Pashtunistan/Loy Afghanistan vs Loyalism to Pakistan ? Reasons for and against.

[Peacelove]

Pashtuns and Baluch of Afghanistan surely prefer Desification and getting absorbed by Indian type people like Punjabis. lol

I agree with you to decide there should be referendum in Pashtun belt across Pakistan and Afghanistan same goes with Baloch ..Let everyone freely decide where they wish to be part of

[ذو الفقار]

Sorry to say but people like you oppose the creation of Pakistan too..and want us to remain with in Hindu majority India where we were always would have been treated like second class..
Sooner or later pakistan will correct itself...According to your teaching what should be done with India ? Or canada ?

Being second class citizens under Hindu domination is preferable to the course on which Pakistan is heading.

Nothing should be done with India or Canada, they are not our countries we should mind our own business. I live in Canada because I was born in Canada to immigrant parents. For me Canada is just a land (a beautiful land at that), but nothing more. I have no feeling of loyalty to the Canadian State or any emotional attachment to this country. I am opposed to nationalism and patriotism as a matter of principle. The only place I have emotional attachment to are the holy places like Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem, Mt. Sinai.

[Kakar-Wardak]

One of the ethnic groups of Afghanistan which I feel we have a responsibility toward are the Hazara. They are a beautiful humble people but tragically have suffered too much hatred, racism and persecution especially at the hands of the Pashtuns, something which should stir our conscience.

Really I'm surprised Amir abdulrahman didnt forcefully convert them to sunni Islam like he did to the nuristanis.

[ذو الفقار]

Well you said it should stir "our" conscience.

I am speaking on behalf of Muslims collectively.

[Peacelove]

Being second class citizens under Hindu domination is preferable to the course on which Pakistan is heading.

Nothing should be done with India or Canada, they are not our countries we should mind our own business. I live in Canada because I was born in Canada to immigrant parents. For me Canada is just a land (a beautiful land at that), but nothing more. I have no feeling of loyalty to the Canadian State or any emotional attachment to this country. I am opposed to nationalism and patriotism as a matter of principle. The only place I have emotional attachment to are the holy places like Mecca, Medina, Jerusalem, Mt. Sinai.

The more you speak the more you expose yourself...A muslim however bad is should not or would not prefer to live under Hindu rulers...You are typical indian...
If you don't support nationalism why don't you just say " Muslims should wage Jihad on Land of Pagans and establish a muslim rule in Hindu dominated land"..
Or it hurts you to say that...Because you are taking of Hindu army killing and raping muslims in Kashmir....

[Kakar-Wardak]

Greatest disappointment for me is that Nader shah was killed before he could convert Iran back to sunni Islam.

[Elite Pakhtun]

I am speaking on behalf of Muslims collectively.

What about non-Muslims? Should it stir their conscience as well?

[ذو الفقار]

The more you speak the more you expose yourself...A muslim however bad is should not or would not prefer to live under Hindu rulers...You are typical indian...

The principle is to preserve our Religion. We should prefer to live in that environment where we are free to practice our Religion and keep our religious lifestyle without interference from the state. The objective is not to acquire political power, but to maintain an environment where we can practice our Religion in a thriving manner. At present, Pakistan is moving in a very secular and authoritarian direction, where Deeni Madaris are forcefully being closed, loudspeakers silenced, religious gatherings banned, and the government education system is becoming de-Islamized which means our next generation of Pakistanis will be significantly less Islamic. I'm sorry to say but this seems to be an irreversible trend, like a wheel rolling down a hill, there's no hope that it will suddenly stop and climb back up in the other direction against the law of gravity. This is the parable of Pakistan's course of de-Islamization.

