A true story about Pashtun nationalism

[Azmal]

Shamlawar Khurasani--how you like them apples?(see below Firdousi post)
I don’t know if people like you are idealist or naive but the world is not what you think it is.. while your Khalqi father in 70s truly believed in redistribution of wealth and equality--Communism... Parchamis were only aiming to take power from Pashtun…and your Chinese Commies were busy liberalizing their economy--capitalist economy. While Gulo, and rest of Pashtun Islamist were working to achieve Mahdudi and Syed Qutb’s ideology--- political Islam, Massod was busy inking treaty and building for civil war. The point is ideology/believes should not be an end but a means to an end…and nationalist Pashtuns do NOT hate anyone especially not the Afghan minorities….. Preserving Pashto and Pashtun culture should to be confused as hatred or Xenophobia.



PS: considering recent politics of Afghanistan your nickname is greatest insults to Pushtun as people.

You are overestimating Pashtun strength. They are not strong at all. They are actually weak. Divided, they lack of leadership, they don't have friends or allies. Their culture is in decay in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pashtuns are considered as cheap labors, uneducated and tribal people all over the region. Nobody takes them seriously. Many of them have adopted Persian and Punjabi urban cultures.

Tajiks from Afghanistan and Tajiks from Afghanistan are different. Unfortunately Central Asian people have suffered Russian cultural supremacism. Fix yourselves first.

I do agree with you that current Afghan state is a travesty brit-madre country but the current status quo benefits Tajiks. Its a matter of time but we will success: Tajikism will be the only acceptable way of life in Afghanistan. Not even God can stop this process. Once we finish our job in Afghanistan and once we get rid of the evil Iranian regime there will be two strong Persianspeaker countries. Then we will go after Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. It will take a long time, may be decades, but we will make it.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Pakhpaloo, I don't know what your point is. I make a thread to tell a story. Why is this hurting your fake akhundzada behind? btw, how is that self study of Pashto working out for you, you wanna be? Any luck yet?

[Azmal]

Pakhpaloo, I don't know what your point is. I make a thread to tell a story. Why is this hurting your fake akhundzada behind? btw, how is that self study of Pashto working out for you, you wanna be? Any luck yet?

The point is just as your Khalqi father ****ed Afghanistan under pretest of Marxism while Parchamis comrade didn’t care a dot about ideology…you as a descendent of communist is repeating the same mistake under pretesting of Islamism. I’m just trying to help you, for when you realize what a self-conflicted mental-midget you evidently are, and then perhaps Khan Azmal Khan de Afghan’s well-meaning psychotherapy might help you become a better man, free of charge.

[Firdousi]

The point is just as your Khalqi father ****ed Afghanistan under pretest of Marxism while Parchamis comrade didn’t care a dot about ideology…you as a descendent of communist is repeating the same mistake under pretesting of Islamism. I’m just trying to help you, for when you realize what a self-conflicted mental-midget you evidently are, and then perhaps Khan Azmal Khan de Afghan’s well-meaning psychotherapy might help you become a better man, free of charge.

Come on, baiyan, take it easy. We are all brothers lol

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

I think Azmal is a very nice guy at heart and I don't want to stir animosity or conflict with him. But, I definitely don't share his outlook. I think we have to reach across the table and understand the legitimate grievances that other Ethnicities have in Afghanistan. That is if you really want a Nation and not an Ethnocentric Hegemony.

I don't separate between Lar O Bar, at the same time I accept that Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras share and are equal particpants. It's time to give up the notion of a "Pashtun" character of Afghanistan and concentrate on its Islamic character.

This has NEVER been done. Always it was "PASHTUN communists" vs. "Tajik/Farsiwan Coimmunists" or "Pashtun Mujahideen vs Tajik Mujahideen" or something. I'm not saying we have to erase who we are, but we need to reevaluate it and what it means and how to make our society work, Islam can be a divisive force but it's LESS divisive than Nationalism or Ethnocentrism. On the flipside its POTENTIAL to be Unifying far exceeds Ethnicity and Nationalism.

Let's concentrate on how we can forge a revitalized nation through that.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

The point is just as your Khalqi father ****ed Afghanistan under pretest of Marxism while Parchamis comrade didn’t care a dot about ideology…you as a descendent of communist is repeating the same mistake under pretesting of Islamism. I’m just trying to help you, for when you realize what a self-conflicted mental-midget you evidently are, and then perhaps Khan Azmal Khan de Afghan’s well-meaning psychotherapy might help you become a better man, free of charge.

