'Abdul Does Not Celebrate Norouz': Anti-Norouz Campaign Prompts Backlash In Afghanist

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

I don't think you understood what I ment.
The guy claimed there were prophets all around the world.
My answer was we are to follow prophet Muhammad pbuh not those prophets.

Sure, but the point others are making is that other Prophets doing something would suggest it's not "Pagan". as you keep suggesting.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

And I can enjoy nature eat fruit the whole year around.
Well to some people what you deem immoral is normal wholesome activity.

Yeah, and the reason they do it on this day is because Spring is a special period in the transition of seasons, which doesn't happen all year round. Human fitra knows what is immortal and what is wholesome, you don't need to revert to subjective perceptions.

[Akbar]

But your argument is that it's a Pagan practice because Pagans used to do it. So Tawaaf is something Pagans used to do. So it was one of their practices. The point being, just because a certain type of people did something, doesn't automatically mean that's what it has to be about. There's got to be more than simply "Pagans did it at one time". It also has no consequence to Nawruz.


You don't need to defend Shi'a, but they're not Pagans...really radical preachers like to drum up these exaggerated portrayals of Shi'a, probably because they're on Saudi payroll somehow.

I clearly said they were doing those practices because Ibrahim AS made the Kaaba. The same goes for pagan Arabs saying that they worship Allah while using the idols as mediums.

So those were the practices of Muslims not the Pagans.
It actually proves my point. The pagans did tawaf which was part of the deen of Islam as practiced by Ibrahim AS .
So nowroz and it's practices also have roots in a religion in this case pagan fire worshippers religion.

As far as I'm concerned shias can practice what they want since they are deviants in the first place. I don't want to discuss them.

[Akbar]

Sure, but the point others are making is that other Prophets doing something would suggest it's not "Pagan". as you keep suggesting.

Prophets according to him not Islam.

[Akbar]

Yeah, and the reason they do it on this day is because Spring is a special period in the transition of seasons, which doesn't happen all year round. Human fitra knows what is immortal and what is wholesome, you don't need to revert to subjective perceptions.

And you know people go against human fitra and deem it totally OK.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

I clearly said they were doing those practices because Ibrahim AS made the Kaaba. The same goes for pagan Arabs saying that they worship Allah while using the idols as mediums.

So those were the practices of Muslims not the Pagans.
It actually proves my point. The pagans did tawaf which was part of the deen of Islam as practiced by Ibrahim AS .
So nowroz and it's practices also have roots in a religion in this case pagan fire worshippers religion.

As far as I'm concerned shias can practice what they want since they are deviants in the first place. I don't want to discuss them.

I realize what you said, but what you're not processing is that they were doing it for Pagan reasons. So it wasn't the simple act of doing it that made it "Pagan" but their motivations.

This is why your claim that it's a "Pagan practice" doesn't really hold. It's not a Pagan practice now. Just like Tawaaf was once a a Pagan practice, it's not now.

Sunnis can also practice what they want if it's not overtly in contradiction with the values and principles of Islam. There's nothing you've presented that suggests it is. Saying "Pagans once did it" fails for the reasons I've already illustrated.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Prophets according to him not Islam.

Islamic texts only names some Prophets(saw) explicitly; it would be sensible that if there were messengers calling people to their creator that they were sent by Allah(swt). ....God Knows best. But I wouldn't discredit the cliam so easily.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

And you know people go against human fitra and deem it totally OK.

And there's nothing in Nawruz that conflicts with our fitra so ...your contention is not really relevant.

Let's not use obviously immoral things for counter examples.

[khushal]

Brother
Khushalee can also be fornicating, consuming alcohol and going to strip clubs. So the argument that anything makes you happy is OK is not a legit argument.

Assalamualaikum Akbar wrora. Nice to have you back in the forum.

Not really. Fornicating, alcohol, going to strip clubs are actually forms of intoxicants that lead you to depression not happiness which is why Islam has advised all people to avoid. Islam is deep and is looking out for your interests short term and long term. Its just that people don't understand this.

We dont celebrate Nowroz(nawe kal) here in America but in our village, all people do is go to the mosque to eat together and pray for a good planting season. There is nothing wrong with that. But if people practice it in a way that is harmful, then that WAY should be avoided but the coming of Spring should be embraced, it is a gift from Allah and we should be happy and thankful for such a beautiful gift.

[Akbar]

Not really. Fornicating, alcohol, going to strip clubs are actually forms of intoxicants that lead you to depression not happiness which is why Islam has advised all people to avoid. Islam is deep and is looking out for your interests short term and long term. Its just that people don't understand this.

We dont celebrate Nowroz(nawe kal) here in America but in our village, all people do is go to the mosque to eat together and pray for a good planting season. There is nothing wrong with that. But if people practice it in a way that is harmful, then that WAY should be avoided but the coming of Spring should be embraced, it is a gift from Allah and we should be happy and thankful for such a beautiful gift.

You didn't get the point.
I don't mean from Islamic point of view. I'm talking about people in general who would find drinking alcohol etc as total normal and will give their reasons for it.
From Islamic point of view saying merry Christmas is not OK yet it would seem OK for some people because there is no harm in it and it's about winter solstice. The Islamic reason of avoiding saying Christmas is because that would be agreeing with Jesus being son of God and the rest of Christianity.
The same goes for nowroz which has religious connotations yet it can be seen as celebrating the coming of Spring season. Than why shouldn't we celebrate Christmas as well?

