Afghan Elections

[Tamim]

I know and I am sorry, but I sometimes feel like pashtuns don't want live as equals with us. And that just pi*s me off.

It is strange, I have not shown any disrespect to you.

The problem is that we tend to blame our problems on someone or thing or even God. Human beings feel that they are individually special, therefore, if anything bad happens it must be a conspiracy against them. And, if there is no human being around, then they blame nature. In the end, if they don't tame themselves very well, they even curse God.

Many of us do not understand history properly or politics. So, when things happen that are not in our favour, we all find a way to blame others.

Once we start educating ourselves impartially we will realize the problems that even exist in our own society and culture.

Many of the problems that non-Pashtun have against each other are on the back burner for now. There is a common enemy, the Pashtun, so everyone is united.

Unity based on a false premise will only lead to destruction.

That is why I say that our only commonality is our humanity. This will ensure lasting peace.

Today, the Pashtun are the scapegoats for all non-Pashtun.

Tomorrow a Herati will fight a Sunni Muslim because some Herati was offended by a Sunni; and, then a long history of dirty laundry will be unearthed. Then, Safawi Heratis will want division from the Sunni "criminals."

[Tamim]

Brother, all this tajikism, gurgen turkistan,.. and all that nationalist cr*p did not exist few decades ago. Three decades ago we only had pashtunism and loy awghanistan nationalism. Pashtun nationalism started all this ethnic nationalism.

I hate nationalism. I did not choose my country nor my ethnicity. But I feel closer to "my people" and I know that despite all our wrongdoings we are trying and working hard to leave behind our feudal way of life.

The problems you are mentioning are not limited to a group in particular. We are the victims of the Great Game. It still continues, only under different names. Today, they call it, "war on terror."

[dehqaanherawi]

It is strange, I have not shown any disrespect to you.

The problem is that we tend to blame our problems on someone or thing or even God. Human beings feel that they are individually special, therefore, if anything bad happens it must be a conspiracy against them. And, if there is no human being around, then they blame nature. In the end, if they don't tame themselves very well, they even curse God.

Many of us do not understand history properly or politics. So, when things happen that are not in our favour, we all find a way to blame others.

Once we start educating ourselves impartially we will realize the problems that even exist in our own society and culture.

Many of the problems that non-Pashtun have against each other are on the back burner for now. There is a common enemy, the Pashtun, so everyone is united.

Unity based on a false premise will only lead to destruction.

That is why I say that our only commonality is our humanity. This will ensure lasting peace.

Today, the Pashtun are the scapegoats for all non-Pashtun.

Tomorrow a Herati will fight a Sunni Muslim because some Herati was offended by a Sunni; and, then a long history of dirty laundry will be unearthed. Then, Safawi Heratis will want division from the Sunni "criminals."

My personal experience says to me that most of shia heratis hate to death Iran. Actually most of heratis, despite being almost "iranians", dislike pretty much Iran, probably more than any other people in Afghanistan.

If I disrespected you, then I am sorry. But I feel like non pashtuns are more willing to coexist than pashtuns. Prove me wrong.

[Herat]

The problems you are mentioning are not limited to a group in particular. We are the victims of the Great Game. It still continues, only under different names. Today, they call it, "war on terror."

In the Soviet war, the ethnic groups were united but not so any more, not against the Americans, why is that? The harsh truth, my friend, is that the non-Pashtuns would rather watch you burn than accept the soul of your people (the Taliban) again. Yes we are the victims of the great game, this arbitrary country called "Afghanistan" is its ultimate legacy, it wasn't just the Durand line that the British drew my friend; "Afghanistans" northern borders were negotiated by the Russian and British empires (so much for the farcical platitude that that piece of cow dung, Abdul Rahman Khan, colonized our lands to defend the illegitimate state). You are right, the problems of this country is our collective burden, I do not hold you Pashtuns as a people responsible for this mess but all of this is more the reason for our separation. We cannot live together anymore and we do not want to. The problem is that you are the only people who will not accept this fact, why are you clinging to a people who do not want to be with you?

[Tamim]

My personal experience says to me that most of shia heratis hate to death Iran. Actually most of heratis, despite being almost "iranians", dislike pretty much Iran, probably more than any other people in Afghanistan.