In India, however, the Muslim community's leadership are the Ulama, not the feudalists, industrialists or generals. Pakistan's leadership should have likewise gone to the Ulama, but regrettably that did not happen, and Pakistan became dominated politically by feudalists, industrialists and military, while Ulama lost their position of influence they held during British colonial period. But the situation is different in India, where Ulama still wield influence as de facto leaders of the Muslim community. Plus, Muslims in India are more conscious of their Muslim-ness living in a Hindu dominated country, and hence more attached to their Muslim identity, as opposed to most Pakistanis for whom being Muslim is taken for granted.

If you don't support nationalism why don't you just say " Muslims should wage Jihad on Land of Pagans and establish a muslim rule in Hindu dominated land"..
Or it hurts you to say that

How did you switch from the topic of nationalism to Jihad? Totally separate issues. Jihad is only meant to be defensive, we can't just randomly attack people without casus belli.

[ذو الفقار]

What about non-Muslims? Should it stir their conscience as well?

I don't know. You should ask them not me. I'm a Muslim

[Peacelove]

The principle is to preserve our Religion. We should prefer to live in that environment where we are free to practice our Religion and keep our religious lifestyle without interference from the state. The objective is not to acquire political power, but to maintain an environment where we can practice our Religion in a thriving manner. At present, Pakistan is moving in a very secular and authoritarian direction, where Deeni Madaris are forcefully being closed, loudspeakers silenced, religious gatherings banned, and the government education system is becoming de-Islamized which means our next generation of Pakistanis will be significantly less Islamic. I'm sorry to say but this seems to be an irreversible trend, like a wheel rolling down a hill, there's no hope that it will suddenly stop and climb back up in the other direction against the law of gravity. This is the parable of Pakistan's course of de-Islamization.

In India, however, the Muslim community's leadership are the Ulama, not the feudalists, industrialists or generals. Pakistan's leadership should have likewise gone to the Ulama, but regrettably that did not happen, and Pakistan became dominated politically by feudalists, industrialists and military, while Ulama lost their position of influence they held during British colonial period. But the situation is different in India, where Ulama still wield influence as de facto leaders of the Muslim community. Plus, Muslims in India are more conscious of their Muslim-ness living in a Hindu dominated country, and hence more attached to their Muslim identity, as opposed to most Pakistanis for whom being Muslim is taken for granted.



How did you switch from the topic of nationalism to Jihad? Totally separate issues. Jihad is only meant to be defensive, we can't just randomly attack people without casus belli.

An indian/canadian never visited Pakistan explaining what is happening in Pakistan...None of madrash has been closed..Which alternative world you are living...
They way you are defending India is what Molana Azad type Indian nationalistic used to do...In india there is no Muslim ruler so who is doing what have no impact...For likes of you Iqbal said "Mullah Ko Jo Hai Hind Mein Sajde Ki Ijazat Nadan Ye Samajhta Hai Ke Islam Hai Azad"...
Lol you lost your arguments when you started to defend a India a Land ruled by Pagans...
Yes please justify the killing of Kashmirs ? by India/Hindu Army ? What is the teaching of Islam for land where Muslims are being killed by Non-Muslims ? Raped and Killed ?
You are defending a Land where even Muslims are prohibited to slaughter a cow on Eid against a country where on Eid every second street it is being done openly,,,But yes In india there are more freedom...You are going right buddy..I don't blame you since your parents are Indian you will naturally defend India...
I am completely on track ...Just need you to speak clearly .....Supporting a Hindu rule of country against a bad Muslim..Wierd logic

[Kakar-Wardak]

The principle is to preserve our Religion. We should prefer to live in that environment where we are free to practice our Religion and keep our religious lifestyle without interference from the state. The objective is not to acquire political power, but to maintain an environment where we can practice our Religion in a thriving manner. At present, Pakistan is moving in a very secular and authoritarian direction, where Deeni Madaris are forcefully being closed, loudspeakers silenced, religious gatherings banned, and the government education system is becoming de-Islamized which means our next generation of Pakistanis will be significantly less Islamic. I'm sorry to say but this seems to be an irreversible trend, like a wheel rolling down a hill, there's no hope that it will suddenly stop and climb back up in the other direction against the law of gravity. This is the parable of Pakistan's course of de-Islamization.

