Why have Tajiks always supported foreigners ?

[Shah-i-Kot]

Everything changes in this life. We are not in 1996. Now rules have changed for all of us. In 1996 when taliban took over Kabul, non pashtuns had almost no supplies. But in these last 13 years everything have changed. Now they have access to heavy weapons, they got rich and they can rearm their militas much better than taliban-pashtuns. All our neighbors support them, except Pakistan: Iran, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Russia, China, India and Europe/West. You are fooling yourself with BSA. Several european countries have said they will keep troops in afghanistan (germany, italy,..etc) even after 2014. Karzai is just playing the patriotic card, but he will sign BSA because tajiks will force him to do so.

BTW with or without BSA pashtun belt always has been poor, violent and mess. Pashtun nationalist are always blaming on non pashtuns and USA of all their miseries, but most of pashtuns are unable to join hands. There are many movements among pashtuns and almost no leaders. Pashtun belt will fall in 2014 to taliban hands and that will be the end of pashtun culture and pashtun identity. They will sc*w pashtun identity. Mark my words.

Firstly, the BSA without the Pakistani NATO supply lines is meaningless. Former US officials like Bruce Reidel and current US/NATO officials (Rasmussen) admit this. If you are telling me that these US/NATO officials are wrong, and that you are right (because you really hope BSA becomes a reality) then I think you need to get psychological counseling.

The KP NATO supply line has been closed, and PTI plans to close the Karachi port docking station to NATO.

I dont think there will be a civil war after US exit, and dont believe Karzai will have the same fate like Najib or Shah Shuja. The release of the Taliban prisoners was probably a result of some ongoing back channel negotiations between the Karzai regime and the Taliban.

[vinyard80]

First of all I am not a loya Afghanistan person.
Your alternative routes are not viable to natural trade routes that have existed for over a thousand years. Plus even if they work, all your doing is trading to be at the mercy of another group vs the group today. That's not a solution, its just trading masters.

The best way to do this is put all this hatred aside, the hatred is created from the outside. I believe the people and I mean all the people, Pashtun, tajiks Uzbeks, Hazara, Panjabis, etc are best served if the region unites under one federation or union with everyone having real access to the sea and the resources of the region. When I say real access, I mean the border goes to the sea. The region has all the variables to become a union that can vie with the EU and China.
Historically, it has been that way

I do agree with all your points but one. Historically? Man do you know Silk Road? North and West of modern afghanistan has survived without Gwadar for thousand of years lol

I do agree with you that all of us, afghans, pakis, iranians, indians, central asian countries, arabs and turks,.. we all should unite under one banner and create a federation so we can improve our lifes. Right now westerners are takes advantage of our stupidity.

[vinyard80]

LOL at Bamyan looking like switserland :P

Tajiks and pashtuns should learn from hazaras. They are right now most educated people in afghanistan. You still stuck in 70th. Hazaras are not toilet cleaners anymore.

[vinyard80]

Firstly, the BSA without the Pakistani NATO supply lines is meaningless. Former US officials like Bruce Reidel and current US/NATO officials (Rasmussen) admit this. If you are telling me that these US/NATO officials are wrong, and that you are right (because you really hope BSA becomes a reality) then I think you need to get psychological counseling.

The KP NATO supply line has been closed, and PTI plans to close the Karachi port docking station to NATO.

I dont think there will be a civil war after US exit, and dont believe Karzai will have the same fate like Najib or Shah Shuja. The release of the Taliban prisoners was probably a result of some ongoing back channel negotiations between the Karzai regime and the Taliban.

