Walking Away or Ignoring Afghanistan is not an Option for India

[Azmal]

You're making the argument I used to make a long time ago. But I found out that this claim is incorrect because firstly

the name Shansaabani is not in any Pashto literature or even translatable into Pashto. The root word wishnasp has no equivalent in Pashto.

Now Ghor does sound a lot like "Ghar" in Pashto, but Ghor refers to a different word meaning than Ghar. In Farsi Ghor means depth. Now perhaps Ghor and Ghar are related words in the Indo-European sense, but they aren't linguistically the same when it comes to Pashto and Farsi. There's no such word as "Ghor" in Pashto. There is Ghorzang, and there is Ghar, but no Ghor.

Lastly the name "Suri", there are Suris who are Ghilzai, but The name Suri is not exclusively Pashtun nor any indicator of Pashtun ancestry in and of itself.


There's no evidence that the Shansabani Suris are the Ghilzai Suris. Thus this cannot be a legitimate claim.

According to Pashto book “Pukhtana da tareeh pa rana ke” Sher Shah Suri states "I wish to shift the people of Ghor to India (plains)" in this reference by ghor he means Afghanistan(Pashtonistan). Puta Khazana mentions Amir karor, Malak ya gharsheen, Asad soori were the very first Pashto poets from Ghor. The fact that a Turkish Farsi speaker needed a translator to communicate with them proves they did not speak Farsi nor Turkish.

[khushal]

What does "his women" have to do with him?

everything

[Brown Skinned Savage]

According to Pashto book “Pukhtana da tareeh pa rana ke” Sher Shah Suri states "I wish to shift the people of Ghor to India (plains)" in this reference by ghor he means Afghanistan(Pashtonistan). Puta Khazana mentions Amir karor, Malak ya gharsheen, Asad soori were the very first Pashto poets from Ghor. The fact that a Turkish Farsi speaker needed a translator to communicate with them proves they did not speak Farsi nor Turkish.

You mean Pukhtana Tarikh pa Rarnna Ki, Pashtuns in the Light of History. By Syed Bahadur Kakakhel? Sher Shah Suri was certainly Pashtun, but what is the author's source for the statement? And secondly is the word being used as "Ghor" or "Ghar" because if it's "Ghar" ....it makes more sense because, Ghar refers to higher elevation terrain, to lower elevation, plains.

Do you have the actual word for word Pashto statement available?

Pata Khizana uses a style of Pashto which existed during the 16th-17th Century, The Ghorids were 10th Century. If those poets were from Ghor they'd have a much more archaic form of Pashto.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

So why did they need translators then?

Who need translators from who?

[khushal]

Who need translators from who?

Azmal said this:

3-Baihaqi who is considered as the most famous historian of the Ghaznavid era had written in page 117 that "Sultan Massud leaves for (jaroos ghoor) “jai darmeshi paat”... and sends his learned companion with two people from Ghor as interpreter between this person and the people of that region.

If they needed interpreters, then what language did they speak.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Azmal said this:


If they needed interpreters, then what language did they speak.

Well if their name is any indicator it seems they spoke a Middle Persian dialect. So it would make sense since Middle Persian is not mutually intelligible with Dari that was spoken at the Ghaznawids.

[khushal]

Well if their name is any indicator it seems they spoke a Middle Persian dialect. So it would make sense since Middle Persian is not mutually intelligible with Dari that was spoken at the Ghaznawids.

The different dialects of farsi that existed at the time would have been able to understand each other especially of "learned men" as the author puts it. Just like farsiwan in Iran, in azarbajan, in afghanistan, in tajikistan and even in armenia are going to understand each other. They would not need interpreters especially if they are of learned men.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Well Middle Persian is much older than Dari, I wouldn't classify it as "Farsi" it's just used as a Term by linguists. But we can find mutual intelligibility between Dari of the 10th century and Dari now, even though changes have happened, structurally they're the same. But Middle Persian would not necessarily be intelligible to a Dari of the 10th century.

About being learned men, Even Learned men don't know everything.

[khushal]

You're making the argument I used to make a long time ago. But I found out that this claim is incorrect because firstly

the name Shansaabani is not in any Pashto literature or even translatable into Pashto. The root word wishnasp has no equivalent in Pashto.

Now Ghor does sound a lot like "Ghar" in Pashto, but Ghor refers to a different word meaning than Ghar. In Farsi Ghor means depth. Now perhaps Ghor and Ghar are related words in the Indo-European sense, but they aren't linguistically the same when it comes to Pashto and Farsi. There's no such word as "Ghor" in Pashto. There is Ghorzang, and there is Ghar, but no Ghor.

Lastly the name "Suri", there are Suris who are Ghilzai, but The name Suri is not exclusively Pashtun nor any indicator of Pashtun ancestry in and of itself.


There's no evidence that the Shansabani Suris are the Ghilzai Suris. Thus this cannot be a legitimate claim.

Sometimes "o" sound and the "a" sound are interchanged depending on dialect. For example in khost, the people there call their city "khast" and "kor" is changed to "kar." all the other words with that vowel sound are changed the same way.

[khushal]

Well Middle Persian is much older than Dari, I wouldn't classify it as "Farsi" it's just used as a Term by linguists. But we can find mutual intelligibility between Dari of the 10th century and Dari now, even though changes have happened, structurally they're the same. But Middle Persian would not necessarily be intelligible to a Dari of the 10th century.

About being learned men, Even Learned men don't know everything.

most authors say the changes between late Middle and Early New Persian were very gradual, and in the 10th-11th centuries, Middle Persian texts were still intelligible to speakers of Early New Persian.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Sometimes "o" sound and the "a" sound are interchanged depending on dialect. For example in khost, the people there call their city "khast" and "kor" is changed to "kar." all the other words with that vowel sound are changed the same way.

That's true, but even the locals of Ghor, are predominantly Farsi speaking say Ghor. I'm just suggesting that the Ghor-Ghar connection would be inconclusive.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

most authors say the changes between late Middle and Early New Persian were very gradual, and in the 10th-11th centuries, Middle Persian texts were still intelligible to speakers of Early New Persian.

Well what stage would that have been? Because The Middle Persian- Dari transition would have been a considerable leap

For example Winashp is the Middle Persian of Shansabani, that's quite a difference.

[khushal]

Well what stage would that have been? Because The Middle Persian- Dari transition would have been a considerable leap

For example Winashp is the Middle Persian of Shansabani, that's quite a difference.

I havent read too much about languages transitions but this is what it says:

http://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Middle%20Persian&item_type=topic

Transition to New Persian
The modern-day descendant of Middle Persian is New Persian. The changes between late Middle and Early New Persian were very gradual, and in the 10th-11th centuries, Middle Persian texts were still intelligible to speakers of Early New Persian. However, there are definite differences that had taken place already by the 10th century:

Sound changes, such as
the dropping of unstressed initial vowels
the epenthesis of vowels in initial consonant clusters
the loss of -g when word final
change of initial w- to either b- or (gw- → g-)
Changes in the verbal system, notably the loss of distinctive subjunctive and optative forms, and the increasing use of verbal prefixes to express verbal moods
Changes in the vocabulary, especially the substitution of a large number of Arabic loanwords for words of native origin
The substitution of Arabic script for Pahlavi script.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Interesting but how intelligible would they be? like Kandahari Pashto vs. Paktawal Pashto intelligible or

German vs. Norwegian intelligible?

[khushal]

Interesting but how intelligible would they be? like Kandahari Pashto vs. Paktawal Pashto intelligible or

German vs. Norwegian intelligible?

here is a more detailed explanation:

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/persian-language-1-early-new-persian