Its Islamic unity possible?

[Firdousi]

I know we live in the age of anger. I know we are going through a transition, that many things are changing. The Liberal Order is crumbling, the Pax American is dead, American hegemony is waning fast. Capitalism, Welfare State, Democracy, Liberalism,.. are in crisis and decay. Power, wealth and influence is shifting from West to East.. and the Islamic World is deeply divided in ideological wars.

For now its pretty obvious that the Islamic unity dream is gone. Pan-Islamic movements such as ISIS or AQ have been defeated and they weren't very popular among average Muslims anyway. Others, like the Taliban or Hamas, have morphed into some sort of nationalist resistance against foreign powers. We have also witnessed how Islamic unity failed in Pakistan: Eastern Pakistan broke away from Western Pakistan. Islamic brotherhood failed to keep both entities united. And this ideology can't even keep the modern state of Pakistan together.

So my question is obvious: its Muslim unity possible? Can Islamic brotherhood bring so many different people together under one political government? Experience and modern history say no, but I believe otherwise.

I believe the main failure in all the modern attempts to bring Muslims together is that were motivated from a Western perspective. Most of the Islamic world has not developed a sense of state-nationhood. West imposed his Westphalian order on the Islamic world during Colonialism but it didn't take root. Since the end of Colonialism, Muslims have tried to unity under a Westphalian nation-state. This didn't work and will never work basically because this order is a failure. Modern nation-states are by nature discriminatory. They put a lot of stress on identity, linguistic and ethnic homogeneity. The reason Islamic unity failed in Pakistan was because Western Pakistan tried to impose Punjabi nationalism, hegemony and identity on Eastern Pakistan. WP tried to downgrade Bengali language and Begaliy idiosyncrasy for the sake of modern Westaphalian state.

We have witness this process several times all over the Islamic world: in Turkey, Kemalism tried to impose Turkish hegemony on non Turks. This led to a Kurdish uprising and to the ethnic cleansing of Greek from the country. Modern Turkish state was founded after horrible crimes were committed against minorities by Turkish nationalists (Armenians). But this has been a common patter all over the world: modern Spanish nation was founded in 1492, the same year Jews were expelled from the country. USA was founded after ethnic cleansing native Indian tribes. Same thing happened in Afghanistan (conversion of Kafiristan, massacre of Hazaras, etc), Israel, France, Italy, Germany, India/Pakistan, China, and so on.

So in my opinion, if Muslim unity wants to prevail the very first step must be to get rid of the Westphalian order and Western nation-states. Nowadays this sounds crazy and unlikely, but in general nation-states did more bad than good. The excuse for their creation was that by settling stable borders the wars would decrease and human suffering would also decrease. But this has not been the case, basically because the modern state is the main claimant of human lives in history. More people have been killed modern states in the last three centuries than the rest of the centuries combined. Modern states have a huge and crazy amount of power to mobilize resources to do evil against human beings, their properties and freedom. Modern states destroy religion, culture, family and values for the sake of individualism, oppression, ethnic and ideological homogeneity.

So only under a non Westphalian system Islamic unity can be achieved. Otherwise, its doomed to fail over and over again.

[Khostai]

lol. What a bunch of BS coming from an ethnocentric persian wanabe fascist who hates Pashtun culture and values to the core.

[Firdousi]

lol. What a bunch of BS coming from an ethnocentric persian wanabe fascist who hates Pashtun culture and values to the core.

Salaamoona.

I see no arguments there. Just ad hominem lol

But your stupid point helps to prove my point right, so thank you. In order to defeat nationalism and ethnic hatred the Islamic world should get rid of nation-states. Ethnic hatred is mainly boost by modern Westphalian states. Those Tajik fascists who want to create a new Tajik state need first to ethnic cleanse most of ethnic Pashtuns.

Of course this won't stop there. Once Pashtuns are killed or expelled, other minority groups will suffer the same fate. Because thats the way nation-states and their crazy ideology, nationalism, work: for a nation-state to work properly there must be a huge ethnic, cultural and linguistic homogeneity.

Unlike the West, that has systematically butchered his own minorities, the Islamic world still rich and full of diversity. We have countless ethnic and religious groups.