You are akhundzada. That's not even a Pashtun tribe. And you can't speak Pashto because both your parents speak Farsi as you have stated before on Afghansite. afghan means Pashtun so you are not an Afghan. And I am not an Islamist. I don't impose any ideology by force on anyone. Just because I reject secular liberalism and democracy because it conflicts with my Islamic beliefs, it doesn't mean I am an Islamist. Islamists are ikhwani's and other militant groups who believe in enforcing their political views on people by force or deception.

You openly stated that you believe in secular liberal democracy and you are opposed to sharia and Islam in public life. That makes you no better than a communist. I don't know why it bothers you that my father was a Marxist. He tried to impose a western alien ideology on Afghans and you share same views about religion and Pashtunwali. Otherwise you wouldn't be objecting to the content of the story I've written here about nationalism.


In future when addressing me try to comment like a normal person. You may be accustomed by talking like you do due to your upbringing but you are not at home here. To talk like a decent person, Pakhpaloo.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

The Mohmadzai-royalist construct of Pashtun identity is something completely alien to Pashtuns.

The phony baloney narrative paints everything the Durrani-related clans did as the quintessence of Pashtun glory. It's a lie based on other lies based on even more lies.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

The Mohmadzai-royalist construct of Pashtun identity is something completely alien to Pashtuns.

The phony baloney narrative paints everything the Durrani-related clans did as the quintessence of Pashtun glory. It's a lie based on other lies based on even more lies.

Yet, most of their so called Pashtun rulers didn't even speak Pashto, married non-Pashtun women, suppressed other Pashtun tribes including fellow Abdali tribes like Noorzai & Ishaqzai and sold out to America, and prior to that to British India.

[Firdousi]

I think Azmal is a very nice guy at heart and I don't want to stir animosity or conflict with him. But, I definitely don't share his outlook. I think we have to reach across the table and understand the legitimate grievances that other Ethnicities have in Afghanistan. That is if you really want a Nation and not an Ethnocentric Hegemony.

I don't separate between Lar O Bar, at the same time I accept that Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras share and are equal particpants. It's time to give up the notion of a "Pashtun" character of Afghanistan and concentrate on its Islamic character.

This has NEVER been done. Always it was "PASHTUN communists" vs. "Tajik/Farsiwan Coimmunists" or "Pashtun Mujahideen vs Tajik Mujahideen" or something. I'm not saying we have to erase who we are, but we need to reevaluate it and what it means and how to make our society work, Islam can be a divisive force but it's LESS divisive than Nationalism or Ethnocentrism. On the flipside its POTENTIAL to be Unifying far exceeds Ethnicity and Nationalism.

Let's concentrate on how we can forge a revitalized nation through that.

We gotta develop some sort of institution or concept like the Western concept of "citizen", a neutral and non biased term. Ethnic and religious affiliation have brought nothing but disgrace to our country.

[Azmal]

I think Azmal is a very nice guy at heart and I don't want to stir animosity or conflict with him. But, I definitely don't share his outlook. I think we have to reach across the table and understand the legitimate grievances that other Ethnicities have in Afghanistan. That is if you really want a Nation and not an Ethnocentric Hegemony.

I don't separate between Lar O Bar, at the same time I accept that Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras share and are equal particpants. It's time to give up the notion of a "Pashtun" character of Afghanistan and concentrate on its Islamic character.

This has NEVER been done. Always it was "PASHTUN communists" vs. "Tajik/Farsiwan Coimmunists" or "Pashtun Mujahideen vs Tajik Mujahideen" or something. I'm not saying we have to erase who we are, but we need to reevaluate it and what it means and how to make our society work, Islam can be a divisive force but it's LESS divisive than Nationalism or Ethnocentrism. On the flipside its POTENTIAL to be Unifying far exceeds Ethnicity and Nationalism.

Let's concentrate on how we can forge a revitalized nation through that.

