Why Afghans hate Pakistan?(a logical discussion)

[toughpashtun]

There have probably been many threads and discussions about this topic but now I am writing this thread in such a way that we don't go off topic or resort to country bashing.
In my opinion , there there are five possible reasons as to why Afghans have hatred for Pakistan.I feel that these reasons are either not true or self-contradicting.I will list them down one by one and also give my logical reply to each one. You people can correct me if I am wrong and also share your thoughts.

1- Pakistan backed the anti-Soviet Mujahideen in the 1980s thus giving way to bloodshed and war.
My answer: The Soviets were massacring Afghans and the Afghan nation stood up against them. Pakistani support to mujahideen speeded up and aided the process of kicking the soviets out of Afghanistan.

2- Pakistan did not play a good role after Soviet withdrawal leading to civil war , anarchy , lawlessness and more deaths.
My answer: I really don't have any answer for this because I feel Afghans do have a point here.However, one point to be noted is that the civil war mainly took place in Kabul and Kandahar.The rest of the country was not affected by it.Rather they were living in relative peace , albeit with no effective central government.So I don't think that Afghans from areas other than Kabul and Kandahar will really hate Pakistan because of this reason.

3- Pakistan supported the Taliban in mid 90s onwards leading to their government, the Osama issue and the post-2001 war.
My answer: The Taliban was the only faction which promised peace and stability in that era.It also has be borne in mind that when the Taliban came to power, Afghanistan saw stability for the first time in many years.

4- Pakistan helped the U.S and NATO in their attack on Afghanistan in 2001 onwards.
My answer:Okay, I admit it that Pakistan did give airbases to U.S and helped them attack Afghanistan.But the Afghan nation as a whole (except the Taliban) welcomed the U.S and NATO forces, allowed the Western forces to establish a governnment and quickly became part of it. If Afghans hated the U.S/NATO so much , why did not join the Taliban resistance?Why are Afghans supporting the Afghan military which is NATO backed?
And why are Afghans blaming Pakistan for supporting Taliban?

5- Pakistan is supporting the Taliban.
My answer: I admit it that Pakistan is supporting, or at least , has a soft corner for the Taliban.But then when Pakistan supported U.S/NATO initially, you blamed them then also. So what do you (Afghans) want Pakistan to do?Should Pakistan support the invaders or the Taliban?

[Porus]

1. I don't know if Soviets were massacring Afghans or fighting against the rebels, but wasn't it the case that the government in Kabul actually wanted to be a part of the Soviet Union? If that's the case, then this wasn't an invasion. Also, Afghanistan was at the peak of economic progress during the Soviet Union, it's economic growth was higher than it had ever been. So I wouldn't say the Soviets were just there to belittle Afghans.

2. This is true. We did support Gulbuddin Hekmatyar against Dostum and Massoud. Although all of them were the same stockpile of Jihadists that the U.S, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan helped create, Gulbuddin was definitely a very brutal warlord. However, Pakistan wasn't the only country interfering, Iran was there, Saudi was there, India and Uzbekistan were also there. So it wasn't 'just' Pakistan.

3. Taliban seemed benign compared to maybe Dostum or Hekmatyar, but they banned girls schools, they persecuted Hindu and Sikh minorities, they had to wear orange hats to identify themselves, their graves were desecrated. Hazaras were being rounded up for being Shia, the Buddhas were destroyed. Taliban was a fascist regime. We supported them for selfish interests.

4 & 5. I think that's what TTP complain about, most educated Afghans don't want Pakistan to go against U.S and NATO forces. Amrullah Saleh constantly cites this example and says this won't benefit Pakistan in the long-run. It's harming ties with Afghanistan and more importantly the United States.

I think Pakistan should round-up each terrorist, whether they are anti-India, or anti-Afghanistan and put them before a firing squad. Only then will both the neighbours feel that we've moved on. We can't take a moral high ground if we have non-state actors roaming around freely in our country. It makes Indians insecure and more importantly, we as a nation can't see our own future there. Plus, if we keep supporting non-state actors, there will come a time when our neighbours won't tolerate it anymore. There are already suspicions that the BLA and other Baloch Separation outfits are being funded by India through Afghanistan. This is what happens when a state openly declares support for terrorists attacking an 'eternal enemy'.

Once we do that, we can open up trade, think about people to people connections, open borders and eventually I think disputes like Kashmir and the Durand Line will become redundant. Canada and the U.S have (I think) 4 border disputes, yet it hasn't impacted their relationship, they are great economic partners. We should take their example and move forward.

