Taliban chief Mullah Mohammad Omar was killed two years ago

[khushal]

It also shows that Taliban were never in conflict with the U.S. and that the OBL issue was just played up for public eyes. Hence conspiracy. Leading to the notion that the Taliban just a apparatus from Western powers.

We already covered this. No one is saying that the taliban were in confliict with the US. The issue were the sanctuaries for those groups.

They didn't flatly refuse, they just wanted "proof"

Everyone knew they had no proof. They were even making false videos of OBL. Thats how desperate they were. No proof = refusal

As Randolph85 said, It's astonishing that if America knew about Pakistan's control and influence over the Taliban that they never went after Pakistan, some sort of deal would have been struck. But as far as conspiracy theories go, The Taliban would have been a manufactured phenomena complete with played out mythologies and characters.
.

I already explained the Pakistan US relationship with Realism Theory. Pakistan and the US both knew that the current Paksitan is in US interests so they would never go after it. The US made a gamble that they could create a viable afghan gov with pakistani supply lines in conflict with Pakistan and Paksitan made a gamble that they could not even with their help.

Afghanistan and paksitan is like one country. The question is who will influence the other. Since paksitan has access to the sea which equals access to world markets and is 8 times larger in population than afghanistan, it is logical to assume that paksitan will have leverage. The thing is that Afghanistan and paksitan in conflict with each other could not work since pakistan could always blockade afghanistan. In this regard, afghanistan could never be viable against paksitan. northern routes dont work and are too costly. Paksitan knew this and they knew that the US would fail.

There was no secrete agreement. you guys think the US has unlimited power and can do what ever it wants. Everyone has limitations.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

The fact there was never any genuine conflict is a very important condition to overlook, whether you believe you covered it or not. It indicate there was a large degree of complicity between U.S. policy and the Taliban. Which makes sense since the CIA and ISI have had a long relationship, the fact that they didn't go after Pakistan despite Pakistan's direct involvement with the Taliban indicates a plan was already in action between the nexus.

And no proof is not refusal, asking for proof is tacitly saying America may have legitimate reasons for being there. This is key because it lent into validating an invasion.

Realism theory doesn't predict the potential consequences that would have happened later, because if Pakistan, destabled and were worried about the other radical groups. It would end up as India's problem and India would use scorched Earth policy on Pakistan, in Fact If Pakistan were a target they'd have relations with India and considering India's cheap labor, cheap access to the sea could be acquired too.

Therefore Realism Theory would actually have targeted Pakistan, unless there were other benefits it would have in cahoots. In my explanation would mimic Realism Theory more congruently than yours considering the role of India.

[khushal]

The fact there was never any genuine conflict is a very important condition to overlook, whether you believe you covered it or not. It indicate there was a large degree of complicity between U.S. policy and the Taliban. Which makes sense since the CIA and ISI have had a long relationship, the fact that they didn't go after Pakistan despite Pakistan's direct involvement with the Taliban indicates a plan was already in action between the nexus.

You make no sense. No conflict does not mean indication of complicity. Japan and north korea had no conflict with the taliban, that does not make them complicit.
I already explained why they did not go after pakistan.

And no proof is not refusal, asking for proof is tacitly saying America may have legitimate reasons for being there. This is key because it lent into validating an invasion.

Asking for proof means if the accusers do not provide it, then the invasion becomes illegal which is why most scholars agree that the invasion was illegal. What your implying iis that if party A accuses Party B of something and Party B asks for proof, then Party A has the legal and moral right to attack. Your going into insanity mode here my friend.

Realism theory doesn't predict the potential consequences that would have happened later, because if Pakistan, destabled and were worried about the other radical groups. It would end up as India's problem and India would use scorched Earth policy on Pakistan, in Fact If Pakistan were a target they'd have relations with India and considering India's cheap labor, cheap access to the sea could be acquired too.

Therefore Realism Theory would actually have targeted Pakistan, unless there were other benefits it would have in cahoots. In my explanation would mimic Realism Theory more congruently than yours considering the role of India.

Ralism theory is centered on four main propositions:

1. The international system is anarchic.
No actor exists above states, capable of regulating their interactions; states must arrive at relations with other states on their own, rather than it being dictated to them by some higher controlling entity.
The international system exists in a state of constant antagonism

2. States are the most important actors.

3. All states within the system are unitary, rational actors
States tend to pursue self-interest.
Groups strive to attain as many resources as possible

4. The primary concern of all states is survival.
States build up military to survive,

According to the Theory, Pakistan as a nation state were to follow those principles and the US as a hegemonic power would asses on how to control the particular Nation state's growing influence but at the same time not destroy the nation state since the nation state as it was created under the international system in 1947 served the hegemonic order.