If I disrespected you, then I am sorry. But I feel like non pashtuns are more willing to coexist than pashtuns. Prove me wrong.

You have no need to apologize. I just made that comment to show you that I enjoy your company, hence why i am chatting with you.

The reality of that problem can really be understood when you will have non-Herati Tajiks, Hazaras and etc, "co-existing." It will only be a matter of time before some Hazara will chant death to Heratis. Remember that Hazaras deep inside find their loyalty to Iran because of their religious commonalities. So many Hazaras died in the Iran-Iraq war.

Hazaras, at the individual level, don't like Iran, because of the cruelty they have seen from Iran. However, because they have tribal mentality, they will sacrifice themselves for their leader. So, all Iran needs to do is buy their leader.

Iran, if they have an interest in somethings Heratis have will incite Hazaras to fight you.

And, so, the story will continue for you to find another identity.

In the end, even siblings will fight.

Hence, why I say, insaaniyat is the only thing we should be fighting for.

[Tamim]

In the Soviet war, the ethnic groups were united but not so any more, not against the Americans, why is that? The harsh truth, my friend, is that the non-Pashtuns would rather watch you burn than accept the soul of your people (the Taliban) again. Yes we are the victims of the great game, this arbitrary country called "Afghanistan" is its ultimate legacy, it wasn't just the Durand line that the British drew my friend; "Afghanistans" northern borders were negotiated by the Russian and British empires (so much for the farcical platitude that that piece of cow dung, Abdul Rahman Khan, colonized our lands to defend the illegitimate state). You are right, the problems of this country is our collective burden, I do not hold you Pashtuns as a people responsible for this mess but all of this is more the reason for our separation. We cannot live together anymore and we do not want to. The problem is that you are the only people who will not accept this fact, why are you clinging to a people who do not want to be with you?

The Taliban is a creation of US, just as the Mujahiddin were. Our problem is the foreign meddling.

Remember, that Tajiks were kicked out of mainland Iran. They settled in what is called Afghanistan today. So, to ask for a division of the land is hard.

NWFP or KP, is being disputed because the land split Pashtun populations. Mashhad we don't care about, I guess because it went with the wind. No Pashtun population.

So, just as much as you want to preserve your people, so do Pashtuns.

Dividing the land might be a solution. But, is it the ultimate solution?

Man, this whole idea of land division and borders is a joke to me. The land belongs to no one. It belongs to all of us collectively.

There are other solutions, aside from dividing the land. But if that is what you want, and if that will bring peace, then I guess it is the solution for the moment.

Sad reality.

[Herat]

Tamim, this standard Pashtun scare tactic of "partition will not solve anything, you will fight amongst yourselves for other reasons" is but a half-truth. The reality is that the question is an empirical one, subject to scientific investigation and in fact, there is already an abundance of literature on the matter which has come to the following conclusion: there is a strong correlation between ethnic heterogeneity within a state and ethnic conflict and this correlation is causal (to establish causality we must look at ethnic conflict from an evolutionary perspective). A classic and seminal piece of literature on the issue is "The Ethnic Phenomenon" by Pierre Van Den Berghe.

PS what the hell are you talking about, Tajiks were kicked out of Iran? Listen, there is NO FREAKING HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for a Pashtun presence in Northern "Afghanistan", you people are the colonial legacy of Abdul Rahman Khan (may his name be obliterated) who displaced rebellious tribes, nothing more. The Tajiks and Uzbeks, on the other hand, have been present in what is now Northern "Afghanistan", our lands, for over millennia, even the Hazaras have more history in the North than you Pashtuns.

[dehqaanherawi]

You have no need to apologize. I just made that comment to show you that I enjoy your company, hence why i am chatting with you.

The reality of that problem can really be understood when you will have non-Herati Tajiks, Hazaras and etc, "co-existing." It will only be a matter of time before some Hazara will chant death to Heratis. Remember that Hazaras deep inside find their loyalty to Iran because of their religious commonalities. So many Hazaras died in the Iran-Iraq war.

Hazaras, at the individual level, don't like Iran, because of the cruelty they have seen from Iran. However, because they have tribal mentality, they will sacrifice themselves for their leader. So, all Iran needs to do is buy their leader.

Iran, if they have an interest in somethings Heratis have will incite Hazaras to fight you.

And, so, the story will continue for you to find another identity.

In the end, even siblings will fight.