[Firdousi]

There have probably been many threads and discussions about this topic but now I am writing this thread in such a way that we don't go off topic or resort to country bashing.
In my opinion , there there are five possible reasons as to why Afghans have hatred for Pakistan.I feel that these reasons are either not true or self-contradicting.I will list them down one by one and also give my logical reply to each one. You people can correct me if I am wrong and also share your thoughts.

1- Pakistan backed the anti-Soviet Mujahideen in the 1980s thus giving way to bloodshed and war.
My answer: The Soviets were massacring Afghans and the Afghan nation stood up against them. Pakistani support to mujahideen speeded up and aided the process of kicking the soviets out of Afghanistan.

2- Pakistan did not play a good role after Soviet withdrawal leading to civil war , anarchy , lawlessness and more deaths.
My answer: I really don't have any answer for this because I feel Afghans do have a point here.However, one point to be noted is that the civil war mainly took place in Kabul and Kandahar.The rest of the country was not affected by it.Rather they were living in relative peace , albeit with no effective central government.So I don't think that Afghans from areas other than Kabul and Kandahar will really hate Pakistan because of this reason.

3- Pakistan supported the Taliban in mid 90s onwards leading to their government, the Osama issue and the post-2001 war.
My answer: The Taliban was the only faction which promised peace and stability in that era.It also has be borne in mind that when the Taliban came to power, Afghanistan saw stability for the first time in many years.

4- Pakistan helped the U.S and NATO in their attack on Afghanistan in 2001 onwards.
My answer:Okay, I admit it that Pakistan did give airbases to U.S and helped them attack Afghanistan.But the Afghan nation as a whole (except the Taliban) welcomed the U.S and NATO forces, allowed the Western forces to establish a governnment and quickly became part of it. If Afghans hated the U.S/NATO so much , why did not join the Taliban resistance?Why are Afghans supporting the Afghan military which is NATO backed?
And why are Afghans blaming Pakistan for supporting Taliban?

5- Pakistan is supporting the Taliban.
My answer: I admit it that Pakistan is supporting, or at least , has a soft corner for the Taliban.But then when Pakistan supported U.S/NATO initially, you blamed them then also. So what do you (Afghans) want Pakistan to do?Should Pakistan support the invaders or the Taliban?

Because Pakistan supports terrorism in our country. Many Afghans also consider that half of Afghanistan is under Pakistani occupation. Afghans have also a strong tendency to blame everything on foreigners just like you Pakistanis like to blame all your miseries on India, Afghanistan, Israel and USA.

I seriously believe main reason behind hate toward Pakistan is racism. We Afghans like most of Central Asian and Middle Eastern people, are extremely racist people. We look down on dark skinned and mongol people. Since Pakistani for us means "dark dalkhor" that have always been our slaves we can't tolerate you having hegemonic plans toward our country.

Afghans will never change. We won't stop until we destroy your country even if we have to destroy once again our country in the process. Take it seriously. We are the same folk that the strongest empires ever (Brits, URSS and USA) couldn't submit. Believe me, buddy, you will be defeated too.

[Peacelove]

There have probably been many threads and discussions about this topic but now I am writing this thread in such a way that we don't go off topic or resort to country bashing.
In my opinion , there there are five possible reasons as to why Afghans have hatred for Pakistan.I feel that these reasons are either not true or self-contradicting.I will list them down one by one and also give my logical reply to each one. You people can correct me if I am wrong and also share your thoughts.

1- Pakistan backed the anti-Soviet Mujahideen in the 1980s thus giving way to bloodshed and war.
My answer: The Soviets were massacring Afghans and the Afghan nation stood up against them. Pakistani support to mujahideen speeded up and aided the process of kicking the soviets out of Afghanistan.

2- Pakistan did not play a good role after Soviet withdrawal leading to civil war , anarchy , lawlessness and more deaths.
My answer: I really don't have any answer for this because I feel Afghans do have a point here.However, one point to be noted is that the civil war mainly took place in Kabul and Kandahar.The rest of the country was not affected by it.Rather they were living in relative peace , albeit with no effective central government.So I don't think that Afghans from areas other than Kabul and Kandahar will really hate Pakistan because of this reason.

3- Pakistan supported the Taliban in mid 90s onwards leading to their government, the Osama issue and the post-2001 war.
My answer: The Taliban was the only faction which promised peace and stability in that era.It also has be borne in mind that when the Taliban came to power, Afghanistan saw stability for the first time in many years.

