Western Liberalism and Western Imperialism

[Firdousi]

Whats your stance on these both concepts? Are Western Liberalism and Secular Humanism the ultimate cures for the world "diseases"? Are both Western Liberalism and Western Imperialism two sides of the same coin?

Please elaborate your answers.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Well before I comment, I think it should be noted that Western Liberalism is not equivalent to "The West", Western Liberalism is the ideological construct that

a.) Modern social and cultural landscape within Western society is the penultimate model of social progress and should be exported.

b.) the moral and social maxims are summarized as any activity or behavior is permissible so long as it is voluntary and does not interfere with the agency of anyone else.

This relates to secular humanism to a large degree, that any and all moral or ethical maxims are achievable by humans dictates alone, how those dictates are derived is not explained. Hypothetically impulse or social dysfunction could be drivers for these. Although the two concepts are not identical, one is used to validate the other.

Despite this, they could hypothetically be separated from the other as well. we can remodel secular humanism to conform with appropriate values, rather than blind liberalism. In my view, Western Liberalism does not cure any disease, but is a "disease" unto itself. Its model of human social management is one dimensional and lacks insight. In essence it is a cover for manners of social dysfunction.

This is plainly exhibited from the things it advocates and sanctions; trying to give social validation for homosexuality, rather than looking at it as a disorder that should be managed.. It licenses a breakdown of familial structure. it forbids polygamy but "open marriages" are legal. Enables and protects indecency. creates an environment where human drives are deviated and misdirected, by creating surrogate activities such as empty and to substitute our needs. Lends itself to exploitative institutions . dishonest financial practices, environmental decay and so on

The reason these arise is because it ignores the basic question; what are the nature of human drives and how should they be managed? In this analysis; simply having consent is not enough of a moral or ethical measure, a consensual decision may have dysfunctional origins and it's an imperative of society to regulate over that.

Imperialism in the past sought conquest by undermining the social order and balances to destabilize the societies they encountered. Take for example the British Opium Wars in China. Western Liberalism also acts to undermine the values and principles of these societies. in fact Western Liberalism is nothing new, imperialists applied these dysfunctional notions of behavior in the different places they entrenched themselves. In South East Asia, The French and Americans, fostered brothels and bars, in North Africa, the French would de-veil Muslim women, to be exploited for their entertainment as dancers and performers. French liberalisms even till this day tries to facilitate discord between genders.

This is detailed by numerous scholarship and not simply rumors. One notable reference to this can be found here. The Dynamism of the Veil: Veiling and Unveiling as a Means of Creating Identity in Algeria and France [eScholarship]

It's not hard to see that Western Liberalism is the Current frontier of Neo-imperialism.

[Firdousi]

Well before I comment, I think it should be noted that Western Liberalism is not equivalent to "The West", Western Liberalism is the ideological construct that

a.) Modern social and cultural landscape within Western society is the penultimate model of social progress and should be exported.

b.) the moral and social maxims are summarized as any activity or behavior is permissible so long as it is voluntary and does not interfere with the agency of anyone else.

This relates to secular humanism to a large degree, that any and all moral or ethical maxims are achievable by humans dictates alone, how those dictates are derived is not explained. Hypothetically impulse or social dysfunction could be drivers for these. Although the two concepts are not identical, one is used to validate the other.

Despite this, they could hypothetically be separated from the other as well. we can remodel secular humanism to conform with appropriate values, rather than blind liberalism. In my view, Western Liberalism does not cure any disease, but is a "disease" unto itself. Its model of human social management is one dimensional and lacks insight. In essence it is a cover for manners of social dysfunction.

This is plainly exhibited from the things it advocates and sanctions; trying to give social validation for homosexuality, rather than looking at it as a disorder that should be managed.. It licenses a breakdown of familial structure. it forbids polygamy but "open marriages" are legal. Enables and protects indecency. creates an environment where human drives are deviated and misdirected, by creating surrogate activities such as empty and to substitute our needs. Lends itself to exploitative institutions . dishonest financial practices, environmental decay and so on

The reason these arise is because it ignores the basic question; what are the nature of human drives and how should they be managed? In this analysis; simply having consent is not enough of a moral or ethical measure, a consensual decision may have dysfunctional origins and it's an imperative of society to regulate over that.

Imperialism in the past sought conquest by undermining the social order and balances to destabilize the societies they encountered. Take for example the British Opium Wars in China. Western Liberalism also acts to undermine the values and principles of these societies. in fact Western Liberalism is nothing new, imperialists applied these dysfunctional notions of behavior in the different places they entrenched themselves. In South East Asia, The French and Americans, fostered brothels and bars, in North Africa, the French would de-veil Muslim women, to be exploited for their entertainment as dancers and performers. French liberalisms even till this day tries to facilitate discord between genders.

This is detailed by numerous scholarship and not simply rumors. One notable reference to this can be found here. The Dynamism of the Veil: Veiling and Unveiling as a Means of Creating Identity in Algeria and France [eScholarship]

It's not hard to see that Western Liberalism is the Current frontier of Neo-imperialism.