You can share your opinion...there is no conflict or animosity from my part. I think you are being unfair Mahmood,Pashtun ruler of Afghanistan has always defining Afghan national character with pluralism and cultural and linguistic diversity. Off course Pashtun being the major stakeholder have to get a lion’s share and hence we are liable to carry the burden of a joint struggle. No Pashtun group has ever desire for Pashtun nation state which will be a threat to the very national sovereignty of all ethnic groups.

[Azmal]

You are akhundzada. That's not even a Pashtun tribe. And you can't speak Pashto because both your parents speak Farsi as you have stated before on Afghansite. afghan means Pashtun so you are not an Afghan. And I am not an Islamist. I don't impose any ideology by force on anyone. Just because I reject secular liberalism and democracy because it conflicts with my Islamic beliefs, it doesn't mean I am an Islamist. Islamists are ikhwani's and other militant groups who believe in enforcing their political views on people by force or deception.

You openly stated that you believe in secular liberal democracy and you are opposed to sharia and Islam in public life. That makes you no better than a communist. I don't know why it bothers you that my father was a Marxist. He tried to impose a western alien ideology on Afghans and you share same views about religion and Pashtunwali. Otherwise you wouldn't be objecting to the content of the story I've written here about nationalism.


In future when addressing me try to comment like a normal person. You may be accustomed by talking like you do due to your upbringing but you are not at home here. To talk like a decent person, Pakhpaloo.

Will write later...time to run some errands.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

We gotta develop some sort of institution or concept like the Western concept of "citizen", a neutral and non biased term. Ethnic and religious affiliation have brought nothing but disgrace to our country.

I think if we appeal to people's personal interests, we can convince them to put their ideological issues aside.

We share three things with one another. Generally, our people have the same religion, live in the same region and have a shared history and cultural heritage.

If we can accept that nobody is going to move out of Afghanistan to leave the whole country for som other ethnicity and if we accept that by cooperating and striving for our common interests we can actually better our own circumstances, we may be able to bring stability.

People from the North and South depend on each other's resources and locality for trade and transport of goods. We live in a landlocked country and we need to secure trade and transit agreements that benefit us all.

If we focus on what we need from an economical perspective, we can then look at a construction that can make it possible.

Maybe we need to get rid of the whol notion of nation-state and nationality and treat Afghanistan as a pluralist society with various groups and ethnicities who are united with one another like the European Union.

The purpose of EU was initially to prevent future outbreak of war between warring nations. They tied their economies to one another to prevent that.

But irrational nationalism is against EU to the detriment of all European economy. Look at Brexit. Stupid nationalists have damaged their own economy and prosperity.

In Afghanistan, we need to learn from European mistakes. Nationalism is irrational and stupid. It damages our society and economy. We need common sense and rationality.

This is why I am against ethnocentrism. If a Hazara wants to worship graves or if a Tajik wants to call himself Afghanistani, that won't hurt me or my wallet. If we live in the same city, least what we can do is give each other living space. Other people are not going to accept my beliefs and I am not going to accept theirs. But that doesn't mean either they or I should move out. We can make arrangements to settle our differences and continue living there.

But this line of thought is seen with suspicion by people. It needs to be judged by its merits. People are easily offended and that's why nobody is even considering this.

[Azmal]

You are akhundzada. That's not even a Pashtun tribe. And you can't speak Pashto because both your parents speak Farsi as you have stated before on Afghansite. afghan means Pashtun so you are not an Afghan. And I am not an Islamist. I don't impose any ideology by force on anyone. Just because I reject secular liberalism and democracy because it conflicts with my Islamic beliefs, it doesn't mean I am an Islamist. Islamists are ikhwani's and other militant groups who believe in enforcing their political views on people by force or deception.

You openly stated that you believe in secular liberal democracy and you are opposed to sharia and Islam in public life. That makes you no better than a communist. I don't know why it bothers you that my father was a Marxist. He tried to impose a western alien ideology on Afghans and you share same views about religion and Pashtunwali. Otherwise you wouldn't be objecting to the content of the story I've written here about nationalism.


In future when addressing me try to comment like a normal person. You may be accustomed by talking like you do due to your upbringing but you are not at home here. To talk like a decent person, Pakhpaloo.

