father of Azmal is Nadir Shah Afshar.

[Samandri]

✋ ✋ ✋ we don’t want child of Gujrati ali Ponja taking our founding father names. First need to wash your paki mouth then talk about Abdali

You have degraded into Gollum.

[maneatinglizard]

You have degraded into Gollum.

I'm like 80% sure he's a troll. He even calls anti-Pakistan Afghan Pashtuns sons of "Ali ponja" and children of Hera Mandi, if they don't agree with him completely.

Another user brought up suspicions of him actually being a non-Pashtun troll trying to create problems for us, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was true.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

[MENTION=19985]maneatinglizard[/MENTION]
[MENTION=18842]Samandri[/MENTION]

Azmal is someone I've known for years. I mean like over a decade....he used to have the ID Pakhpaloo on Afghansite Forums which is now defunct.

He's not a troll (or maybe he is?) he's just someone who is trying REALLY hard to convince everyone he's a "Hardcore" Pashtun, he's been doing that since I've known him. Sort of like a closeted gay person trying REALLY hard to act heterosexual, but like all "try-hards" he comes off the opposite and thus awkwardly unconvincing.

He makes references to things that are readily accessible for people that primarily try to learn about thinhgs online, but not really common knowledge to the average person. Like the whole "Allamah Habibi" thing, your average day to day Afghan would have no clue.

It's like asking your average American "Do you know John Von Neurmann"", he specifically name "drops" styff like this to feign credibility because Allamah Abdul Hai Habibi is known in academic realm regarding Pashto linguistics and origins, so anyone wanting to learn about Pashto will inevitably encounter his name. Especially if they buy books from Amazon.

He once told our forum he was going to buy $500 worth of Pashto instruction books to feel more "Afghan".

He's probably an Afghan national and maybe even a heavily de-tribalized Pashtun, but he's pretty much a Try-Hard wannabe Pashtun Nationalist so he mimics or hits on talking points he thinks buys him social credibility because he saw others doing it online.

[Samandri]

I'm like 80% sure he's a troll. He even calls anti-Pakistan Afghan Pashtuns sons of "Ali ponja" and children of Hera Mandi, if they don't agree with him completely.

Another user brought up suspicions of him actually being a non-Pashtun troll trying to create problems for us, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was true.

I agree with Iblis_Efreetzai, i dont think he is a troll.