4- Pakistan helped the U.S and NATO in their attack on Afghanistan in 2001 onwards.
My answer:Okay, I admit it that Pakistan did give airbases to U.S and helped them attack Afghanistan.But the Afghan nation as a whole (except the Taliban) welcomed the U.S and NATO forces, allowed the Western forces to establish a governnment and quickly became part of it. If Afghans hated the U.S/NATO so much , why did not join the Taliban resistance?Why are Afghans supporting the Afghan military which is NATO backed?
And why are Afghans blaming Pakistan for supporting Taliban?

5- Pakistan is supporting the Taliban.
My answer: I admit it that Pakistan is supporting, or at least , has a soft corner for the Taliban.But then when Pakistan supported U.S/NATO initially, you blamed them then also. So what do you (Afghans) want Pakistan to do?Should Pakistan support the invaders or the Taliban?

Why afghans hated Pakistan in 1947, 1948, 1950's , 1960's...Why they were the only country to vote against pakistan in 1947 ,Why they were supporting insurgencies in Balochistan, attacking tribal areas continuously,raised the pakhtunistan flag at Pakistan embassy in Kabul and destroy it..This all started before whatever you write..So this hate precedes even before USSR invasion..There was no foreign intervention when they were doing all this childish games..

In the brutal nine-year conflict,of Soviet Invasion an estimated one million civilians were killed, as well as 90,000 Mujahideen fighters, 18,000 Afghan troops, and 14,500 Soviet soldiers (Page Not Found (44) - The Atlantic don't hate Russia but Hate pakistan..
US invaded there country and now they don't hate US but Pakistan.
The list is continue ...The truth is somewhere Firdousi has pointed out..It's a mixture of racism, false dreams, sense of superiority complex and now jealousy..They will destroy there own country to do something bad to Pakistan. Mentally there are still living in 600 or 700 years back and dream of Ghauri or Durrani Empire..For them it was shock that one night they sleep and in morning there was an another country at there neighbor

[Porus]

Many Afghans also consider that half of Afghanistan is under Pakistani occupation.

They're wrong. At best it's a quarter of 'their' territory. Baluchistan has as little to do with Afghanistan as it does with Pakistan. This is what Baloch nationalists themselves say.

If the main reason behind this hate is the Durand Line then let's face the facts. This territory is never gonna go to Afghanistan. Not because we Punjabis don't want it, but the vast majority of Pashtuns are okay with Pakistan. They along with the Sindhis and Bengalis voted to stay in Pakistan. They're more patriotic even than the Sindhis or present-day Mohajirs (Urdu speakers). So Pakhtunkhwa is not going anywhere, and it's certainly not going to a dirt poor country like Afghanistan.

[Peacelove]

They're wrong. At best it's a quarter of 'their' territory. Baluchistan has as little to do with Afghanistan as it does with Pakistan. This is what Baloch nationalists themselves say.

If the main reason behind this hate is the Durand Line then let's face the facts. This territory is never gonna go to Afghanistan. Not because we Punjabis don't want it, but the vast majority of Pashtuns are okay with Pakistan. They along with the Sindhis and Bengalis voted to stay in Pakistan. They're more patriotic even than the Sindhis or present-day Mohajirs (Urdu speakers). So Pakhtunkhwa is not going anywhere, and it's certainly not going to a dirt poor country like Afghanistan.

A little addition Pakhtuns "CHOOSE" to stay with Pakistan..No other province was allowed to do voting except here in KP..When it was chosen we seal our fate with Pakistan.. We are happy where we are..All nationalistic parties have died in KP like Asfandyar ..PMAP is no where.They can't hold what they have and dream of other side of border.Yesterday i listen to Rt general Ehsan from Mardan he made some very good valid points..According to him we don't need to take permission from Afghanistan just enforce the rules at border and they have no choice to oblige

[Porus]

A little addition Pakhtuns "CHOOSE" to stay with Pakistan..No other province was allowed to do voting except here in KP..When it was chosen we seal our fate with Pakistan.. We are happy where we are..All nationalistic parties have died in KP like Asfandyar ..PMAP is no where.They can't hold what they have and dream of other side of border.Yesterday i listen to Rt general Ehsan from Mardan he made some very good valid points..According to him we don't need to take permission from Afghanistan just enforce the rules at border and they have no choice to oblige

Look if the majority of Pashtuns wanted to join Afghanistan I wouldn't want them to stay in Pakistan. I'm of the view that the Federation should not be a prison for any ethnicity or religious group. It's good that you cleared this up.