Tell me something, for how much longer did you expect the people of Afghanistan to continue suffering, while people like YOU experimented with every archaic and bankrupt ideology known to man? Please enlighten as to how Native is the Dewbandi—created by Indians or Wahabi ideology of Arabs are to Afghans? Or how you were busy working for “Native ideology” while burning those fat lips on weeds and enjoying visit to De Walletjes in liberal Holland?
Freedom and liberty does not exist in Marxism of your father or theocracy-- “native ideology” you preach. In Marxist controlled Afghanistan and other Kommies CCCP or China everyone was/is a slave to the apparatchik, including the people. Given this, only fools could compare it to liberal democracy. It is only in secular societies like USA or Holland where you reside--- people are respected as individuals first and foremost in the eyes of the law. Owing to the resilience of their civil maturity, I can read the Quran, go to the Mosque, criticize the leadership, enter University or seek ways to create wealth, while people in my name and my religion attack these people… If you are of sound mind and health, I don’t think I need to elaborate any further as to how utterly st.upid you sound while comparing Marxism of your father to secular democracy. As for as “alien ideology” if there is any freedom that Afghans cherish it is the right to practice their religion--- Islam, as they see fit. Whether they are Sufis or Shia or Hanafi ullama or casual practitioners, Afghans will not accept any limits on their ability to practice their religion. That's just reality..thus only when EVERYONE (including people called "Kafirs") are allowed to practice as they see fit, will you or any other Muslim be also guaranteed the right to practice their faith. Remember that the original arguments for the separation of religion and the state came from very religious people who witnessed the corrupting influence of politics with religions and vice versa…if you be freak and take honest look at the Afghan or any other Muslim countries “Islamic parties” or gov will show that the same thing holds for us.
Instead of being so defensive try to understand why I’m calling you out...your father already f-ed Afghanistan—specially Pashtuns upside down to the point we are still bleeding.

[Traveller]

Most pashtun nationalists are secular degenerates who are indoctrinated by Afghan Mellat, the communists, Weekh Zalmyan and other secular nationalist groups.

The reality of Pashtun identity is however very different from what these people claim.

Let me give you an example of what true Pashtun identity and pashto culture is about.

About 10 years ago, I was speaking to man who is responsible for the Jirga's of Pashtuns in the UK. He taught me a valuabble lesson about what it truly means to be a Pashtun.

Every now and then when there is a conflict among Pashtuns or when there is an issue which needs to be respolved, people from various tribes approach this man to solve their problems. When he organizes jirga's to resolve conflicts he invites people who are educated in various sciences of Sharia, people who are experienced men and have a certain status within the community and people who know the social mores of Pashtun society.

One of the men who participates in Jirga's he is heading is a Tajik from Shamali plains. For him, this is a no brainer. The man may not be an ethnic Pashtun but he is part of the same culture and heritage and he meets all the citeria of being an arbiter in a Jirga.

Yet, everytime secular nationalists want to resolve their issues object to the presence of a Tajik in a Jirga. The person who organizes the Jirga and hails from an Ahmadzai (Ghiljay) Koochi banground and is respected by all Pashtun tribes for being an authority in Pashtunwali is told by clean shaven smoking and drinking ecular nationalists that a non-Pashtu can't be an arbiter in a Jirga.

This man told me how he responded to these nationalists the first time they objected to the presence of a Tajik. He said to me that this tajik may not be a fellow Pashtun but he is a part of his heart and soul and hails from the same soil as he does and they share same religion, culture and history. He set that as a condition for the conflicting parties. Either they accept his arbiters in the Jirga or they can go and solve their problem some place else.

This man is still considered as an authority within Pashtun community and well respected by his people. Even non-pashtuns consult him for is advice in matters of religion and conflicts and disagreements.

he is the person who is preserving Pashtun culture and identity among the diaspora in UK.

Compare that to secular nationalist hot heads who have problem with fellow citizens of Afghanistan and yet can't even speak in Pashto properly.

The truth is, being a Pashtun is way different than what secular nationalists want to make you believe.

As a community, we are way more tolerant and respectful to people than these nationalists. The reason why I am so sttrongly opposed to nationalism is because it breaks up communities and divides people.

We should therefore avoid falling in their trap.

I just came across this. It's interesting how you guys have a jirga in the U.K. It would be cool if we had something like that or some national Pashtun associantion in the states.

[Kakar-Wardak]

All types of nationalism are a disease, nations states are European constructs, people can exist without borders and have done, we don't need foreign drawn lines to define us.