There is no negotiation between talibans and Karzai. Karzai is just playing the ethnic card in the end of his regime. He is just playing same game than Dr Najeeb. You know very well what happened to Najeeb. In these last 13 years pashtuns have suffered more than any other ethnic group in afghanistan. And now this dog called Karzai just wanna portray himself as some sort of patriot pashtun. Do you know that most of talibans released by karzai are from south and east afghanistan? There are many talibans from north and west afghanistan, but they will rot in jail because they don't belong to hamid karzai ethnic group LOL

On BSA, yes I want it to become a reality. I prefer USA over taliban. Please just prove me your claims: share sources. When Rasmussen said that? I proved that Germany-USA has signed an agreement with uzbekistan and I have also proved that iran, india and afghanistan opened chabahar port for afghans.

http://www.tolonews.com/en/afghanistan/7352-afghanistan-iran-and-india-reach-chabahar-agreement

Afghan experts supported the move to make Chabahar port, connecting Afghanistan to the Gulf waters, a good alternative to Karachi port.

"Chabahar connects Afghanistan to the Persian Gulf waters. It could be a good alternative to the Karachi port as it is the shortest and a low cost way for Afghanistan to reach these waters," head of Foreign Relations at the Afghan Chamber of Commerce and Industries Azarakhsh Hafezi said.

However security issues on the Afghan highways leading to Chabahar, particularly the Zaranj-Delaram highway, remain a concern for traders, however the Afghan Ministry of Interior said it would do more for security in that region.

"Unfortunately, all the development projects in Afghanistan face threats from the enemies. We will try hard to provide better security for this region," MOI spokesman Sediq Sediqqi said Monday.

The Afghan and Iranian governments signed an agreement earlier this year which leased 50,000 acres of land to Afghan traders near the Chabahar port to build a base for Afghan traders.

[Shah-i-Kot]

There is no negotiation between talibans and Karzai. Karzai is just playing the ethnic card in the end of his regime. He is just playing same game than Dr Najeeb. You know very well what happened to Najeeb. In these last 13 years pashtuns have suffered more than any other ethnic group in afghanistan. And now this dog called Karzai just wanna portray himself as some sort of patriot pashtun. Do you know that most of talibans released by karzai are from south and east afghanistan? There are many talibans from north and west afghanistan, but they will rot in jail because they don't belong to hamid karzai ethnic group LOL

On BSA, yes I want it to become a reality. I prefer USA over taliban. Please just prove me your claims: share sources. When Rasmussen said that? I proved that Germany-USA has signed an agreement with uzbekistan and I have also proved that iran, india and afghanistan opened chabahar port for afghans.


http://www.tolonews.com/en/afghanist...ahar-agreement



Afghan experts supported the move to make Chabahar port, connecting Afghanistan to the Gulf waters, a good alternative to Karachi port.

"Chabahar connects Afghanistan to the Persian Gulf waters. It could be a good alternative to the Karachi port as it is the shortest and a low cost way for Afghanistan to reach these waters," head of Foreign Relations at the Afghan Chamber of Commerce and Industries Azarakhsh Hafezi said.

However security issues on the Afghan highways leading to Chabahar, particularly the Zaranj-Delaram highway, remain a concern for traders, however the Afghan Ministry of Interior said it would do more for security in that region.

"Unfortunately, all the development projects in Afghanistan face threats from the enemies. We will try hard to provide better security for this region," MOI spokesman Sediq Sediqqi said Monday.

The Afghan and Iranian governments signed an agreement earlier this year which leased 50,000 acres of land to Afghan traders near the Chabahar port to build a base for Afghan traders.

Here are the sources that I linked to you before in a previous thread where you again made the false allegations that the US/NATO do not need Pakistani NATO supply lines.

Here is what Bruce Riedel says, former US security official for Afghanistan and Pakistan.
http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/p...nistan-endgame

"And the military knows it controls the vital NATO supply line from Karachi to Kabul used to ship more half of the allies’ supplies into the country. Foreign Minister Khar was only partly bluffing when she said the US needs Pakistan more than it needs the US. "

Here is Rasmussen, head of NATO, pleading with Pakistan to keep the major NATO supply routes open in November, 2013.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/04/us-pakistan-nato-idUSBRE9A30OS20131104

"I feel confident that the Pakistani authorities will maintain open supply routes and transit routes because it is in Pakistan's own interest to contribute positively to stability and security in the region,"


Despite the above plead, KP/PTI still went ahead and closed the NATO supply (where the majority of NATO supplies go through) line and plan to close the Karachi port to NATO supplies.