Iblis you must acknowledge that Western Liberalism has done huge positive contributions to the mankind. Our world is now much better place to live in that it was a century ago thanks to West. Human Rights and human dignity are respected more in the West than in any other place in the world. If Muslims reject Liberalism.. why so many of them are even ready to put their lives in risk just in order to reach Western soil?

In my opinion the biggest flaw in Western Liberalism is how it promotes some wrong moral values: most of Europeans are weak effeminate people. Women want to be strong like men and men want to be sensitive like women. People lack of self-respect. They have no limits. They don't care about their families. Nor about their identity. All is limited to "my life my rules". I really despise Western individualism (not a big fan of Eastern collectivism either).

But I must say Western Liberalism has also a bright side: it promotes tolerance, respect and knowledge. In my opinion we Muslims did not find yet a suitable system for our own identity and set of values. Western liberalism will never work in the Islamic World.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Sure Firdousi, as we discussed before, this is a phenomena called dialectics. Not to stride on any Marxian playbook.

But what I disagree on is how much of it was really the ideology of Western Liberalism vs. simply technology making laborious tasks easier? This is a crucial question because if that's the case, we can divorce the benefits of the West's growth from its cultural zeitgeist. Separate wheat from chaff , kernel from husk.

The social and moral shortcomings of the West as you rightly pointed out in my own words can be summarized as being out of balance. No understanding of the contrasts of overlap and distinction. hence this gender confusion and emsculation and defeminization, you see going on.

Brother, as for an Islamic solution, I seldom if ever argue romanticizing the past, but there are definitely gleaming gems we can draw inspiration from. I highly recommend examining the Mu'tazilah thinkers of before. It may give a framework for a solution that we all seek.

[Firdousi]

Sure Firdousi, as we discussed before, this is a phenomena called dialectics. Not to stride on any Marxian playbook.

But what I disagree on is how much of it was really the ideology of Western Liberalism vs. simply technology making laborious tasks easier? This is a crucial question because if that's the case, we can divorce the benefits of the West's growth from its cultural zeitgeist. Separate wheat from chaff , kernel from husk.

The social and moral shortcomings of the West as you rightly pointed out in my own words can be summarized as being out of balance. No understanding of the contrasts of overlap and distinction. hence this gender confusion and emsculation and defeminization, you see going on.

Brother, as for an Islamic solution, I seldom if ever argue romanticizing the past, but there are definitely gleaming gems we can draw inspiration from. I highly recommend examining the Mu'tazilah thinkers of before. It may give a framework for a solution that we all seek.

I think you are mistaking "modernization" and "Westernization" brother. I did not mean just modern phones and airplanes. When I said "good Western things" I meant Human Rights, strong and stable political/civil institutions,.. and so on. Honestly Western achievements when it comes to science and technology are not just coincidence. You need freedom of opinion and information, free will,.. in order to reach such achievements.

Liberalism is digging the grave of the West. This people are bringing misery and disgrace upon themselves! Most of them are so cowards, selfish and weak that they are not even willing to bring two f*cking kids in order to keep their civilization alive. They rather prefer to "follow their fake dreams" and may be have a kid at the age of 40.

Western civilization won't survive too long.

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Well I grasped what you meant, my hypothesis is that people often confuse the impact of technology and its effects as change in consciousness and human rights and human values. It was technology that allowed ease in the economic links that may have been responsible for many injustices.

But the West doesn't seem to me a legitimate model of rights really. They used to cut off people's thumbs not long ago, to ensure people stay dependent on them and couldn't grow their own rice, their own resources, make their own textiles. Some of the most egregious abuses were done by the West in their colonies. Sure they stopped Sati, but how many people did sati effect statistically? They'd send people to the Caribbean as indentured labor. The people of Guyana, Trinidad & Tobago are evidence of their egregious acts.

I'm not saying that certain events which expanded rights never happened; but whether it was their new born sense of humanity or just the residual effect of technology progressing which is what's on debate. Imagine if mass production technology and automation didn't advance, they'd still be lording the colonies instead of creating a bunch of subservient states.

For the sake of argument, let's suppose it is their Social Philosophy which was in debt to everything, or even most things. Ok maybe for a period it allowed people greater opportunity to express new ideas and test them, granting science the opportunity to sediment and develop a foundation. But now the scientific and technological enterprise functions within its own sphere, there's no need for general social lenience to help science. in fact science has refined itself with a very meticulous set of protocols completely absolved of other social underpinnings.

In fact now, it is through science that the facilities for allowing greater social control is now in place. How, it is directed is simply based on the cultural theory driving it. We can replace different drivers for the vehicle.

[Firdousi]

Well I grasped what you meant, my hypothesis is that people often confuse the impact of technology and its effects as change in consciousness and human rights and human values. It was technology that allowed ease in the economic links that may have been responsible for many injustices.

But the West doesn't seem to me a legitimate model of rights really. They used to cut off people's thumbs not long ago, to ensure people stay dependent on them and couldn't grow their own rice, their own resources, make their own textiles. Some of the most egregious abuses were done by the West in their colonies. Sure they stopped Sati, but how many people did sati effect statistically? They'd send people to the Caribbean as indentured labor. The people of Guyana, Trinidad & Tobago are evidence of their egregious acts.