In India, however, the Muslim community's leadership are the Ulama, not the feudalists, industrialists or generals. Pakistan's leadership should have likewise gone to the Ulama, but regrettably that did not happen, and Pakistan became dominated politically by feudalists, industrialists and military, while Ulama lost their position of influence they held during British colonial period. But the situation is different in India, where Ulama still wield influence as de facto leaders of the Muslim community. Plus, Muslims in India are more conscious of their Muslim-ness living in a Hindu dominated country, and hence more attached to their Muslim identity, as opposed to most Pakistanis for whom being Muslim is taken for granted.



How did you switch from the topic of nationalism to Jihad? Totally separate issues. Jihad is only meant to be defensive, we can't just randomly attack people without casus belli.

Lol how is Jihad only defensive how do you think Islam spread, through Tableeghi jamat lol? Do you think they did Ghast and all the infidels came to Islam lol.

[ذو الفقار]

Lol how is Jihad only defensive how do you think Islam spread, through Tableeghi jamat lol? Do you think they did Ghast and all the infidels came to Islam lol.

Islam never spread through Jihad. Yes, the Muslim empire expanded its borders through warfare, but majority of the population of that empire were in fact non-Muslims living under the Muslim domination of the Ummayad dynasty. In fact, it was the policy of the Ummayads to discourage conversion to Islam in order to benefit from more people having to pay the Jizya tribute, and so that the Ajams did not gain the same equal rights as the ruling Arab class.

Islam spread through the missionary activities of Sufis. This isn't my opinion or some kind of Islamic romanticism, even impartial Western, non-Muslim academics accept this fact.

[kanishka]

is it true that alot of Pakistani Loyalist Pashtuns are hard-liners and attack and criticize Pashtunistan supporters?

because i find it quite suprising.
it's been the opposite for me. This was so since i realized that i was me who was going out of his way to attack, bash or criticize gul khans. But it makes sense.

Considering Bacha Khan's non-violent approach to solve his problems. He'd tell his non-violent pashtuns to not diss or thrash gul khans if he was present .

So it only singles out the Afghan Mellat and some Pashtun internet warriors being the hard-liners.

[ذو الفقار]

An indian/canadian never visited Pakistan explaining what is happening in Pakistan...None of madrash has been closed..Which alternative world you are living...

I have visited Pakistan during the height of Operation Raddul Fasaad. As I explained in my intro, my mother is Pakistani from Multan. I stayed in Multan for little over 2 years. I returned to Canada in April 2016.
During my stay in Pakistan I observed a nation that is increasingly becoming secular. The State is cracking down on the Madaris. They are forcefully shutting down all Madaris which are not registered with the government. They are also imposing their own curricular requirements on the Madaris. Basically, the Pakistani State is going in the same direction as the authoritarian Arab countries like Egypt, Syria, Algeria, etc., where the State closely monitors the mosques and controls and regulates religious activities.

They way you are defending India is what Molana Azad type Indian nationalistic used to do...

I never once defended India. I am against ALL forms of nationalism, including Azad's Indian nationalism.

In india there is no Muslim ruler so who is doing what have no impact...For likes of you Iqbal said "Mullah Ko Jo Hai Hind Mein Sajde Ki Ijazat Nadan Ye Samajhta Hai Ke Islam Hai Azad"...

