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Afghanistan's Ethnic Puzzle

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  • Afghanistan's Ethnic Puzzle

    This is an interesting article I found while browsing the web: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...-ethnic-puzzle. I've quoted some parts that I found interesting.

    "On the political level, ethnicity in Afghanistan is more descriptive than operational, as most individuals' primary loyalty is local -- to kin, village, valley, or region. There is little political cohesiveness within large ethnic groups, except when faced with an enemy ethnic group. Meanwhile, crosscutting ties of intermarriage, bilingualism, and political alliance regularly transcend ethnicity. Among non-Pashtuns, shared location is even more important: different ethnic communities in the same towns and villages often display more solidarity with one another than they do with their ethnic compatriots from other parts of the country. As a result, Afghan ethnic groups have never viewed themselves as fixed nationalities with an overriding commonality and history that would require political unity or a nation-state. Instead, ethnicity in Afghanistan is essentially prenationalist, with ethnic groups holding similar economic and political interests but no common ideology or separatist aspirations. Moreover, the multiethnic state had long been the accepted norm in Afghanistan; it was not some anomaly that needed rectification. Ethnic conflicts in Afghanistan historically centered on which group would dominate the state and subordinate others, not over which group would have exclusive control of a territory."


    "Although ethnic conflict played a role in Afghan politics in the twentieth century, it was never the reason for state collapse. Instead, it was ideology that brought down most regimes. The country was cleaved by an unresolved conflict between the modernizing elites in Kabul and the country's more conservative rural inhabitants. The modernizers assumed that they could change Afghanistan by decree, but they underestimated the military strength and administrative capacity required to accomplish such a task. This conflict first proved fatal in 1929, when the reform-minded Amanullah Khan was overthrown by rural revolts only months after demanding sweeping social and legal changes. Two generations later, in 1978, the same conflict arose when the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan promulgated radical new social and economic policies that alienated rural Afghans. Only a Soviet invasion the next year and a protracted occupation would keep the PDPA in power."


    "These conflicts did not pit different ethnic groups against one another: Pashtun kings and Communists opposed rural Pashtun mullahs and tribal khans; a progressive Persian-speaking intelligentsia in Kabul opposed conservative Persian-speaking villagers. In both 1929 and 1978, insurgents allied across ethnic and regional lines, citing the common threat to their traditional ways of life and interpretations of Islam. (Although the current insurgency in Afghanistan reflects similar ideological and cultural fault lines, the Taliban have found it more difficult to transcend their rural Pashtun ethnic base.) In Afghanistan, such ideological conflicts are associated with opposition to established regimes, whereas ethnic and regional conflicts emerge in the vacuum after a state collapse. Despite the decade that has passed since the Taliban were driven from power, Afghanistan, at least politically, still remains in this post-collapse era of uncertainty. Therefore, frustrating the Taliban insurgency is less about confronting the Taliban's ideology, which was never very popular in Afghanistan, than it is about creating a more stable and legitimate Afghan state."


    Taken from: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articl...-ethnic-puzzle

    I think this article was quite objective and unbiased. I suggest you all read it as the author raises many good points. Do you agree with his notion of how Afghanistan's current governmental system should be reformed?
    Last edited by pashtanajan; 03-30-2014, 05:00 AM.
    True wisdom comes to each of us when we realize how little we understand about life, ourselves, and the world around us. - Socrates

  • #2
    this has been my assesment of the nation and why i believe any split by ethnic lines is not based on the social realities on the ground and therefore a far distant possibility.
    There are people today who think that admitting God’s absolute greatness decreases the value and importance of humans in the creation, as if God and mankind are rivals competing in greatness and power. Meanwhile I feel that whenever our perception of God’s greatness increases, with it we become greater, because we are the creation of a great God.

    Sayyid Qutb

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    • #3
      Originally posted by randolph85 View Post
      this has been my assesment of the nation and why i believe any split by ethnic lines is not based on the social realities on the ground and therefore a far distant possibility.
      Yeah tell that to Gadoonwal -_-

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      • #4
        I think most of afghans don't hate each other. But when it comes to politics everyone has his own interest. There are many ethnic groups, ideologies, religions, languages and cultures in Afghanistan. We have failed. We have not been able to create a national identity.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by vinyard80 View Post
          I think most of afghans don't hate each other. But when it comes to politics everyone has his own interest. There are many ethnic groups, ideologies, religions, languages and cultures in Afghanistan. We have failed. We have not been able to create a national identity.
          From my connection, it under construction now.....

