Jumat-i-Islami are enemies of Pakhtuns

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Regarding spirituality: in Islam we believe that the people with best manner and Adab are more advanced spiritually.

I don't mean to offend you by saying this, but you two rational liberal intellectual and modern Muslims sure do lack spirituality in that sense. You keep insulting and trash talking.

If your attitude is a sign of your spirituality than you are the most empty individuals imaginable.

[Firdousi]

What both of you are saying is best summarized as this: Islamic texts conflicting with my personal desires and preferences are restrictive. I want to be able to say that I am a Muslim and still do whatever I want.

The problem here is that you think that if there is anything in Islam that doesn't meet your own personal desires then it must be changed. All this talk of humanism, rationalism and homo erotic gay Persian poets is just hollow rhetoric.

It all stems from your understanding of Islam. Newsflash: You can be a Muslim and you can acknowledge and respect some aspects of Islam as truly Islamic even if they restrict you from doing whatever you want.

Muslims lie, cheat, drink alcohol, fornicate and do all sorts of other stuff prohibited in Islam. Still they don't say: Islam should become more rational or liberal to accommodate their needs. No! They just accept that they are human beings and that they aren't supposed to be perfect and free from sin. They just try to improve themselves as individuals without having to do mental gymnastics.

That's a much more liberating approach to religion and life than what you guys are advocating.

Once again you don't know what are you talking about. This is not about homosexuality, fornication or drinking alcohol. Pretty obvious according Islamic values thats wrong. And I am fine with it. But originally Islam was a religion founded in the Arabian peninsula 14 centuries ago. Once Muslims took over the rest of the region and Muslim community grew stronger and bigger Muslims realized that Islam needed to be adapted to their realities. Thats why several mahdabs were created.

Now Islam needs to be adapted to modern life. Technology, world political system,.. everything has changed. Muslims are failing miserably to adapt and the world is leaving us behind. Since we are less developed other civilizations are taking advantage of us. And its all because people like you, Shamlawar.

Seems like Muslims were much smarter ten centuries go than now.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

What both of you are saying is best summarized as this: Islamic texts conflicting with my personal desires and preferences are restrictive. I want to be able to say that I am a Muslim and still do whatever I want.

The problem here is that you think that if there is anything in Islam that doesn't meet your own personal desires then it must be changed. All this talk of humanism, rationalism and homo erotic gay Persian poets is just hollow rhetoric.

It all stems from your understanding of Islam. Newsflash: You can be a Muslim and you can acknowledge and respect some aspects of Islam as truly Islamic even if they restrict you from doing whatever you want.

Muslims lie, cheat, drink alcohol, fornicate and do all sorts of other stuff prohibited in Islam. Still they don't say: Islam should become more rational or liberal to accommodate their needs. No! They just accept that they are human beings and that they aren't supposed to be perfect and free from sin. They just try to improve themselves as individuals without having to do mental gymnastics.

That's a much more liberating approach to religion and life than what you guys are advocating.

That's not at all what we're saying; because most of what you claim are "Islamic texts" are really just narratives of certain individuals AFTER the fact.

Like where is there any reference to Nawruz anywhere in any Islamic Text? Qur'an , Hadith?

You're comparing apples and oranges between Fornication and Celebrating Nawruz or music etc. Fornication and how we manage sexuality deals with basic human needs and instincts. We by our rational nature need to channel them properly. This can't be said for our sense of creativity, which Nawruz may be a very valid outlet for.

As for these so called "homoerotic gay Persian" ....all the bizarre imagination of basically Tabloid minds, who are just looking for a pretext to insert their own agenda.

[Firdousi]

Well I believe there's room for everyone. if Shamlawar wants this rigid, austere way of life, no fun, no movies, no art, no laughter, that's fine. As long as this isn't what he expects everyone else to be like.

But this isn't the vision I want for our future. Our growth as people and as humanity depends on our willingness and openness to explore different avenues of experience and expression. We have the framework and the essential principles by which to navigate ourselves, let's use them to explore the deeper riches of our existence. In Science and in the Arts and Humanities. We're never going to recreate the past, and we don't have to, we just have to use the tools that gave us to build our future.

Nawruz ruits are delicious.

Brother thats the thing. Shamlawar is a khwariji doing takfir all the time: "you disagree with me? Then you are not a Muslim!" Its impossible to coexist with such intolerant and irrational people.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Once again you don't know what are you talking about. This is not about homosexuality, fornication or drinking alcohol. Pretty obvious according Islamic values thats wrong. And I am fine with it. But originally Islam was a religion founded in the Arabian peninsula 14 centuries ago. Once Muslims took over the rest of the region and Muslim community grew stronger and bigger Muslims realized that Islam needed to be adapted to their realities. Thats why several mahdabs were created.

Now Islam needs to be adapted to modern life. Technology, world political system,.. everything has changed. Muslims are failing miserably to adapt and the world is leaving us behind. Since we are less developed other civilizations are taking advantage of us. And its all because people like you, Shamlawar.

Seems like Muslims were much smarter ten centuries go than now.

Prohibition on celebrating festivals of disbelievers isn't any different than the prohibition on fornication and consuming alcohol.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

That's not at all what we're saying; because most of what you claim are "Islamic texts" are really just narratives of certain individuals AFTER the fact.