So, no, Pakistan would not be a target, the goal would be to create an Afghan gov that would be in conflict with paksitan. Afghanistan would act like a containment agency for pakistan just like pakistan serves as a containment agency for India or how Saddam was propped up to serve as a containment agency for Iran at the time.
Basically divide and rule.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

There's no reason to ask for proof if you already know there's no proof to begin with. But let's assume your analysis is valid, They asked for proof. Evenn then there's nothing that suggests they knew or didn't know. You're interpolating that. It's not any more "rational" an Hypothesis than mine is. In fact you're granted Taliban many extra concessions on their behalf to exonerate them. That's fine but doesn't make version an "answer" to mine. You're essentially doing what I'm doing, making a pure interpretation of events. So "what doesn't make sense" is actually stemming from certain assumptions you take for granted as being factual despite the fact neither of us really know, yet you compare things to those as if they're given Truth, which they are not.

The lack of conflict does indicate complicity since United States clearly had awareness and correspondence in the area It wasn't like the State Dept. were making dossiers about Rwanda which was going on about the same time. Yet we know dossiers on Afghanistan & the Taliban exist. This implies a keen interest in Taliban activity .....question is why? My suggestion is complicity, and my validation is because the ISI-CIA partnership for their interests.Much of your reasons "why not" are actually what I'd call "Surface Drama" which plays into my Conspiracy Theorist approach. I'm not claiming any of this is true, but Fitting things into what we know. it could be that Mullah Umar never existed and those who claim he exist or met him are just participants in the scam. I mean everyone who claims to have met him are under strict supervision. That's telling.

About Realism Theory: This would still work in favor that U.S. would have targeted Pakistan if there was no collusion going on. Pakistan would have in its eyes been looking after its survival and interests, America would have co-opted India and became their military ally. So putting Pakistan under threat would have been no problem. India would just replace Pakistan as its exclusive servants.You're really not giving any reason why it'd preserve Pakistan, If Pakistan didn't offer any other benefits, This is not consistent with the description of Realism Theory you depicted here.

[Kushan Prince]

And the rumours of him being dead is that he died "peacefully" in a hospital in Karachi. What a joke!

Another good reason not to trust Pakistan at all since these mofos are only good at sheltering terrorists. Personally, i don't think he is dead, but being sheltered in Pakistan. The Afghan government is incompetent, just a mouthpiece for America.

[khushal]

There's no reason to ask for proof if you already know there's no proof to begin with. But let's assume your analysis is valid, They asked for proof. Evenn then there's nothing that suggests they knew or didn't know. You're interpolating that. It's not any more "rational" an Hypothesis than mine is. In fact you're granted Taliban many extra concessions on their behalf to exonerate them. That's fine but doesn't make version an "answer" to mine. You're essentially doing what I'm doing, making a pure interpretation of events. So "what doesn't make sense" is actually stemming from certain assumptions you take for granted as being factual despite the fact neither of us really know, yet you compare things to those as if they're given Truth, which they are not.

Claims and allegation always require proof.

The lack of conflict does indicate complicity since United States clearly had awareness and correspondence in the area It wasn't like the State Dept. were making dossiers about Rwanda which was going on about the same time. Yet we know dossiers on Afghanistan & the Taliban exist. This implies a keen interest in Taliban activity .....question is why? My suggestion is complicity, and my validation is because the ISI-CIA partnership for their interests.Much of your reasons "why not" are actually what I'd call "Surface Drama" which plays into my Conspiracy Theorist approach. I'm not claiming any of this is true, but Fitting things into what we know. it could be that Mullah Umar never existed and those who claim he exist or met him are just participants in the scam. I mean everyone who claims to have met him are under strict supervision. That's telling.

This is all whacky thoughts that have no merit. Thousands of people are in on the conspiracy.

About Realism Theory: This would still work in favor that U.S. would have targeted Pakistan if there was no collusion going on. Pakistan would have in its eyes been looking after its survival and interests, America would have co-opted India and became their military ally. So putting Pakistan under threat would have been no problem. India would just replace Pakistan as its exclusive servants.You're really not giving any reason why it'd preserve Pakistan, If Pakistan didn't offer any other benefits, This is not consistent with the description of Realism Theory you depicted here.

This tells us that you don't understand Realism theory. If India is allowed to swallows Pakistan, then why did the hegemonic power create Pakistan in the first place and save it from 3 India/Pak wars and gives it billions in aid even though they support the Taliban who kill US soldiers in Afghanistan. The purpose of Pakistan is to keep south Asia and central Asia from creating a bloc that would counter the hegemonic order. The newly created afghan gov purpose is to contain Pakistan but not to destroy it. This is the 4th time I am giving you a reason why the preservation of pakistan is important to the hegemonic order.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

You just went from saying they knew it wasn't true to saying claims require proof. No matter which angle you go with ...prior knowledge of falsity doesn't require proof since knowledge implies verification. If you mean to say they had a gut instinct, well that's not knowledge. That right there is your major sticking point. Either the Taliban didn't know and and hence needed evidence or the Taliban knew and didn't need it..The bizarre twist is that even in this case having such knowledge suggests Taliban "actors" were in collusion. So in either situation it points to a nexus headed by the U.S.

Call it whacky ...but calling it whacky doesn't invalidate it. It is after all intended to be interpolation only im.doing it deliberately. Thousands of people wouldn't need to be in on it. Rank & file Taliban who never even met Mullah Umar are probably not in on it.

