Pashtuns as Iranian people?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Ok
I promise to take a look at this book.
But I must admit I can't take it very seriously as it is written by a guy named Ernest Trumpp.

well if you've done comparable research then by all means present your findings like Mr. Trump did.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Im not claiming its an ancient source, just responding to you saying that Awghan isnt the same as Afghan.

well the annotations in the text suggest it may in fact not be ...

[Akbar]

well if you've done comparable research then by all means present your findings like Mr. Trump did.

It's Mr Trumpp

I haven't done any comparable research.
I didn't need to do it.
But I'm highly skeptical of "scholary" writings by people who have their own foreign look on this subject.
Even skeptical of ancient Persian Greek and Roman writings.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

I had actually asked Samandri about this Mongol Afghan thing a while ago and he had a very good explanation for this.

Yes i have gone through that part of Tarikh-i-Guzida, and its very confusing........Habibullah Tegay has talked about it in his book, so i consulted Tarikh-i-Guzida which was luckily available on web.....its not even clear who exactly were "Jarmai" tagging along with Afghans. There is another source, of circa 1230, Jahan-Gusha, its says that a levy of Afghans and Khalj was mobilized by the Mongols which took part in the punitive expedition to the region of Merv.......it might be that some Afghans might have thrown their lot with Mongols and were thus associated with Mongols.

[MENTION=18842]Samandri[/MENTION] im sure you dont mind me sharing something from PM since theres no personal info right?

Also Persian speaking Afghans say Awghan not Pashtuns.

No, Persian speaking Afghans satirize us by saying "Awghan" , it's a way
of making fun of us. They're mocking the fact that we don't have a native "f" sound in Pashto historically. You can still hear our F---> P thing in many rural dialects.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

they use it to satirize when they say stuff like Awghani ghoul but its said in street vernacular aswell. Atleast this is according to my grandfather who was born and raised in a Pashtun village then moved to Kabul as a teen.

maybe, I've never heard Farsiwan/Tajiks just say it casually other than to mock Pashtuns lol.

[salman47]

That's it
Wikipedia?
You do know anyone can write and edit Wikipedia articles?
Pashto is not Iranian language. That term is a fraud .
Ormuri and Pashaie are probably distict languages on their own as well.

I know Wikipedia is not right all the time, but the research done on the PIE, Iranian languages group is quite good and well referenced on Wikipedia.
We can't just ignore everything written by non-Pashtuns. Some of the researchers actually visited our places and lived for a while with us. They have been learning the languages and now teaching them at a Ph.D level in the West.
They've done very good research on us. They kind of know more about us than we do. [Honestly Speaking]

[Sarbani]

why would Qazwini refer to us as a tribe of Mongols?

It may have been used synonymously with "nomad" or "Central Asian" or "subjects of the Mongol Empire". The word Mongol didn't carry an ethnic meaning originally. Until not too long ago, not even Oirats called themselves Mongols.

[Sarbani]

That's it
Wikipedia?
You do know anyone can write and edit Wikipedia articles?
Pashto is not Iranian language. That term is a fraud .
Ormuri and Pashaie are probably distict languages on their own as well.

Do you also deny that Pashto is an Indo-European language?

[Samandri]

Arabic source "kamil fil tareekh" (completed in 1230 AD) by Ibn-Athir (Iraqi Arab) uses "Awghan" for Pashtuns in the account of conflict between Sultan Sanjar (Seljuk) and Arsalan Shah (Ghaznavid ruler) in 1117 AD . I dont have the book itself but excerpts translated into Pashto are given by Habibullah Tegay in his book (he gives citation as Vol.18, p-179 and p-216). It says that the defeated Arsalan Shah Ghazanvi sought refuge in the mountains of "Awghans" (اوغنان) and attacked its people. He mentions a place of by name of Karman (Kurram) and gives explanation that it is located between Ghazni and Hind, and says that its inhabitants are "Afghans" (افغان) . The same events are described by Tarikh-i-Farihsta of 17th century but he only uses the Persian pronunciation Afghan. Ibn-i-Athir mentions Afghans as "infidels" which indicate that many Pashtuns were still non-Muslims in 12th century. It might be that it were these non-Muslim Pashtuns who allied themselves with Mongols in later times.

The mixed usage of Awghan and Afghan also occurs in Tarikh-i-nama-Herat, written 90 years after Ibn-i-Athir. Its a pure Persian source as mentioned by Afghanfootball, and we see it using اوغان، اوغانستان as well as افغان، افغانستان . If the word Afghan is coined by Persians, then Pashtuns have turned it into Awghan. If its original Pashtun then Persians have turned into Afghan.

Now lets talk about Jami al-tawarikh's usage of Awghans in connection with Mongols. It says قبایل مغول اوغانی و جرمائی. Definitely Afghan is meant here because a 15th century Timurid source by name of Matla Sadain uses "Awghan and Garmai" as well as "Afghan and Germai" (reference:Abdul Bari Jahani's اوغان؟ (یوه تحقیقاتي څیړنه)). Matlaa Sadain says that "Afghans" were defeated by Shah Shuja in Karman and they agreed to pay tribute to him........But the source which fully clarifies it, is Rauzatul Safa of 1475 AD. It says Amir Mubaraz-ud-din subdued Awghans and Germais of قلعۀ سلیمان (

امرای اوغانی و جرمائی درقلعۀ سلیمان … متحصن شدند… امیرمبارز الدین سرانجام اوغانیان و جرماییان را مطیع کرد). At another place the same source says that Timur attacked Awghans of Koh Suliman اوغانیان کوه سلیمان.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

It may have been used synonymously with "nomad" or "Central Asian" or "subjects of the Mongol Empire". The word Mongol didn't carry an ethnic meaning originally. Until not too long ago, not even Oirats called themselves Mongols.