Like where is there any reference to Nawruz anywhere in any Islamic Text? Qur'an , Hadith?

You're comparing apples and oranges between Fornication and Celebrating Nawruz or music etc. Fornication and how we manage sexuality deals with basic human needs and instincts. We by our rational nature need to channel them properly. This can't be said for our sense of creativity, which Nawruz may be a very valid outlet for.

As for these so called "homoerotic gay Persian" ....all the bizarre imagination of basically Tabloid minds, who are just looking for a pretext to insert their own agenda.

Yes, the prohibition is in Hadith and I have posted the texts. I also posted an entire book about homosexuality in Persian literature.

Your problem is with facts.

[Firdousi]

Prohibition on celebrating festivals of disbelievers isn't any different than the prohibition on fornication and consuming alcohol.

Nawrooz is a harmless thing. Fornication, drugs and alcohol are not. If you seriously believe those things are the same you seriously need to check your values.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Nawrooz is a harmless thing. Fornication, drugs and alcohol are not. If you seriously believe those things are the same you seriously need to check your values.

Again, you are picking and choosing. You believe that there is harm in one and not the other. Therefore you ignore prohibition. You make your own rules. That's liberalism: self worship.

[Firdousi]

Again, you are picking and choosing. You believe that there is harm in one and not the other. Therefore you ignore prohibition. You make your own rules. That's liberalism: self worship.

Dude you still confusing liberalism and rationalism. Please, use your brain. Do you seriously believe Nawrooz is as bad as murder? Do you seriously believe that by saying Nawruz pirouz you make the same harm than by insulting someones wife? If according to you those all things are the same.. THEN WHY MUSLIM QADHIS SAY THAT THE PUNISHMENT IS DIFFERENT FOR EACH ONE OF THEM?

You make no sense. You are confused. You are a derailed person who has lost contact with the real world, my takfiri friend.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Prohibition on celebrating festivals of disbelievers isn't any different than the prohibition on fornication and consuming alcohol.

This is a starement that is easy to debunk, using the same Usul that you believe supports your position.

If celebrating Nawruz was the same as forbication or consuming alcohol, then there'd be explicit condemnations for it as there are with fornication and alcohol consumption. There's also be an explicit hudud defined for engaging in it as there is for fornication and alcohol conasumption. There would also be warnings about it about penalties in the afterlife as there is for fornication and alcohol consumption.

In all three of these instances, there's none of these. so they cannot be equivalent.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Dude you still confusing liberalism and rationalism. Please, use your brain. Do you seriously believe Nawrooz is as bad as murder? Do you seriously believe that by saying Nawruz pirouz you make the same harm than by insulting someones wife? If according to you those all things are the same.. THEN WHY MUSLIM QADHIS SAY THAT THE PUNISHMENT IS DIFFERENT FOR EACH ONE OF THEM?

You make no sense. You are confused. You are a derailed person who has lost contact with the real world, my takfiri friend.

so are you saying that if there is punishment for a particular thing then it is officially a sin and against Islam and if there is no punishment then it's not a sin?

Before you said you have a problem with punishments in Islam. Now you use punishments as guidance for what is and what is not Islamic.

interesting stuff.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

The attempt to make nawruz equivalent to major moral crimes just demonstrates how skewed and warped the thinking is of these ideologues.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

This is a starement that is easy to debunk, using the same Usul that you believe supports your position.

If celebrating Nawruz was the same as forbication or consuming alcohol, then there'd be explicit condemnations for it as there are with fornication and alcohol consumption. There's also be an explicit hudud defined for engaging in it as there is for fornication and alcohol conasumption. There would also be warnings about it about penalties in the afterlife as there is for fornication and alcohol consumption.

In all three of these instances, there's none of these. so they cannot be equivalent.

Not all prohibited and sinful acts are mentioned along with punishments in the texts. That doesn't mean that acts without punishments are not prohibited.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

so are you saying that if there is punishment for a particular thing then it is officially a sin and against Islam and if there is no punishment then it's not a sin?

Before you said you have a problem with punishments in Islam. Now you use punishments as guidance for what is and what is not Islamic.

interesting stuff.

For the sake of argument, let's say they are in fact both sins. They're still not equivalent on the basis that was mentioned; They do not have have the same condemnation or hudud applied to them. In fact no hudud or condemnation applied to them. Thus we can conclude there is no basis for them to be sins.

You're flip flopping between whether something is "Islamic" and "equivalent". Not being Islamic, doesn't necessarily mean "Anti-Islamic" or condemned by Islam. They may fall into "mubah".

[Firdousi]

so are you saying that if there is punishment for a particular thing then it is officially a sin and against Islam and if there is no punishment then it's not a sin?

Before you said you have a problem with punishments in Islam. Now you use punishments as guidance for what is and what is not Islamic.

interesting stuff.

I don't know what you mean but you make no sense. You know what I said. By comparing a cultural event like Nowruz with major crimes like murder or social diseases such as drugs or alcohol you are proving how confused you are.

You have lost your mind now. You are trying to twist my words in order to save face.

Have a nice day.