I would say that my description is a more accurate understanding of Realism Theory. To answer your question, Pakistan vs. India was a post colonial way to maintain the right degree of diversion . Maintain divide and rule. Keeping South Asia fragmented but dependent lends to hegemony.

See right there, Realism.

[Azmal]

Without treating the struggles of the Afghan people as a game. If we're going to delve into a covert Ops/conspiratorial discourse about the evolving events of Afghanistan, especially concentrated over the last 20 years. Then here's my "hypothesis" ....and the quotes are because I use this term loosely. This is neither rigorous nor considering all the evidence but just everything I can think of at the moment.


OK.......America's intervention in Afghanistan is more far reaching than we give it credit. Quite probably dating back to te 1950's-60's during the height of the Cold War.

American intelligence spent millions, possibly billions researching the cultural and historical landscape of Afghanistan and especially the Pashtun tribes.

Is it not a peculiar coincidence, that the Taliban are lead by a HOTAK, while the replacement given official endorsement by the U.S. is a POPALZAI , a branch of the Sadozai clan, who were historic rivals and also had a member of its clan act as a political stooge for the British, just as Karzai was for the Americans.

Replaying both the historic rivalry of "ghilzai vs. sadozai" as well as British imperial history, to agitate the sentiments of Afghans from all spectra. Would it then not be relevant to suggest that this itself has been orchestrated, that the "figurehead" of the Taliban is a mythologized character manufactured by the U.S. intelligence cadre and that Karzai was merely an instrument to exploit, with the entire story line of supposedly "meeting" this fictional Mullah Umar, while possessing the pedigree to boot.

For what ends? Hegemony at all costs , but why Afghanistan, a land with few in the way of resources, Maybe some copper, a gas pipeline , lapis lazuli, but asides from that nothing. Maybe there is more to what's in Afghanistan than we realize.

Now that is appraising the good ole US of A to God status…but then considering the Heartland Theory…ultimate aim is control of ‘the great pivot’ so Afghanistan is a path way towards that not an objective itself.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

More like devil like status lol

[Azmal]

More like devil like status lol

ahahhah I think it is more half and half...our culture/people are equally at fault.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

ahahhah I think it is more half and half...our culture/people are equally at fault.

I don't know about equally at fault, but we definitely have a great share of the blame, our naivety, also our massive ego, always reacting without thinking.

Then again, this also requires a great deal of sophistication and worldly knowledge, most people didn't know any better?

[Kushan Prince]

Lol reading this Arabized Yemeni ghools comment (who i have on block but somebody quoted) really irks me on how wrong he is. This fool thinks thinks that its about "Hotak and Popalzai" again trying to apply a disunity thesis among different tribes. AND to top it all of, this camel shagging gool thinks that Afghanistan has no recourses for the Americans to stay. Really? is that why Afghanistan is projected to have over 1 billions worth of minerals like, Gold, Diamonds and even natural energy like Lithium? Is that why general Campbell wants permanent army bases after U.S. pullout?

This is why i don't take anything this guy says seriously or even as factual on this forum, he is wrong in everything from history to politics.

[Insight]

Lol reading this Arabized Yemeni ghools comment (who i have on block but somebody quoted) really irks me on how wrong he is. This fool thinks thinks that its about "Hotak and Popalzai" again trying to apply a disunity thesis among different tribes. AND to top it all of, this camel shagging gool thinks that Afghanistan has no recourses for the Americans to stay. Really? is that why Afghanistan is projected to have over 1 billions worth of minerals like, Gold, Diamonds and even natural energy like Lithium? Is that why general Campbell wants permanent army bases after U.S. pullout?

This is why i don't take anything this guy says seriously or even as factual on this forum, he is wrong in everything from history to politics.

How many times does the US have to say they are leaving? You think McCain, white neocon warhawk is just kidding when he makes his anger at Obama's decision known? Its all a theatrical play!!

Obama is just going to lie about a full US withdrawal? How come when Obama signed SPA in 2012, he was not lying then according to those of your opinion like Toramana and Bengal_Tiger. Suddenly when he says it will be a full US withdrawal, he is now lying???

LOL @ being selective!!! For 14 years, the US has been unable to tap into those minerals

[Friends of Baloch]

A good day for all except stinking pakis

Death to napakistan!

[khushal]

Amrullah salah is lying through his teeth. IF the Pakis communicated the death of mullah omar to the afghan delegation, then why did Ashraf Ghani thanked mullah omar after the meetings. They did not know anything.

http://www.khaama.com/president-ghani-thanks-mullah-omar-for-his-eid-message-1300

The first time news surfaced that Mullah Omar was dead was when a faction of the Taliban reported that Mansoor killed Omar. The peace talks forced taliban commanders question the legitimacy of the Eid Al Fitr message where Omar blessed the peace talks and afterwards Ashraf Ghani thanks him for it and its where they themselves(a faction oof the Taliban) announced the death of Omar.