Hence, why I say, insaaniyat is the only thing we should be fighting for.

There are already many hazaras in Herat. Actually, when mr Anwari (a tajik shia from Ghorband) was imposed on us by Karzai, he brought many hazaras to Herat with him. Do you know Ahmad Behzad? He is a hazara from Herat and he is a deputy of the Afghan Congress... heratis chose him.

Tajiks and pashtuns are extremely racist toward turkic tribes. Thats true. But I don't see us killing each other. We have just to give them autonomy in Hazarajat. Do you know why most of cities are right now "invaded" by hazaras? Its because most of their rural provinces have been neglected by the current government so they have been forced to move into our cities. I have no problem with hazaras because they have proved to be the most hard worker tribe in Afghanistan and they are really educating themselves.

[dehqaanherawi]

The Taliban is a creation of US, just as the Mujahiddin were. Our problem is the foreign meddling.

Remember, that Tajiks were kicked out of mainland Iran. They settled in what is called Afghanistan today. So, to ask for a division of the land is hard.

NWFP or KP, is being disputed because the land split Pashtun populations. Mashhad we don't care about, I guess because it went with the wind. No Pashtun population.

So, just as much as you want to preserve your people, so do Pashtuns.

Dividing the land might be a solution. But, is it the ultimate solution?

Man, this whole idea of land division and borders is a joke to me. The land belongs to no one. It belongs to all of us collectively.

There are other solutions, aside from dividing the land. But if that is what you want, and if that will bring peace, then I guess it is the solution for the moment.

Sad reality.

Bechem, thats one of the biggest lie ever. Tajiks trace back their roots to bactrians, soghdians and parthians. Many persians moved to Khorasan after the islamic arrival, so we have also persian ancestors. No offense, but there are many evidences about "tajik" presence in what is known as "afghanistan" for centuries. Actually Roxana, Spitamenes, Satibarzanes, Oxiartes, Surena, Zardusht,.. those people were our ancestors.. Please, now prove pashtun presence in Khorasan. Please, provide FACTS, not fairy tails.

[dehqaanherawi]

Tamim, this standard Pashtun scare tactic of "partition will not solve anything, you will fight amongst yourselves for other reasons" is but a half-truth. The reality is that the question is an empirical one, subject to scientific investigation and in fact, there is already an abundance of literature on the matter which has come to the following conclusion: there is a strong correlation between ethnic heterogeneity within a state and ethnic conflict and this correlation is causal (to establish causality we must look at ethnic conflict from an evolutionary perspective). A classic and seminal piece of literature on the issue is "The Ethnic Phenomenon" by Pierre Van Den Berghe.

PS what the hell are you talking about, Tajiks were kicked out of Iran? Listen, there is NO FREAKING HISTORICAL EVIDENCE for a Pashtun presence in Northern "Afghanistan", you people are the colonial legacy of Abdul Rahman Khan (may his name be obliterated) who displaced rebellious tribes, nothing more. The Tajiks and Uzbeks, on the other hand, have been present in what is now Northern "Afghanistan", our lands, for over millennia, even the Hazaras have more history in the North than you Pashtuns.

Not only in north afghanistan, but also in west and south afghanistan. Just take a look at their names: nimruz, girishk, lashkargah, registan, zaranj,..etc all of them are persian names.

[Herat]

Not only in north afghanistan, but also in west and south afghanistan. Just take a look at their names: nimruz, girishk, lashkargah, registan, zaranj,..etc all of them are persian names.

By the "North" I mean all of our lands above the Hindukush where we are majorities, no point in chasing hegemonic fairy tales based on ancient history bro otherwise we are no better than these colonizers who believe we are aliens in our own lands.

[Tamim]

Bechem, thats one of the biggest lie ever. Tajiks trace back their roots to bactrians, soghdians and parthians. Many persians moved to Khorasan after the islamic arrival, so we have also persian ancestors. No offense, but there are many evidences about "tajik" presence in what is known as "afghanistan" for centuries. Actually Roxana, Spitamenes, Satibarzanes, Oxiartes, Surena, Zardusht,.. those people were our ancestors.. Please, now prove pashtun presence in Khorasan. Please, provide FACTS, not fairy tails.

The term "tajik" is a word that was used by Shah Ismail to mean non-Turkish. It was used in a derogatory way. It is only in the recent past that it is being used as a nationalistic poster-child.