For me Iqbal is no authority. Tariq Ali wrote in his book that Iqbal died of syphilis (an STD) because he used to visit the red light districts of Lahore too much. I totally reject the modernist Iqbalian ideas and philosophy about Islam. Iqbal is the one responsible for why Pakistan is not Islamic, because the Pakistani State is invoking Iqbal's modernist ideas as justification for not implementing Taliban-style Islamic system of justice and government. For example, Iqbal wrote:

"Is it the development of a general materialist outlook in Turkey which seems inimical to Islam? Islam has had too much of renunciation; it is time for the Muslims to look to realities. Materialism is a bad weapon against religion; but it is quite an effective one against Mulla-craft and Sufi-craft, which deliberately mystify the people with a view to exploiting their ignorance and credulity...Is it, then, the abolition of the old dress or the introduction of the Latin script? Islam as a religion has no country; as a society it has no specific language, no specific dress. Even the recitation of the Qur'an in Turkish is not without some precedent in Muslim history...Is it then the abolition of polygamy or the licentiate Ulama? According to the Law of Islam, the Amir of a Muslim State has the power to revoke the "permissions" of the law if he is convinced that they tend to cause social corruption. As to the licentiate Ulama I would certainly introduce it in Muslim India if I had the power to do so...Is it the abolition of the Caliphate or the separation of Church and State? In its essence Islam is not Imperialism. In the abolition of the Caliphate which, since the days of the Umayyads, had practically become a kind of Empire, it is only the spirit of Islam that has worked out through the Ataturk...Nor is the idea of separation of Church and State alien to Islam...Nationalism in the sense of love of one's country and even readiness to die for its honour is a part of the Muslims' faith...In majority countries Islam accommodates nationalism; for there Islam and nationalism are practically identical."

As for Iqbal's assertion that it is foolish for the Mulla to think Islam is free because he has permission to offer personal devotions to God, this is an example of how Iqbal's conception of Islam was against the traditional conception and colored by the influence of modernism and materialism upon him. I argue that it is precisely because the contemporary Pakistani State considers Iqbal one of its founding fathers and has made his heretical ideas into its national narrative that Pakistan has betrayed Islam and should not be considered an Islamic project anymore.

Lol you lost your arguments when you started to defend a India a Land ruled by Pagans...
Yes please justify the killing of Kashmirs ? by India/Hindu Army ? What is the teaching of Islam for land where Muslims are being killed by Non-Muslims ? Raped and Killed ?

Once again I ask you when did I ever defend India or the atrocities committed against Muslims in India? That is not the point of our discussion.

You are defending a Land where even Muslims are prohibited to slaughter a cow on Eid against a country where on Eid every second street it is being done openly,,,

Slaughtering a cow on Eid is not mandatory in Islam. In fact the Sunna of Abraham was to sacrifice a ram, not a cow. If cow slaughter is illegal in India this has nothing to do with being against Islam nor is it a threat to Islam, because cow sacrifice is not a fundamental religious practice for us. In fact, Iqbal himself, in the quote I cited earlier, argued that the Amir of a Muslim country has the authority to prohibit something which is otherwise Halal according to Islamic law. Interestingly, there is also a Hadith in which the Prophet (Sallallaho alaihi wasallam) discouraged the eating of beef for health reasons.

The Pakistani State banning the free use of loudspeakers by Mosques is a greater attack on the freedom to practice Islam than the Indian State banning cow-slaughter. Pakistani law allows for the drinking of alcohol in designated hotels; it allows for interest-based commercial banking...these are much more serious threats to Islam than banning cow-slaughter.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Viable or not, it has to be admitted that Pakistan is the most powerful since it is the only nuclear armed Muslim state.

No it doesn't, that's just your government Kool Aid talking. How come with all this Islam talk you're so into nationalism? It's like you're confused.

But I digress ..back to the point. Pakistan having nukes doesn't really relay the effectiveness of the Nukes, the actual payload capacity, and the type of power the reaction chain mechanism is. Yeah it'll kill but not enough for nuclear winter. So if Pakistan ever detonated a nuke, yeah people would die, but it would be very localized. The world would just join in in ripping Pakistan apart. Having a nuke is thus, more detrimental for Pakistan than the rest of the world. There's no way the rest of the world would sit back and let Pakistan detonate a nuke and Pakistan's military equipment is not advanced enough to face a full global assault

Thems be facts brah.