In regards to the Iran Chabahar port, yes Iran seeks to develop trade with Afghanistan, but this will never involve NATO (that was what you were trying to suggest am I right?). Recall, that Iran is the only nation that has publicly come out against the US/NATO security pact. Consider also that Iran has been providing military supplies to the Afghan insurgency.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cooperation-rises-between-iran-and-taliban/

http://washingtonexaminer.com/iran-training-taliban-fighters-to-use-surface-to-air-missiles/article/95972

[Bost Bastan News]

Just a stupid thread and totally wrong. The Tajiks did fought in all Anglo-Afghan wars, they fought in their own regions like Kabul and Kapisa, Pansher, Baghlan and they even fought in Maiwand as ''royal commando forces''. The first Defense Minister of Afghanistan was a Tajik from Panjshir. There are many Tajik heroes and Ghazis known from those wars. In Parwan, in Ahangaran, in Shirgard and in Herat they fought succesfull the Mongols. After the Arab conquest many Tajik empires appeared in the regions what we call today Afghanistan Uzbekistan and Iran. Even those Tajikfied ''Arab'' empires like Abbasid were established by Tajiks like Abu Muslem or Barmakids of Balkh. Cities like Bagdad were built by Tajiks from Herat and Sistan or Bukharians. Even in India and Bengal Tajik dynasties were established. Even when Timurids and other Mongols came to Afghanistan by power of gun these urbanized people were still powerful to destroy them and even civilize them, impose on them their language and culture. Tajiks used to be sub-rulers. The Tajik Basmachis fought Russians in the last century before Russians 60years later had the idea to invade Afghanistan but you can guess who invited those Russians to Afghanistan to fight those Tajiks who opposed communism. Exactly! Nadir Khan and earlier Amanullah Khan. The Tajiks were the main group who fought the Panjabis and other terrorists. Some people love to talk out of their hatred toward other Afghan tribes their own stories made out of their own short-coming. Some dirty Pakistani infected creatures should not start to talk about any Afghan tribes as long they still live as slaves on this world for the last 3000years. It just takes some hours reading some books about the history of Afghanistan. The easiest one is Afgahnistan da masir tarikh from Mr. Mohammad Ghubar, the greatest Afghan historian and of course Mr. Sistani.

The Kohistani Tajiks proved to be the most powerful and the best organized clans that opposed the British occupation of Kabul in 1879-80 .

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/KHA_KRI/KOHISTAN.html

[Bost Bastan News]

vineyard,
I understand that you moron. but those don't matter. Without the south, the north is nothing and without access to the sea and I mean real access, Afghanistan as a whole will remain in misery. This is evident by the fact America needed Pakistani supply lines.

America need Pakistan when it has 50 000 - 100 000 soldiers in Afghanistan but it doesn´t need Pakistan anymore if their troop strenghths consists of 10 000- 15 000 soldiers. Why do you think US build large airports in Kabul, Herat, Mazar ... ???? It´s very easy. The costs of providing those 100 000 soldiers with weapons, tanks, ammunitions, buggies via planes is much higher than the sea-route but we are no more talking about 50 000 - 100 000 men. Politically, US is still Pakistan´s ally while a political rival of Iran. If Iran would have been an ally (which is right now turning to be one) US had decided to come to Afghanistan via Iran. Why didn´t US chose to come to Afghanistan through northern routes which are even more cheaper than via Pakistan or Iran from Turkey? Because of the Russians. But now US want to use the northern routes through Uzbekistan. So Pakistan will no more play any important roles. Uzbekistan even offered US to let them to move into Afghanistan freely if US signs a treaty that allow Uzbekistan to own all weapons US is going to ''leave'' in Afghanistan ... Afghanistan doesn´t need a sea. For what? Afghanistan need the right politicians and the right politics. The northern routes, like the ancient ''Silk-road'' that is going to be revived again will serve Afghanistan more than enough. If we don´t have much to export then having sea acces is meaningless. But to make you happy, we already have a sea-acces. We signed a treaty with Iran.