I don't know how popular PMAP is, but the nationalist parties have more or less died out in KP according to my Pashtun friends. Nationalism was high when Ayub Khan implemented the 'one-unit' program, but now provinces more or less have the autonomy they need. Sindh was the first to throw its nationalism in the bin, Balochistan I suspect will slowly lose its nationalist ground depending on how the Army and the civilians deal with it.

Do you think most Pakistani Pashtuns accept the Durand line? What does this line mean for educated urban Pashtuns?

[Peacelove]

Look if the majority of Pashtuns wanted to join Afghanistan I wouldn't want them to stay in Pakistan. I'm of the view that the Federation should not be a prison for any ethnicity or religious group. It's good that you cleared this up.

I don't know how popular PMAP is, but the nationalist parties have more or less died out in KP according to my Pashtun friends. Nationalism was high when Ayub Khan implemented the 'one-unit' program, but now provinces more or less have the autonomy they need. Sindh was the first to throw its nationalism in the bin, Balochistan I suspect will slowly lose its nationalist ground depending on how the Army and the civilians deal with it.

Do you think most Pakistani Pashtuns accept the Durand line? What does this line mean for educated urban Pashtuns?

IK is undoubtedly the most respected leader and people love him in KP..Asfandyar and PMAP is no where near to PTI..
I don't know why this question is being raised again again. Do you know who guard the border or this durand line with Afghanistan
1) Khasadar Force ( 100 % composed of Tribal pashtuns)
2) FC -Majority pakhtuns are stationed there

If pakhtuns don't accept this border they could have revolt it easily and havoc that could have created is unstoppable..We are the second most in army after punjabis..Guess we died in Army protecting this land what we called pakistan..

This line is nothing common people doesn't care about it ..But then common people love pakistan ..They are in every field. Pakhtuns decided in 1947 with whom they wish to spend there lives..Having said that there is no issue with common afghans coming pak we welcome them they are our brother like us.
But Why we go or join afghanistan ..There is not a single reason to do that..Generations are born here getting education , employment, join forces ..Pakhtuns have been the Army chief of this country..
Have you not noticed the protest in KP when afghans fired at border..People in KP reacts the first..Pakistan is more dearer to us then Afghanistan..
I would even say if you give a chance 90 percent of afghans in afghanistan would prefer to join pakistan..They are tired of this ethnic rivalries..It looks good only in net or in dreams to prefer your ethnicity over country..

When afghans attack in 1960's Tribal pakhtuns for whatever reason were the first to resist..Had they have any love for afghanistan they could have welcome them with flowers..

These afghans now just jealous they want us to fight with punjabis or others for there sake..Why we react like them and made our country hell.They did not accept each other (Tajik , Pakhtun, Uzbek, Hazara eyc) and prefer there ethnicity over nation..

This is our Watan ...Every pakhtun sing " Pak sar zameen in School" ..I would like to say any limited no of nationlists ,kindly just protest outside school or force even in your own area not to sing pak anthem and he will come to know in his senses...To me they are confused ...They don't want to go afghanistan, afghanistan will not give them nationality, even they don't want to take there passport, they would love to call themselves from Pakistan in Europe and Middle east BUT they will praise afghanistan day and night..
When pakhtuns didn't listen to Bacha Khan baba in 1947 , the rest of the leaders no are no where near to him..

[Peshawer_222]

Because 'beghairat' Pakistan is a regional power and one of the next big things while 'ghairatmand' Afghanistan has nothing to show for except ruins and stoneage mentality . When Afghans see this they have resentment towards Pakistan .

[toughpashtun]

Because Pakistan supports terrorism in our country. Many Afghans also consider that half of Afghanistan is under Pakistani occupation. Afghans have also a strong tendency to blame everything on foreigners just like you Pakistanis like to blame all your miseries on India, Afghanistan, Israel and USA.

I seriously believe main reason behind hate toward Pakistan is racism. We Afghans like most of Central Asian and Middle Eastern people, are extremely racist people. We look down on dark skinned and mongol people. Since Pakistani for us means "dark dalkhor" that have always been our slaves we can't tolerate you having hegemonic plans toward our country.

