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'Abdul Does Not Celebrate Norouz': Anti-Norouz Campaign Prompts Backlash In Afghanist

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Firdousi View Post
    What about Pashtunwali? It predates Islam. It is also a pagan code?
    First of all that is not the answer to my claim.
    You can't rebuttle with diverting attention to pashtunwali.
    But we can discuss pashtunwali and my take on it in another thread.
    ............................

    What is nowroz


    Although having*Iranian*and religious*Zoroastrian*origins, Nowruz has been celebrated by people from diverse ethno-linguistic communities. It has been celebrated for over 3,000 years in*Western Asia,*Central Asia, the*Caucasus, the*Black Sea Basin, *It is a*secular*holiday for most celebrants that is enjoyed by people of several different faiths, but remains a holy day for Zoroastrians.[43]

    Nowruz is the day of the*vernal equinox, and marks the beginning of spring in the*Northern Hemisphere. It marks the first day of the first month (Farvardin) in the*Iranian calendar.[44]*It usually occurs on*March 21*or the previous or following day, depending on where it is observed. The moment the*sun*crosses the*celestial equator*and equalizes night and day is calculated exactly every year, and families gather together to observe the rituals.


    Ok let's see what Omar khayyam wrote about nowroz.
    In the book*Nowruznama*("Book of the New Year", which is attributed to*Omar Khayyam,a well known*Persian poet*and*mathematician), a vivid description of the celebration in the courts of the kings of Iran is provided:*"From the era of*Kai Khosrow*till the days of*Yazdegard, last of the pre-Islamic kings of Iran, the royal custom was thus: on the first day of the New Year,*Now Ruz, the king's first visitor was the High*Mobad*of the*Zoroastrians, who brought with him as gifts a golden goblet full of wine, a ring, some gold coins, a fistful of green sprigs of wheat, a sword, and a bow.

    In the language of Iran, he would then glorify God and praise the monarch.

    This was the address of the High Mobad to the king: "O*Majesty, on this feast of the*equinox, first day of the first month of the year, seeing that thou hast freely chosen God and the faith of the ancient ones; may*Sraosha, the angel-messenger, grant thee wisdom and insight and sagacity in thy affairs. Live long in praise, be happy and fortunate upon thy golden throne, drink immortality from the*Cup of*Jamshid; and keep in solemn trust the customs of our ancestors, their noble aspirations, fair gestures and the exercise of justice and righteousness. May thy soul flourish; may thy youth be as the new-grown grain; may thy horse be puissant, victorious; thy sword bright and deadly against foes; thy hawk swift against its prey; thy every act straight as the arrow's shaft. Go forth from thy rich throne, conquer new lands. Honor the craftsman and the sage in equal degree; disdain the acquisition of wealth. May thy house prosper and thy life be long!"

    It is obvious that nowroz is a pagan Zoroastrian religious holiday which is celebrated on the first day of the Iranian calender to celebrate the first day "universe being put in motion".

    Kings would come from different colonised nation to pay homage to Persian king on this day so that explains why this pagan Persian feast was pushed on other nations.


    Let's see what other experts and historians say

    Mary Boyce*and Frantz Grenet explain the traditions for seasonal festivals and comment: "It is possible that the splendor of the*Babylonian*festivities at this season led the Iranians to develop their own spring festival into an established New Year feast, with the name*Navasarda*"New Year" (a name which, though first attested through Middle Persian derivatives, is attributed to the Achaemenian period)." Since the communal observations of the ancient Iranians appear in general to have been a seasonal ones, and related to agriculture, "it is probable that they traditionally held festivals in both autumn and spring, to mark the major turning points of the natural year."[52]