[Bost Bastan News]

The Pashtun areas are not that isolated and poor...
Those regions also have a lot of development. You claim that people are stuck in 1996, but your point of view of Pashtun regions are also not that better than what people had about that regions in 1996.
Most of Pashtun that come back from Afghanistan always say what a hell Kabul is, and how it was good and clean to be in Jalalabad, Khost or Kandahar...

Right.

But I am worried that many good places, beatiful houses and districts like Ayno Meena will be turned into Taliban battlefields and punishment places or training-centers for Arab and Pakistani terrorists if they really should win those regions again. That´s the point. Nangarhar is a great, green and fresh province. Many regions in Kandahar are like Kabul in the 60s.

[khushal]

I do agree with all your points but one. Historically? Man do you know Silk Road? North and West of modern afghanistan has survived without Gwadar for thousand of years lol

I do agree with you that all of us, afghans, pakis, iranians, indians, central asian countries, arabs and turks,.. we all should unite under one banner and create a federation so we can improve our lifes. Right now westerners are takes advantage of our stupidity.

The silk road flourished when the region was under one union, so I don't get your point. You need to go read about the moghul empire, ghaznavids empire, ghori empire, suri empire, all the way back to the kushan empire. They ruled the region as one union.

Yes, you could survive, but who wants to just survive, you need to flourish and have some say in you destiny instead of having others decide your destiny for you. Get out of that typical Tajik slave mentality please.

[Bost Bastan News]

The silk road flourished when the region was under one union, so I don't get your point. You need to go read about the moghul empire, ghaznavids empire, ghori empire, suri empire, all the way back to the kushan empire. They ruled the region as one union.

Yes, you could survive, but who wants to just survive, you need to flourish and have some say in you destiny instead of having others decide your destiny for you. Get out of that typical Tajik slave mentality please.

Please get education and do understand a bit the geo-political and economic role of Afghanistan. Vinyard was right. 70% of Afghanistan´s in-come comes from WEST and NORTH with the highway connecting Balkh to Kabul and Herat to Balkh. The remaining comes from Pakistan... Kabul province makes 80% of the taxes paid in Afghanistan. The gate to Pakistan is actually only important for the south and east of the country because their regional closelness to the markets of south-east asia while northern and western Afghanistan are closer to Iran, Middle-East and other -stand and Russia. If you now start to look deeper on the economy you will understand that 95% of the in-come of southern and eastern Afghanistan comes from or go through Pakistan while the same can be said about the north and west of the country (Iran, Middle-East and northern -stands and east-Europe (Russia). The life of people in these regions are not by chance different than those living in other parts of the country, let´s say central Afghanistan (locked from trading). In the north local politicians have very good and deep relations with their partners abroad. Uzbekistan and Russia and to some degree even China are busy in northern Afghanistan (incl. drug-trafficing). That goes for the western parts of Afghanistan as well, speially for Heart. Currently, the governeur of Balkh, some politicians of Herat and Ghow are busy in building a new strategic highway as supply route between these two trade-centers like that one between Balkh and Kabul that is owned and secured by Mr Sayyaf, Mr. Fahim, Mr. Atta and partly by Mr. Qayyum Karzai....

[khushal]