I'm not saying that certain events which expanded rights never happened; but whether it was their new born sense of humanity or just the residual effect of technology progressing which is what's on debate. Imagine if mass production technology and automation didn't advance, they'd still be lording the colonies instead of creating a bunch of subservient states.

For the sake of argument, let's suppose it is their Social Philosophy which was in debt to everything, or even most things. Ok maybe for a period it allowed people greater opportunity to express new ideas and test them, granting science the opportunity to sediment and develop a foundation. But now the scientific and technological enterprise functions within its own sphere, there's no need for general social lenience to help science. in fact science has refined itself with a very meticulous set of protocols completely absolved of other social underpinnings.

In fact now, it is through science that the facilities for allowing greater social control is now in place. How, it is directed is simply based on the cultural theory driving it. We can replace different drivers for the vehicle.

Honestly speaking I do believe West has changed, specially after the end of colonization. Despite all the hypocrisy and double standards right now the Western civilization is "the best" one or "the less bad" on in the world.

I must also point out that the reality forced them to change. West is in decay. They don't have the military nor the economic (except USA, European countries are pretty weak) power in order to impose their will on the rest of world. So they have strengthen their "soft power": people from every country around the globe try to emulate Western culture and Western ways.

But at the end of the day, once again, West is falling apart. There is a raise of nationalism and a pretty obvious liberal crisis. After American failure in the Middle East, Western foreign policy and their aggressive expansionism is coming to an end. They will little by little become more and more isolated. You just look at a map: Europe got a weak geoestrategic location. They are all surrounded by hostile neighbors: Russia in the east and Muslims in the south. Both are aggressive people while Europeans are damn effeminate.

[Karachi]

Whats your stance on these both concepts? Are Western Liberalism and Secular Humanism the ultimate cures for the world "diseases"? Are both Western Liberalism and Western Imperialism two sides of the same coin?

Please elaborate your answers.

Whatever western systems maybe, they are much much much better then your Sharia. Go live understand ISIS you moron if you like Sharia so much. Get the **** out of the west.

I am actually hoping people Donald Trump get elected, so they kick all you extremists out

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

^^^^^^

[Karachi]

^^^^^^

um no, only insane people would want something like Sharia law. The Sharia Law test proposed by the US politician yesterday is the best Idea every to kick out all extremists

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Following in the foot steps of your ancestors I see, eh Desi Baba?

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Karachi in action. ahaaaan jeeee Jennifer ma'am

[Iblis_Efreetzai]

Honestly speaking I do believe West has changed, specially after the end of colonization. Despite all the hypocrisy and double standards right now the Western civilization is "the best" one or "the less bad" on in the world.

I must also point out that the reality forced them to change. West is in decay. They don't have the military nor the economic (except USA, European countries are pretty weak) power in order to impose their will on the rest of world. So they have strengthen their "soft power": people from every country around the globe try to emulate Western culture and Western ways.

But at the end of the day, once again, West is falling apart. There is a raise of nationalism and a pretty obvious liberal crisis. After American failure in the Middle East, Western foreign policy and their aggressive expansionism is coming to an end. They will little by little become more and more isolated. You just look at a map: Europe got a weak geoestrategic location. They are all surrounded by hostile neighbors: Russia in the east and Muslims in the south. Both are aggressive people while Europeans are damn effeminate.

You might be right to some degree, I'm not claiming that there aren't positive virtues of the West. I mean among my heroes are Euler, Gauss, Riemann and Milnor as well as Ibn Haytham, Shamil Daghestani and Mansur Al-Hallaj

I agree with you Europe is waning and the West overall is waning., but we have to be prepared for that moment as well. The West is banking on soft power, encouraging its cultural narrative abroad.

That Qandeel Baloch lady who was just killed, named Sunny Leone as one of her role models. that may seem insignificant, but go to wikipedia and look up both women and you'll understand what I mean.

The dysfunctional soft power has a domino effect which has a root system, within the social and cultural framework of Western Liberalism. But we should not take the idea that it is "Soft Power" lightly, soft power is the worst because it is a mental syndrome, it eats at the consciousness. My point is we should look at this from all fronts. Social, Cultural , Intellectual, and all else.

Having a critical stance against Western Liberalism is beneficial for everyone, even Westerners; they'll learn to be men again.

[Karachi]

Idiot again, just because I dont want Sharia, how is this serving westerners? Call me Indian instead or even hindu, at least that would make sense, we never had sharia in India

[Firdousi]

Whatever western systems maybe, they are much much much better then your Sharia. Go live understand ISIS you moron if you like Sharia so much. Get the **** out of the west.

I am actually hoping people Donald Trump get elected, so they kick all you extremists out

You coward, stop quoting me. I don't care about your inferiority complex. I don't live in the West nor I support Sharia. I have several times said that I want a system based on Islamic values and that at the same time respects human dignity. I will never support Western Liberalism basically because our values are way different than theirs. You will never understand this because you are a coward self hater idless sold out tw*t lol