    Nowruz is partly rooted in the tradition of*Iranian religions, such as*Mitraism*and*Zoroastrianism. In Mitraism, festivals had a deep linkage with the sun's light. The Iranian festivals such as*Mehrgan*(autumnal equinox),*Tirgan, and the eve of*Chelle ye Zemestan*(winter solstice) also had an origin in the Sun god (Surya). Among other ideas, Zoroastrianism is the first*monotheistic*religion that emphasizes broad concepts such as the corresponding work of good and evil in the world, and the connection of humans to nature. Zoroastrian practices were dominant for much of the history of ancient Iran. In Zoroastrianism, the seven most important Zoroastrian festivals are the six*Gahambar*festivals and Nowruz, which occurs at the*spring equinox. According to*Mary Boyce,[53]"It seems a reasonable surmise that Nowruz, the holiest of them all, with deep doctrinal significance, was founded by*Zoroaster*himself"; although there is no clear date of origin.[54]*Between sunset on the day of the sixth Gahambar and sunrise of Nowruz,*Hamaspathmaedaya*(later known, in its extended form, as*Frawardinegan; and today known as*Farvardigan) was celebrated. This and the Gahambars are the only festivals named in the surviving text of the*Avesta.

    The 10th-century scholar*Biruni, in his work*Kitab al-Tafhim li Awa'il Sina'at al-Tanjim, provides a description of the calendars of various nations. Besides the Iranian calendar, various festivals of Greeks, Jews, Arabs, Sabians, and other nations are mentioned in the book. In the section on the Iranian calendar, he mentions Nowruz,*Sadeh, Tirgan, Mehrgan, the six Gahambars, Farvardigan, Bahmanja,*Esfand Armaz*and several other festivals. According to him, "It is the belief of the Iranians that Nowruz marks the first day when the universe started its motion."[55]*The Persian historian*Gardizi, in his work titled*Zayn al-Akhbār, under the section of the Zoroastrians festivals, mentions Nowruz (among other festivals) and specifically points out that*Zoroaster*highly emphasized the celebration of Nowruz and Mehrgan.[56][57]
    Last edited by Akbar; 03-19-2018, 03:37 PM.

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    • #77
      this is retarded. No muslim in central asia associats noroz with a religious festival. no one.

      Killing off Noroz would make the region culturally poorer. less special days for people to gather and socialize.

      this logic is flawed that anything pre-Islamic must be destroyed. it reminds of those idiots who want to destroy pre-Islamic heritage of Islamic countries. like blowing up the Buddhas in Afg. or even the Pyramids (which were religious temples of ancient Egyptians)

      Islam is only 1400 years old. It's a fact the world has existed for longer than that. Even Pashtunwali is 3000 years old. Removing any shreds of evidence of a pre-Islamic past is not gonna change this reality.

      There was a time in fact, when even Muhammad himself was not a Muslim. If my memory is right, he received his pophecy well into his 30s. the guy wasn't even born a muslim. what I mean with this is even the Prophet himself had a pre-Islamic past. this is the reality.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by UnknownUser View Post
        this is retarded. No muslim in central asia associats noroz with a religious festival. no one.

        Killing off Noroz would make the region culturally poorer. less special days for people to gather and socialize.

        this logic is flawed that anything pre-Islamic must be destroyed. it reminds of those idiots who want to destroy pre-Islamic heritage of Islamic countries. like blowing up the Buddhas in Afg. or even the Pyramids (which were religious temples of ancient Egyptians)

        Islam is only 1400 years old. It's a fact the world has existed for longer than that. Even Pashtunwali is 3000 years old. Removing any shreds of evidence of a pre-Islamic past is not gonna change this reality.

        There was a time in fact, when even Muhammad himself was not a Muslim. If my memory is right, he received his pophecy well into his 30s. the guy wasn't even born a muslim. what I mean with this is even the Prophet himself had a pre-Islamic past. this is the reality.
        Everything you wrote is your personal opinion and has nothing to do with facts or the population of Afghanistan .

        Comment


        • #79
          I don't celebrate it. Neither does any of my family as far as I'm aware.

          Edit: I asked my dad and it turns out my family did celebrate Nowruz in Kabul/Zazi.