Just a stupid thread and totally wrong. The Tajiks did fought in all Anglo-Afghan wars, they fought in their own regions like Kabul and Kapisa, Pansher, Baghlan and they even fought in Maiwand as ''royal commando forces''. The first Defense Minister of Afghanistan was a Tajik from Panjshir. There are many Tajik heroes and Ghazis known from those wars. In Parwan, in Ahangaran, in Shirgard and in Herat they fought succesfull the Mongols. After the Arab conquest many Tajik empires appeared in the regions what we call today Afghanistan Uzbekistan and Iran. Even those Tajikfied ''Arab'' empires like Abbasid were established by Tajiks like Abu Muslem or Barmakids of Balkh. Cities like Bagdad were built by Tajiks from Herat and Sistan or Bukharians. Even in India and Bengal Tajik dynasties were established. Even when Timurids and other Mongols came to Afghanistan by power of gun these urbanized people were still powerful to destroy them and even civilize them, impose on them their language and culture. Tajiks used to be sub-rulers. The Tajik Basmachis fought Russians in the last century before Russians 60years later had the idea to invade Afghanistan but you can guess who invited those Russians to Afghanistan to fight those Tajiks who opposed communism. Exactly! Nadir Khan and earlier Amanullah Khan. The Tajiks were the main group who fought the Panjabis and other terrorists. Some people love to talk out of their hatred toward other Afghan tribes their own stories made out of their own short-coming. Some dirty Pakistani infected creatures should not start to talk about any Afghan tribes as long they still live as slaves on this world for the last 3000years. It just takes some hours reading some books about the history of Afghanistan. The easiest one is Afgahnistan da masir tarikh from Mr. Mohammad Ghubar, the greatest Afghan historian and of course Mr. Sistani.

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/KHA_KRI/KOHISTAN.html

Tajiks are just persianized pamirs, you have lost your language for farsi. Tajik are a very recent term that is given to you by others.

Baghdad being built by tajiks. that's a funny.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

America need Pakistan when it has 50 000 - 100 000 soldiers in Afghanistan but it doesn´t need Pakistan anymore if their troop strenghths consists of 10 000- 15 000 soldiers. Why do you think US build large airports in Kabul, Herat, Mazar ... ???? It´s very easy. The costs of providing those 100 000 soldiers with weapons, tanks, ammunitions, buggies via planes is much higher than the sea-route but we are no more talking about 50 000 - 100 000 men. Politically, US is still Pakistan´s ally while a political rival of Iran. If Iran would have been an ally (which is right now turning to be one) US had decided to come to Afghanistan via Iran. Why didn´t US chose to come to Afghanistan through northern routes which are even more cheaper than via Pakistan or Iran from Turkey? Because of the Russians. But now US want to use the northern routes through Uzbekistan. So Pakistan will no more play any important roles. Uzbekistan even offered US to let them to move into Afghanistan freely if US signs a treaty that allow Uzbekistan to own all weapons US is going to ''leave'' in Afghanistan ... Afghanistan doesn´t need a sea. For what? Afghanistan need the right politicians and the right politics. The northern routes, like the ancient ''Silk-road'' that is going to be revived again will serve Afghanistan more than enough. If we don´t have much to export then having sea acces is meaningless. But to make you happy, we already have a sea-acces. We signed a treaty with Iran.

America and Pakistan relations are not just limited to the supply lines.Infact the relations has gone bad ever since Pakistan has started giving route to nato supply.Pakistan and America relations dates back to 60's and in 70's they were even all set to bomb India.

anyway Pakistan and USA relations again are getting better.and will become even more better after the troops withdraw from the region.

And if the drone strikes are also halted,Than Pakistan certainly has nothing against America.

[Da Bannu Mazdigar]

Tajiks and Punjabi has much in common

Unlike fighting between each other,Claiming to be this tribe superior to this and all this related ****.

They are working on themselves be it the education sector or life standard.They are superior to Pashtuns and are getting better and better.

By 2020 the difference between a Common pashtun and a common Punjabi/Tajik will be huge

Pashtuns needs to work on education especially women education,and most important get liberal,Enough with the mullaism.Otherwise we will really be left behind

[khushal]