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Khostai View Post
            From my connection, it under construction now.....
            Which identity? Talibanism? Pashtun nationalism? Khorasanism-tajikism? We have failed miserably.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by vinyard80 View Post
              Which identity? Talibanism? Pashtun nationalism? Khorasanism-tajikism? We have failed miserably.
              I am not allowed to say more, buth its not the one you mentioned.

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              • #8
                All of this (largely irrelevant historical analysis actually, the circumstances with today are incomparable) is moot or will become moot once the foreign powers leave because lets face it: the government will last a few years at the very best, the Taliban will come to power again -they've virtually defeated NATO, you would have to be pretty delusional to think theyd be content with compromising with the farce that is the Afghan government (so all these ideas involving political compromise on their part is futile) . What will happen after that depends entirely on the extent to which the Tajik/Uzbek/Hazara populations are willing to mobilize in the Northern Alliance again; if there is enough mobilization to generate a country-wide civil war then balkanization/ethnic partition is very much a possibility. The other possibility, the certain one if there isn't significantly more mobilization than in the last civil war, is the reestablishment of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Whatever the case, this fairy tale scenario of everyone coming together in peaceful compromise isn't going to happen.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Herat View Post
                  All of this (largely irrelevant historical analysis actually, the circumstances with today are incomparable) is moot or will become moot once the foreign powers leave because lets face it: the government will last a few years at the very best, the Taliban will come to power again -they've virtually defeated NATO, you would have to be pretty delusional to think theyd be content with compromising with the farce that is the Afghan government (so all these ideas involving political compromise on their part is futile) . What will happen after that depends entirely on the extent to which the Tajik/Uzbek/Hazara populations are willing to mobilize in the Northern Alliance again; if there is enough mobilization to generate a country-wide civil war then balkanization/ethnic partition is very much a possibility. The other possibility, the certain one if there isn't significantly more mobilization than in the last civil war, is the reestablishment of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Whatever the case, this fairy tale scenario of everyone coming together in peaceful compromise isn't going to happen.
                  Welcome to the forum Herat (I presume you're of Farsiwan/Tajik background?)

                  The Taliban may indeed unfortunately return to power with the help of their Pakistani and Saudi friends, but in the long run their ideology and policies are simply unsustainable in the modern world.

                  One of their patrons, Saudi Arabia, is now abandoning Wahabism (in terms of social policies) and the Pakistani middle-class are also turning against extreme fundamentalism.

                  Ultimately Afghans will defeat the Pakistani-Saudi backed Taliban.

                  Good luck to Afghan brothers and sisters.
                  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Herat View Post
                    All of this (largely irrelevant historical analysis actually, the circumstances with today are incomparable) is moot or will become moot once the foreign powers leave because lets face it: the government will last a few years at the very best, the Taliban will come to power again -they've virtually defeated NATO, you would have to be pretty delusional to think theyd be content with compromising with the farce that is the Afghan government (so all these ideas involving political compromise on their part is futile) . What will happen after that depends entirely on the extent to which the Tajik/Uzbek/Hazara populations are willing to mobilize in the Northern Alliance again; if there is enough mobilization to generate a country-wide civil war then balkanization/ethnic partition is very much a possibility. The other possibility, the certain one if there isn't significantly more mobilization than in the last civil war, is the reestablishment of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Whatever the case, this fairy tale scenario of everyone coming together in peaceful compromise isn't going to happen.
                    Taliban could only come to power if the next precident will make the same ****y corrupt goverment like what Karzai did. That was the only reason Taliban recived so much support from the people.

                    But I still don't see them coming to power with the same ideology as once they had.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Herat View Post
                      All of this (largely irrelevant historical analysis actually, the circumstances with today are incomparable) is moot or will become moot once the foreign powers leave because lets face it: the government will last a few years at the very best, the Taliban will come to power again -they've virtually defeated NATO, you would have to be pretty delusional to think theyd be content with compromising with the farce that is the Afghan government (so all these ideas involving political compromise on their part is futile) . What will happen after that depends entirely on the extent to which the Tajik/Uzbek/Hazara populations are willing to mobilize in the Northern Alliance again; if there is enough mobilization to generate a country-wide civil war then balkanization/ethnic partition is very much a possibility. The other possibility, the certain one if there isn't significantly more mobilization than in the last civil war, is the reestablishment of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Whatever the case, this fairy tale scenario of everyone coming together in peaceful compromise isn't going to happen.
                      Currently we are busy in building a common base with southern Taliban forces and to integrate them into reconciliation process. I think we would still doing better if we win over this group. At least Taliban will be weakend and devided.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bengal_Tiger View Post
                        Welcome to the forum Herat (I presume you're of Farsiwan/Tajik background?)