          I don't want to spend too much time debating the Islamic aspect of it (the arguments here are overly simplistic - it's not simply a matter of whether or not it's okay to practice customs that are not explicitly sanctioned in Islam), but regarding Zoroastrianism, I just came across an interesting Hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud:

          حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ سِنَانٍ الْوَاسِطِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ بِلاَلٍ، عَنْ عِمْرَانَ الْقَطَّانِ، عَنْ أَبِي جَمْرَةَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، قَالَ إِنَّ أَهْلَ فَارِسَ لَمَّا مَاتَ نَبِيُّهُمْ كَتَبَ لَهُمْ إِبْلِيسُ الْمَجُوسِيَّةَ ‏.‏

          Ibn ‘Abbas said “When the Prophet of the Persians dies, Iblis (satan) led them to Mazdaism.”

          Hadith - Book of Tribute, Spoils, and Rulership (Kitab Al-Kharaj, Wal-Fai' Wal-Imarah) - Sunan Abi Dawud - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
          Note: that translation is bad, and I'm just leaving it in as that's the only translation I could find. A more accurate translation would be "When the Prophet of the people of Persia passed away, Iblis prescribed for them al-Majusiyyah (i.e. the religion of the Majus)."

          This is very interesting, as it is the only Hadith I've come across that explicitly affirms specifically a prophet of a people that is not mentioned in the Quran. While we know from both Quran and Hadith that Allah (subhana wa taala) sent prophets to all nations, most of them are never explicitly mentioned in any Islamic text, or any historical document in general.

          And while this Hadith doesn't mention name of the Prophet of the Persians, and I don't want to assume anything, it's hard to imagine anyone else other than Zoroaster being known as the "Prophet of the people of Persia." Other (likely false) prophets did arise in Persia, but none of them have ever been associated with Persians as strongly as Zoroaster.
          Last edited by maneatinglizard; 03-20-2018, 12:19 AM.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by UnknownUser View Post
            this is retarded. No muslim in central asia associats noroz with a religious festival. no one.

            Killing off Noroz would make the region culturally poorer. less special days for people to gather and socialize.

            this logic is flawed that anything pre-Islamic must be destroyed. it reminds of those idiots who want to destroy pre-Islamic heritage of Islamic countries. like blowing up the Buddhas in Afg. or even the Pyramids (which were religious temples of ancient Egyptians)

            Islam is only 1400 years old. It's a fact the world has existed for longer than that. Even Pashtunwali is 3000 years old. Removing any shreds of evidence of a pre-Islamic past is not gonna change this reality.

            There was a time in fact, when even Muhammad himself was not a Muslim. If my memory is right, he received his pophecy well into his 30s. the guy wasn't even born a muslim. what I mean with this is even the Prophet himself had a pre-Islamic past. this is the reality.
            No need to bring our Prophet into this to justify whatever...Kindly keep yourself out of religion discussion if you can't address with respect ....

            Comment


            • #81
              How similar are the celebrations of Zoroastrians and Muslims (Afghans and Iranians) on Nowruz? Are they the same or are they different? What belief do Muslims have when celebrating Nowruz? Is it just khushalee (this is what it was for my family), or are there religious/superstitious beliefs regarding the celebration?

              I think these are the most pertinent questions regarding whether or not celebrating it might be permissible.

              I did some reading on it, and the debate on its permissibility is pretty interesting. There are some explicit evidences against it, but I believe all of them are of dubious reliability. There are also evidences for its permissibility, but they too seem to have some questions surrounding them. Some of the greatest Ulema rejected it, including Imam al-Ghazali (funny note: I found some Iranian hating on him for it, calling him a “savage Arab” even though he was Persian), and yet it seemed to have been a widespread and continuous practice throughout all of Islamic history. I’ve also seen claims that some Ulema permitted it, but haven’t found any names yet.

              There are non-naqli arguments against it, but I don’t think they're very strong.

              I want to discuss the issue with some scholars, though I think I already know what their answers will be.

              I’m no scholar, and I follow scholars, so I wouldn’t celebrate it because i feel it's the safer route with the info I have right now, but I also don’t think I would criticize someone who does celebrate it, as long as they don’t also commit clear haram acts with it. My suspicion is that [MENTION=1547]khushal[/MENTION] is right and the scholars campaigning against it are doing so more because of the excesses that are being committed with it rather than the celebration itself.