I also believe the current Western minority group rights system is a failure. Its already crumbling. It couldn't last more than few decades which is embarrassing AF. In my opinion, Ottomans managed to create a better system (Millet, that was reformed with the Tanzimat) which guaranteed not only basic rights for their minorities but also allowed them to follow their own civil laws. This system was practiced by Muslim armies during the early Islamic conquests in the ME, CA, NA and Europe.

Spain is an interesting case because most of the country willingly allowed the Islamic take over without opposing armed resistance basically because the Islamic system was much better than the Visigotic system. There was this Roman nobleman from Murcia, Theudimer, who was allowed to keep his faith, his properties, his Christian countrymen were allowed to rule themselves and the Islamic state had to protect them from all threats. Also they weren't forced to join Islamic armies and so on. In return, they had to obey the state, the Islamic law and pay the Jyzia.

I believe the Islamic minority system has been systematically targeted by Western nation-state establishments and elites but if you study it from an unbiased point of view you will see that in many cases it was much better than the modern Westphalian system. It also lasted longer lol

[Firdousi]

Of course all the things I said before doesn't mean were true or right all the time. Islamic rulers through history abused on minorities but most of those rulers who were mean on them were also mean on their own Muslim "citizens". Many fanboys of the modern Westphalian system argue that the pre-Westphalian systems were discriminatory. This is true to some degree, because those systems were not perfect. But at the same time, they fail to acknowledge that the modern-states didn't actually fix that problem but rather boost it.

Modern nation-states are by far the worst claimant of human lives in history. States were created to do evil. They are constant source of problem for citizens properties, liberty, rights and peace.

We should also consider that ethnic hatred is not a modern invention of nation-states. They did exist before. If you read the Shahnameh by Ferdowsi, you will realize that its an anti-Turkic book and pro Persian. Ethnic hatred did exist before but it was boosted and taken to another level by the nation-states.

Nothing good has ever come from nationalism. From 1800 to 1945, over 100 million human beings were killed in nationalist wars started and fought by nation-states and gave us nothing positive in return. Its one of the main reasons behind the current mess in the Islamic world. Its like cancerous tumor that its spreading cancerous cells into the body. By removing it we will be a bit closer to a brighter future.

[jama0112]

"Western Pakistan tried to impose Punjabi nationalism, hegemony and identity on Eastern Pakistan."

Don't you mean eastern pakistan tried to impose punjabi nationalism on western pakistan?

[kunatawar]

"Western Pakistan tried to impose Punjabi nationalism, hegemony and identity on Eastern Pakistan."

Don't you mean eastern pakistan tried to impose punjabi nationalism on western pakistan?

hes talking about bangladesh when he says eastern pakistan not in todays sense

[jama0112]

Oh, so it's like the punjabi parts of Pakistan that's trying to assimilate bangladeshis?
But, aren't they like friends somehow, despite that Bangladesh is close to India?

[kunatawar]

Oh, so it's like the punjabi parts of Pakistan that's trying to assimilate bangladeshis?
But, aren't they like friends somehow, despite that Bangladesh is close to India?

bangladesh used to be part of pakistan before 1971, bangladesh was called east pakistan and pakistan was called west pakistan. They ended up becoming their own country because west pakistan wanted political and cultural hegemony (for example pakistan tried to impose urdu on east pakistan/bangladesh)

[maneatinglizard]

I agree with a lot of your thoughts.

The problem with a lot of modern Islamic movements is that they’re essentially reactions to the shock of the Western defeat of Muslims. We need to get out of the mindset of seeing things through that lense, and instead reignite the culture, philosophy, and traditions that defined our societies for the last 1500 years. Our revival needs to be based on what made us who we were at our best, not on how we were defeated at our weakest.

We also need leaders who will stop this endless game of swapping patronage from the US to Russia and vice versa. It’s so disappointing to see that the most likely reaction to Trump’s declaration of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital will be the Islamic world reorienting itself towards Russia once again. The Islamic world has tons of resources, land, and people. We don’t need to be lapdogs for the US and Russia. Neither side has our best interests in mind, and would rather we remain weak and easily manipulatable.

[SavageCurry]

Islamic unity is potentially something amazing.

[Firdousi]

I agree with a lot of your thoughts.