I'm not against what they do in your village which most likely has nothing to do with this phenomenon called nowroz.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

You didn't get the point.
I don't mean from Islamic point of view. I'm talking about people in general who would find drinking alcohol etc as total normal and will give their reasons for it.
From Islamic point of view saying merry Christmas is not OK yet it would seem OK for some people because there is no harm in it and it's about winter solstice. The Islamic reason of avoiding saying Christmas is because that would be agreeing with Jesus being son of God and the rest of Christianity.
The same goes for nowroz which has religious connotations yet it can be seen as celebrating the coming of Spring season. Than why shouldn't we celebrate Christmas as well?

I'm not against what they do in your village which most likely has nothing to do with this phenomenon called nowroz.

You're making a great degree of unsubstantiated leaps.


Someone saying Merry Christmas doesn't automatically suggest they believe in Christianity, Atheists say Merry Christmas all the time, they don't suddenly believe in God. Likewise a Muslim wouldn't automatically believe in Jesus being God because of it. However, there is no ill in wishing glad tidings on people's holidays. That's just good social graces and that is Islamically valid.

In Modern Times, Christmas is mainly a Social Hpliday. What do you say to converts to Islam from Christianity that were raised with Christmas as apart of their heritage? that they can't go visit their parents to spend time with them during Christmas? I mean it's not like they're just doing it for the heck of it, they're doing it to celebrate Christmas. That aspect of Christmas is social and cultural and there's no beefs about it.

The part about Christmas we don't endorse is praying to Jesus and/or Mary. But everything else is not in direct conflict with Islam; especially if someone was Born into a culture where the tradition is Christmas. Even the Christmas tree was once a Pagan symbol, is now just a social convention. Though I think it's harram because it is misusing the environment, but if that wasn't an issue, there's nothing wrong with it as long as it's just viewed as a cultural symbol. I don't agree with it, but I understand that people aren't looking at it as an object of worship. Inferring it to such a degree is being over paranoid. As someone else put it "fixing something that isn't broke"

For us, our tradition and culture is Nawruz and Naway Kaal. We don't believe "da oro lambo" or "shihab-e-atash" is the embodiment of God so there's no issue with it. Naway Kaal is just our tradition and apart of our social and cultural values. We are historically nomadic peoples, so the coming of Spring was an important passage for us for the migration of our flock.

Everything should be addressed in their appropriate context

By the way Nawai Kal Khushala Sha

[Qami]

You have no idea about how the world is perceived by Islam.
Those you mentioned that celebrate it have neglected their religion of Islam.

Why are pushing this ? Are you suggesting we go against our prophet pbuh teachings and for your sake call this pagan practice in accordance with Islam?
NO
Just like we don't celebrate Christmas which has pagan roots as well why should we celebrate this?
After all Christmas is also about a natural phenomenon called winter solstice.

I think the reason you are so keen into pushing this is because you want to connect but this is all for the wrong reasons. There is nothing wrong with innocent celebration of arrival of spring but this nowroz is a pagan practice.

Sorry dear Akbar, before we get into misunderstandings and start blaming things of each other, please explain me what you think I don't understand and also please explain what is pagan about Nawruz and what you mean generally under Pagan!


I am not keen pushing anything anything, so let's stay calm and far from blames.


I personally get confused why you on the one hand say several things to me but then to Khushal say things very close to what i actually said to You. SO before i misunderstand You and You misunderstand me, could You explain better Your position and what did I say what was so problematic about it.

[Qami]

And I can enjoy nature eat fruit the whole year around.
Well to some people what you deem immoral is normal wholesome activity.

That is very valid that somebody should be in harmony with the surrounding nature every day of the year. But every day has its special duties,
The beginning of spring marks the start of the year, if you start your works with happiness, it gives you more power as pastoralist or agriculturalist.That is all I say about.

Happiness is not drinking alcohol and any immoral activity brings You to destruction, not to happiness, maybe somebody doesn't see this self destruction and thinks he is happy, but i never met any immoral person to be a happy person, drugs and such behavior are illusions to narcotize inner problems, but in reality they
increase those problems.


But if you don't do with happiness and pleasure your every days duty, you will create those inner problems. Fulfillment is important, that is what such celebrations are about.
This day is astronomically important to mark your activities in the Northern hemisphere only and only where seasonal climate exists, that is all about that day. Like every other day has special phenomena.

That is my point. What i want to undestand is , what you, or as You say Islam sees evil in that that it shouldn't be celebrated or marked.


Does You disturb the way of celebration of certain individuals or wholly the celebration of that day?
Could You explain ?

[Firdousi]

You didn't get the point.
I don't mean from Islamic point of view. I'm talking about people in general who would find drinking alcohol etc as total normal and will give their reasons for it.
From Islamic point of view saying merry Christmas is not OK yet it would seem OK for some people because there is no harm in it and it's about winter solstice. The Islamic reason of avoiding saying Christmas is because that would be agreeing with Jesus being son of God and the rest of Christianity.
The same goes for nowroz which has religious connotations yet it can be seen as celebrating the coming of Spring season. Than why shouldn't we celebrate Christmas as well?

I'm not against what they do in your village which most likely has nothing to do with this phenomenon called nowroz.

What about Pashtunwali? It predates Islam. It is also a pagan code?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

What about Pashtunwali? It predates Islam. It is also a pagan code?

ZING!!!! or ATTAN for that matter. That definitely has pre-Islamic origins.