Afghans will never change. We won't stop until we destroy your country even if we have to destroy once again our country in the process. Take it seriously. We are the same folk that the strongest empires ever (Brits, URSS and USA) couldn't submit. Believe me, buddy, you will be defeated too.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic or serious, but let me tell you this:
I know that you are not a Pashtun.
The Brits were defeated by the Afghan Pashtuns , not the Farsiwans.,Tajiks etc.
The Pashtun Taliban are the only ones fighting USA.Not you Tajiks or Farsiwans.
Yes, in the case of USSR, it was a joint effort by the whole Afghan nation with American,Pakistani , Saudi and others support.

[toughpashtun]

1. I don't know if Soviets were massacring Afghans or fighting against the rebels, but wasn't it the case that the government in Kabul actually wanted to be a part of the Soviet Union? If that's the case, then this wasn't an invasion. Also, Afghanistan was at the peak of economic progress during the Soviet Union, it's economic growth was higher than it had ever been. So I wouldn't say the Soviets were just there to belittle Afghans.

2. This is true. We did support Gulbuddin Hekmatyar against Dostum and Massoud. Although all of them were the same stockpile of Jihadists that the U.S, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan helped create, Gulbuddin was definitely a very brutal warlord. However, Pakistan wasn't the only country interfering, Iran was there, Saudi was there, India and Uzbekistan were also there. So it wasn't 'just' Pakistan.

3. Taliban seemed benign compared to maybe Dostum or Hekmatyar, but they banned girls schools, they persecuted Hindu and Sikh minorities, they had to wear orange hats to identify themselves, their graves were desecrated. Hazaras were being rounded up for being Shia, the Buddhas were destroyed. Taliban was a fascist regime. We supported them for selfish interests.

4 & 5. I think that's what TTP complain about, most educated Afghans don't want Pakistan to go against U.S and NATO forces. Amrullah Saleh constantly cites this example and says this won't benefit Pakistan in the long-run. It's harming ties with Afghanistan and more importantly the United States.

I think Pakistan should round-up each terrorist, whether they are anti-India, or anti-Afghanistan and put them before a firing squad. Only then will both the neighbours feel that we've moved on. We can't take a moral high ground if we have non-state actors roaming around freely in our country. It makes Indians insecure and more importantly, we as a nation can't see our own future there. Plus, if we keep supporting non-state actors, there will come a time when our neighbours won't tolerate it anymore. There are already suspicions that the BLA and other Baloch Separation outfits are being funded by India through Afghanistan. This is what happens when a state openly declares support for terrorists attacking an 'eternal enemy'.

Once we do that, we can open up trade, think about people to people connections, open borders and eventually I think disputes like Kashmir and the Durand Line will become redundant. Canada and the U.S have (I think) 4 border disputes, yet it hasn't impacted their relationship, they are great economic partners. We should take their example and move forward.

Your position can be summed up in that the main reason for Afghans hatred towards us is that they blame us for supporting the (Afghan) Taliban.

[toughpashtun]

Look if the majority of Pashtuns wanted to join Afghanistan I wouldn't want them to stay in Pakistan. I'm of the view that the Federation should not be a prison for any ethnicity or religious group. It's good that you cleared this up.

I don't know how popular PMAP is, but the nationalist parties have more or less died out in KP according to my Pashtun friends. Nationalism was high when Ayub Khan implemented the 'one-unit' program, but now provinces more or less have the autonomy they need. Sindh was the first to throw its nationalism in the bin, Balochistan I suspect will slowly lose its nationalist ground depending on how the Army and the civilians deal with it.

Do you think most Pakistani Pashtuns accept the Durand line? What does this line mean for educated urban Pashtuns?

I honestly feel that Pashtuns are the most patriotic ethnic group in Pakistan and they would not join Afghanistan.

[Loy Afghanistan]

I honestly feel that Pashtuns are the most patriotic ethnic group in Pakistan and they would not join Afghanistan.

I agree. Most of them are cowards, forgotten their roots, or simply being to much mix raced.

[Khostai]

Your position can be summed up in that the main reason for Afghans hatred towards us is that they blame us for supporting the (Afghan) Taliban.

True. Most Afghans will forgive the other things quite fast. Pakis only have to stop supporting taliban and this whole mess will be over. But I guess old habit die hard.

By the way Afghanistan is not the only country that deslikes Pakistan. I wonder why....

[Kakar-Wardak]

Borders always change but we need to be more pragmatic, we need to take over the media, military and political scene of punjabistan, punjabies are incompetent leaders.