The problem with a lot of modern Islamic movements is that they’re essentially reactions to the shock of the Western defeat of Muslims. We need to get out of the mindset of seeing things through that lense, and instead reignite the culture, philosophy, and traditions that defined our societies for the last 1500 years. Our revival needs to be based on what made us who we were at our best, not on how we were defeated at our weakest.

We also need leaders who will stop this endless game of swapping patronage from the US to Russia and vice versa. It’s so disappointing to see that the most likely reaction to Trump’s declaration of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital will be the Islamic world reorienting itself towards Russia once again. The Islamic world has tons of resources, land, and people. We don’t need to be lapdogs for the US and Russia. Neither side has our best interests in mind, and would rather we remain weak and easily manipulatable.

Thanks!

I don't think thats even possible. I mean, from a psychological point of view, those who have been defeated, oppressed or humiliated, will never forget. Black Americans still angry at White Americans because slavery although it was abolished many decades ago. Chinese people call the invasion of the West "the Century of Humiliation". Russian ultra-nationalist people like Putin want revenge against the West because of the URSS defeat.. and Muslims, Muslims are by far the angriest among those who have been defeated. I don't think Muslims will ever let the feeling of humiliation go basically because its what fuels their power.

We don't have leaders. Not now. Most of Islamic regimes are useless, corrupt, tyrannical and an utter failure. As I have said many times before, the declaration of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel its actually good for the Islamic world. It reminds the Islamic masses how utterly incompetent their elites are. They have hit an all time low. Muslims don't expect much from the West or Russia, but disappointment with their regimes can't get any higher or bigger than what it is now.

I don't think most of Muslims love Russia. Actually I believe Russia is in the psyche of the Muslims as one of their main enemies. Russia killed Chechens, Russia invaded Central Asia, Russia invaded Afghanistan,.. and now Russia is killing Syrians. Now that the American power is waning, I believe Russia will become once again the "Great Satan" lol

Anyway, even if Muslim corrupt leaders rely on Russia, it doesn't really matter. Russia is not USA. Russia lacks of a powerful soft power, culture and economy. They have a huge demographic crisis and also its society is in crisis too. Russia can't do much in the Islamic world. Muslims must get their s hit together and solve their own problems.

Now that American power is waning, UE is crumbling, and the Liberal Order is actually falling apart, I believe many things are going to change in the coming years. Dead of nation-states in the Islamic world is a matter of time.

[Firdousi]

bangladesh used to be part of pakistan before 1971, bangladesh was called east pakistan and pakistan was called west pakistan. They ended up becoming their own country because west pakistan wanted political and cultural hegemony (for example pakistan tried to impose urdu on east pakistan/bangladesh)

Western nation-states, Western nationalism and Western cultural-racism ("the martial race" theory and other BS like that) were end up in several failures and humiliations for Pakistan. Westernized Pakistani elites really bought all that colonial BS about races, nations and identities and nothing good bought to them.

When will people realize that what is good in some regions can be extremely counterproductive in others??

[jama0112]

You mean pakis today? If you mean today's pakis, then i'm ****ing suprised. I get today's indians are like that and pakis all over the net are like that too, but i have never experienced any pakis in real life being like that, except some sayyed paki punjabi claiming arab heritage.

[maneatinglizard]

You mean pakis today? If you mean today's pakis, then i'm ****ing suprised. I get today's indians are like that and pakis all over the net are like that too, but i have never experienced any pakis in real life being like that, except some sayyed paki punjabi claiming arab heritage.

The majority of Pakistanis and Indians are fine people, especially those in the West. They're generally kind, hardworking, and realize that their countries are trash. I guess there's a problem with ghetto Pakistanis in the UK that are good for nothing, but I've never met someone like that in the US.

The nuts on the internet seem to be a loud minority. I'm pretty sure the Indians I know would be really embarrassed if they saw the crazy things that their countrymen have said here.

[jama0112]

Embarrassed? Embarrassed is weak word. Oh boy, just imagining your own countrymen acting arrogant and re-claim themselves as aryans and as superiors all the time on the INTERNET, despite they're just some unsuccessful dead walking meat with moss on it, after only being used to have their asses glued on the chair, because they could only use ****-cans, while their mothers bring them food down to the basem- i mean, their offices.