              On the other hand, I don’t think there’s much of a debate regarding holidays like Christmas or Holi. Nowruz is a unique case because it’s celebrated mostly by Muslims, and seems to have lost any religious significance it may have had, those other holidays are still clearly associated with other religions and should be avoided.

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              • #82
                By the way, do Pashtuns in Pakistan celebrate Nowruz/Naway Kal?
                [MENTION=18842]Samandri[/MENTION] [MENTION=19846]Traveller[/MENTION]

                Comment


                • #83
                  @ UnknownUser

                  You told that Pashtunwali is 3000 years old. What are the bases for this agecalculation. Is it orally transmitted, are there any other things that indicate that age or how is it calculated?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Qami View Post
                    @ UnknownUser

                    You told that Pashtunwali is 3000 years old. What are the bases for this agecalculation. Is it orally transmitted, are there any other things that indicate that age or how is it calculated?
                    It’s probably made up like the claim that Pashtuns have existed for 5000 years.

                    Pashtunwali is so integrated into Islam that, if a pre-Islamic form ever existed, it was probably radically different from what we know of today.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      For me is just interesting how they calculate. Calculating Pashtuns age is based on mentionings of the Pashtuns in the one or other form, but interesting how Pashtunwali is mentioned?Is there any local oral tradition to give such claims? Any local epic or so?
                      I am sure it is ancient and related codes existed or exist everywhere, just maybe in Pashtun society they are still less touched by globalization. We or even more northern caucasians had their own codes like Pashtunwali,
                      The system of Roma people (although you may dislike that comparison) had some parallels .
                      Surely things that were completely unacceptable by Islam changed with time, if they existed. It is a hard theme to discuss, as oral culture isn't that much credited as written, so often there are big discussions....

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Akbar View Post
                        I'm not against what they do in your village which most likely has nothing to do with this phenomenon called nowroz.
                        I dont really know about the religious aspect of Nowroz but it was allowed to be celebrated during Muslim civilizations in the middle east and south asia while the other zorastrian celebration were banned.

                        Any ways, in our village, they would call it nawe kal or nowroz. It was celebrated on the same day.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by khushal View Post
                          I dont really know about the religious aspect of Nowroz but it was allowed to be celebrated during Muslim civilizations in the middle east and south asia while the other zorastrian celebration were banned.

                          Any ways, in our village, they would call it nawe kal or nowroz. It was celebrated on the same day.
                          In my village it was called Nowruz and celebrated on the same day as far as I know. It was similar to what you mentioned (praying, wearing nice clothes, eating good food), but those who could afford it did do the wowa mewey thing. No fire jumping (that was done on the Eids).

                          Also, I don’t think Nowruz was ever celebrated among South Asian Muslims. Parsis may have celebrated it under Islamic rule, but non-Muslims were not generally prohibited from practicing their celebrations anyway.
                          Last edited by maneatinglizard; 03-20-2018, 05:04 AM.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by maneatinglizard View Post
                            By the way, do Pashtuns in Pakistan celebrate Nowruz/Naway Kal?
                            [MENTION=18842]Samandri[/MENTION] [MENTION=19846]Traveller[/MENTION]
                            I do know Turis celebrate it and I never saw people except for Afghans celebrating it in Peshawar. I believe Kashmiris celebrate it, I am not 100% sure but as Qami has already stated, everyone celebrates it differently.
                            Last edited by khushal; 03-20-2018, 05:09 AM.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by khushal View Post
                              I do know Turis celebrate it and I never saw people except for Afghans celebrating it in Peshawar. I believe Kashmiris celebrate it, I am not 100% sure but as Qami has already stated, everyone celebrates it differently.
                              Would the Kashmiris celebrating it be the Shi’a ones? Seems Nowruz is popular among Shi’as.

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                              • #90
                                Considering that Tatars and Bashkira in Russia, Kazakhs, Kyrghyz, Uzbeks, Uyghurs are mostely entirely Sunni and celebate Nowruz, it isn't specifially a Shiacelebration, specially tha Tatars andBashkirs and Nogays were neither part of Iran nor Zarushti (xcept maybe very few)

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