Please get education and do understand a bit the geo-political and economic role of Afghanistan. Vinyard was right. 70% of Afghanistan´s in-come comes from WEST and NORTH with the highway connecting Balkh to Kabul and Herat to Balkh. The remaining comes from Pakistan... Kabul province makes 80% of the taxes paid in Afghanistan. The gate to Pakistan is actually only important for the south and east of the country because their regional closelness to the markets of south-east asia while northern and western Afghanistan are closer to Iran, Middle-East and other -stand and Russia. If you now start to look deeper on the economy you will understand that 95% of the in-come of southern and eastern Afghanistan comes from or go through Pakistan while the same can be said about the north and west of the country (Iran, Middle-East and northern -stands and east-Europe (Russia). The life of people in these regions are not by chance different than those living in other parts of the country, let´s say central Afghanistan (locked from trading). In the north local politicians have very good and deep relations with their partners abroad. Uzbekistan and Russia and to some degree even China are busy in northern Afghanistan (incl. drug-trafficing). That goes for the western parts of Afghanistan as well, speially for Heart. Currently, the governeur of Balkh, some politicians of Herat and Ghow are busy in building a new strategic highway as supply route between these two trade-centers like that one between Balkh and Kabul that is owned and secured by Mr Sayyaf, Mr. Fahim, Mr. Atta and partly by Mr. Qayyum Karzai....

Dude 90% of Afghanistan income comes from US taxpayers. Your spewing out mental diarrhea.

The world is owned by the people that control the seas. Wake up ghul. Land routes are meaningless without the sea. This is why Europe rose while the Ottomans fell. The Ottomans were using their resources to acquire land trading routes while the Europeans were using their resources to control the seas by building powerful Navy's. Guess who is ruling who today.

Central Asia will eventually be controlled by the ones who control the Indian Ocean. Either the central Asians have to come down and invade and take their border to the sea (which I doubt will happen because central Asian idiot like yourself have to much hatred for each other) or South Asia ie Paki and India will always have influence over Central Asia. Today Afghanistan is the battleground for this struggle and it looks like that struggle is moving northward. All the US did was just slow down that northward movement.

[Bost Bastan News]

Tajiks are just persianized pamirs, you have lost your language for farsi. Tajik are a very recent term that is given to you by others.

Baghdad being built by tajiks. that's a funny.

Who Tajiks are or not are, that´s a case for themselves and those antrophologists like Mr. Ashraf Ghani and those historians with knowledge, not some nationalists with short-comings. Like Pashtuns, Tajiks as well have different tribal origin. Fars, Balkh Kabul Herat maybe even Koord. To be rational and historical correct the word ''Fars'' was used by greecs for the first time calling many tribes ruled by a house ruling in the province farsis. Christians called all Muslims Otomans. The same goes for Pashtuns. Indians called all Muslims once Pathans living in Pakistan or India despite their different origins (Uzbek, Tajik, Pashtun, Iranians, Turki). Do I claim Hazaras are pure Mongols, or Uzbeks are pure half-Mongol and half Arab? No.. Many ''Pashtuns'' are also just ''Pashtunized'' (Ghilzai, Wardaks, Banochi, Barakzi, Yusufzi, Afridis, maybe Safis, Gabrkhil, Mohmands, Kakar (islamized and Pashtunized Gakkar/Gujjars/Kakkar from Peshawar valley - ''different names'', describing the same ancient people) and so on...) ... the real and only Afghans (historically) are the Durranis, the ''Al-Abdal''... beside that people´s identity is described by the language and culture they belong to. A Panjabi born into Pashtun culture and society will be one day a Pashtun.. a Pashtun born into Panjabi society will be one day a Panjabi. Language and culture is everything that give you an identity. However, I don´t care what or who other people are. I care what and who I am myself.. why should I sniff the coffee of other people? That´s something for people who themself don´t have anything to be proud of so they want other people don´t having those thing as well. You should distance yourself from any kind of nationalism. It makes your heart black and sick. Frustrates you. Nationalism, specially fake nationalism (means being nationalist based on wrong principles or wrong or fake reasons) is shirk but being a patriot as I am is okay. But I am not a Pashtun patriot but first I am an Afghan patriot loving all Afghan tribes, then I am a Pashtun and then I am a proud Muslim. First more become a civil person. Nothing is better than being a human-being with right principles. This world has too much hate ...