That doesn't sound reasonable, since Mongols of Qazwini's time were definitely distinct and identifiable ....this guy is more likely not referring to Pashtuns.

[Firdousi]

No, Persian speaking Afghans satirize us by saying "Awghan" , it's a way
of making fun of us. They're mocking the fact that we don't have a native "f" sound in Pashto historically. You can still hear our F---> P thing in many rural dialects.

Thats partially true. Yeah at the beginning "Awghan" had a bad meaning. Persian speakers used to mock Pashtuns by calling them that. But thats not the case anymore. Nowadays many Tajiks in the north call to Afghanistan "Awghanistan" and to themselves "Awghan". In Herat we don't use the word "Pashtun" but rather "Awghan". Its not derogatory

[Firdousi]

It's Mr Trumpp

I haven't done any comparable research.
I didn't need to do it.
But I'm highly skeptical of "scholary" writings by people who have their own foreign look on this subject.
Even skeptical of ancient Persian Greek and Roman writings.

Yeah you only trust ancient Pashtun writings lol

[Admin Khan]

Arabic source "kamil fil tareekh" (completed in 1230 AD) by Ibn-Athir (Iraqi Arab) uses "Awghan" for Pashtuns in the account of conflict between Sultan Sanjar (Seljuk) and Arsalan Shah (Ghaznavid ruler) in 1117 AD . I dont have the book itself but excerpts translated into Pashto are given by Habibullah Tegay in his book (he gives citation as Vol.18, p-179 and p-216). It says that the defeated Arsalan Shah Ghazanvi sought refuge in the mountains of "Awghans" (اوغنان) and attacked its people. He mentions a place of by name of Karman (Kurram) and gives explanation that it is located between Ghazni and Hind, and says that its inhabitants are "Afghans" (افغان) . The same events are described by Tarikh-i-Farihsta of 17th century but he only uses the Persian pronunciation Afghan. Ibn-i-Athir mentions Afghans as "infidels" which indicate that many Pashtuns were still non-Muslims in 12th century. It might be that it were these non-Muslim Pashtuns who allied themselves with Mongols in later times.

The mixed usage of Awghan and Afghan also occurs in Tarikh-i-nama-Herat, written 90 years after Ibn-i-Athir. Its a pure Persian source as mentioned by Afghanfootball, and we see it using اوغان، اوغانستان as well as افغان، افغانستان . If the word Afghan is coined by Persians, then Pashtuns have turned it into Awghan. If its original Pashtun then Persians have turned into Afghan.

Now lets talk about Jami al-tawarikh's usage of Awghans in connection with Mongols. It says قبایل مغول اوغانی و جرمائی. Definitely Afghan is meant here because a 15th century Timurid source by name of Matla Sadain uses "Awghan and Garmai" as well as "Afghan and Germai" (reference:Abdul Bari Jahani's اوغان؟ (یوه تحقیقاتي څیړنه)). Matlaa Sadain says that "Afghans" were defeated by Shah Shuja in Karman and they agreed to pay tribute to him........But the source which fully clarifies it, is Rauzatul Safa of 1475 AD. It says Amir Mubaraz-ud-din subdued Awghans and Germais of قلعۀ سلیمان (

امرای اوغانی و جرمائی درقلعۀ سلیمان … متحصن شدند… امیرمبارز الدین سرانجام اوغانیان و جرماییان را مطیع کرد). At another place the same source says that Timur attacked Awghans of Koh Suliman اوغانیان کوه سلیمان.

That was very informational, keep it up!

[Samandri]

Although Tarikh-i-Guzida of Qazwini is written in 1330, the supplementary chapter at the end , known as Muzafarnama, in which Awghans and Germai stuff is mentioned, is not authored by Qazwini but by unknown author of Timur times. It is omitted from most of the manuscripts of Tarikh-i-Guzdia. It gives details about Muzaffarid dynasty up to the period of 1393, so this Muzaffarnama chapter of Tarikh-i-Guzdia was written during the reign of Timur. From the same period , there are two sources which mentions Awghans ;

1- The autobiography of Timur, Malfuzat-i-Timuri or or Tuzk-i-Timuri. He uses the pronunciation Awghan and they appear in in the events before invasion of India. The English translation of part of the relevant passage is ;

"The design which i formed for clearing road to Hindustan, from the Awghans, was this.

It was reported unto me that certain of the Awghans infested the road to Hindustan, and robbed and plundered therein : and especially Musa Awghan, who was the head of the tribe of Gurgus (Ghurghust?). And he came down on Lashkar Shah Awghan, who was one of my servants and well-wishers........."

2- A biography of Timur by name of Zafarnama, written in 1424, by Sharfuddin Ali al-Yazidi, also uses the pronunciation Awghan and says "....Pir Muhammad Khan (grandson of Timur) began with the plunder of the Awghans, inhabitants of Sulieman-koh, which country they entirely ravaged".

[Akbar]

Yeah you only trust ancient Pashtun writings lol

Since we don't have any of those , any external sources like the persian shouldn't be considered.

Sunni Muslim sources are the most trust worthy so far including hadeeth.

They all point out to Bani Israel.

You must love to be called Iranian subgroup even though you aren't.