What you are suggesting is what I am suggesting. If we go way back, then the people who originally settled in these lands should have these lands.

Who are these people? These people their DNA run in you and in me through inter-marriage.

We have only recently created an identity for ourselves. So, the Tajik nationalistic identity is only recent. It came about due to foreign whisperers.

For all you and I could know, me and you have the same ancestral tree.

So, these "ethnic" lines are false and only to stir emotions for a nationalistic sentiments.

[Tamim]

Herat and dehqaanherawi,

your claims for the land is the same claims that the Pashtun are making.

History is not something that was written concretely, and when it was it was not written honestly.

Yes, you can study artifacts and literature, etc., but in the end it will not shed light into who had rights over the land.

Today, it is clear that Europeans Colonialists have usurped lands of Aboriginals, but how are they going to contest it? Will it bring peace? Do you think that the migrations of the 20th century will allow for it? It will not resolve anything. The Aboriginals just need to intergrate and maintain their identity.

If their identity is being destroyed by Western culture, then that is the problem that all aboriginals had to face.

Again, the solution is not division of land. People have always settled. Remember, we all come from Africa. We all left Africa to settle. Then it is only the shift in tectonic plates that have divide us. Otherwise, we had access to each other through land.

Since, the lines are man-made, therefore, your settlement there in the Northern Afghanistan are also man made. The Persian Empire had it share of wars.

Therefore, going back to my point, it is useless to split the land. It might resolve temporary issues caused by divide and conquer, but it will not resolve the eternal human conflict.

Human conflict can only be resolved through compromise.

[Tamim]

It seems that this nationalistic paradigm, or agenda, that Abdullah's team has is not being supported by democratic processes.

This nationalistic paradigm is the reason why the Abdullah team is calling a one-way election fraud. It is VERY clear that fraud has happened on both sides. However, it does not matter. Because Abdullah's goals are arg ya marg. There is no other option.

He was hoping to use the democratic purpose for his own ends. Seems that it is not working. He just got out frauded.

The democratic just failed Abdullah.

Because he has to promote the democracy, he is stuck between a rock and a hard place. This was very clear when he was about to call his own parallel government. I guess he stopped because in the end he needs the support of Western money.

His non-democratic tendencies came out in Freudian slips.

[Herat]

Herat and dehqaanherawi,

your claims for the land is the same claims that the Pashtun are making.

History is not something that was written concretely, and when it was it was not written honestly.

Yes, you can study artifacts and literature, etc., but in the end it will not shed light into who had rights over the land.

Today, it is clear that Europeans Colonialists have usurped lands of Aboriginals, but how are they going to contest it? Will it bring peace? Do you think that the migrations of the 20th century will allow for it? It will not resolve anything. The Aboriginals just need to intergrate and maintain their identity.

If their identity is being destroyed by Western culture, then that is the problem that all aboriginals had to face.

Again, the solution is not division of land. People have always settled. Remember, we all come from Africa. We all left Africa to settle. Then it is only the shift in tectonic plates that have divide us. Otherwise, we had access to each other through land.

Since, the lines are man-made, therefore, your settlement there in the Northern Afghanistan are also man made. The Persian Empire had it share of wars.

Therefore, going back to my point, it is useless to split the land. It might resolve temporary issues caused by divide and conquer, but it will not resolve the eternal human conflict.

Human conflict can only be resolved through compromise.

Oh so you think our situation is similar to that of the aboriginals in the North, eh? Fine then my self-deceptive friend, believe that but do not say no one told you so. Just wait and see, see what happens for civil war is inevitable and I welcome it if this forum is representative of the Pashtun population.

And look at your ridiculous self-deceptive, special pleading: we non-Pashtuns should just accept being swamped by colonizers who deem us aliens in our own lands, it is simple natural "evolution" but the same cannot hold for the Pashtuns of Pakistan. Why? Because it is in our ethnic Pashtun interests thats why. **** off with your strategically deceptive, self deceptive Alan Dershowitz style reasoning, if you wish to keep Afghanistan intact then you better recognize the Durand line, thats our condition. No special pleading, you either have unity with your brethren across the border or you have unity with us, you cannot have both because we will not accept being reduced to insignificant minorities in our own lands by colonizers.