                        The Taliban may indeed unfortunately return to power with the help of their Pakistani and Saudi friends, but in the long run their ideology and policies are simply unsustainable in the modern world.

                        One of their patrons, Saudi Arabia, is now abandoning Wahabism (in terms of social policies) and the Pakistani middle-class are also turning against extreme fundamentalism.

                        Ultimately Afghans will defeat the Pakistani-Saudi backed Taliban.

                        Good luck to Afghan brothers and sisters.

                        Thank you Bengal_Tiger, but with all due respect, I don't buy this narrative of the Taliban as a Pakistan/Saudi Arabia proxy; the Taliban movement was and is a grassroots Pashtun movement -they are supported/funded by Pakistan/Saudi Arabia yes - but they do seem to represent the interests of a large segment of the Pashtun population. Since above all I support the right to self determination of all the peoples of Afghanistan, I actually don't have a problem with the Taliban but I just don't think they represent my (yes I am a Tajik) interests as a Tajik (and I think there is much evidence that most non-Pashtuns in Afghanistan feel the same way). The only solution that seems to reconcile these beliefs is partition along ethnic lines and lets be rational as opposed to sentimental for a moment here -Afghanistan is a failed state- nothing would be lost if it were to go the way of Bangladesh/Pakistan but much would be gained -a state for the Northern peoples to pursue their own interests- and inevitably the eventual creation of an independent Pashtunistan that would best represent the interests of the Pashtun people. Of course this is how I feel, I think realistically the Taliban will probably come to conquer virtually all of Afghanistan again but I do hope as you do that this will be an unsustainable state of affairs in the long run.


                        Originally posted by Bost Bastan News View Post
                        Currently we are busy in building a common base with southern Taliban forces and to integrate them into reconciliation process. I think we would still doing better if we win over this group. At least Taliban will be weakend and devided.
                        Don't you think most of those "Taliban" aren't likely just opportunistic Pashtun warlords (and the Taliban lose nothing of value)? I don't think the Taliban at its ideologically committed core will be content with joining the Afghan government as it is and certainly not while NATO is still there. Lets be real here, they have pretty much defeated NATO and they will surely destroy the farce that is the Afghan government.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bengal_Tiger View Post
                          Welcome to the forum Herat (I presume you're of Farsiwan/Tajik background?)

                          The Taliban may indeed unfortunately return to power with the help of their Pakistani and Saudi friends, but in the long run their ideology and policies are simply unsustainable in the modern world.

                          One of their patrons, Saudi Arabia, is now abandoning Wahabism (in terms of social policies) and the Pakistani middle-class are also turning against extreme fundamentalism.

                          Ultimately Afghans will defeat the Pakistani-Saudi backed Taliban.

                          Good luck to Afghan brothers and sisters.
                          No no, Herat is actually a Paki. He is only pretending to be a Herati. No other group has as perfectly mastered the art of deception as Pakis.

                          Last edited by Toramana; 04-02-2014, 09:00 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Toramana would know, he's a Paracha, and therefore just a servant boy of Pashtuns


                            it's so ironic I never knew about Parachas but I found out you guys are Yemenis, I guess you were slaves we traded.
                            [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                            2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Herat View Post
                              Thank you Bengal_Tiger, but with all due respect, I don't buy this narrative of the Taliban as a Pakistan/Saudi Arabia proxy; the Taliban movement was and is a grassroots Pashtun movement -they are supported/funded by Pakistan/Saudi Arabia yes - but they do seem to represent the interests of a large segment of the Pashtun population. Since above all I support the right to self determination of all the peoples of Afghanistan, I actually don't have a problem with the Taliban but I just don't think they represent my (yes I am a Tajik) interests as a Tajik (and I think there is much evidence that most non-Pashtuns in Afghanistan feel the same way). The only solution that seems to reconcile these beliefs is partition along ethnic lines and lets be rational as opposed to sentimental for a moment here -Afghanistan is a failed state- nothing would be lost if it were to go the way of Bangladesh/Pakistan but much would be gained -a state for the Northern peoples to pursue their own interests- and inevitably the eventual creation of an independent Pashtunistan that would best represent the interests of the Pashtun people. Of course this is how I feel, I think realistically the Taliban will probably come to conquer virtually all of Afghanistan again but I do hope as you do that this will be an unsustainable state of affairs in the long run.



                              .
                              I fear you are right... but partition don't use to be a peaceful process. There are large pashtun minorities in west and north afghanistan just like large tajik pockets in south and east. Thousand of innocent human beings are going to die..

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