Why have Tajiks always supported foreigners ?

[Tiger Khan]

Tajiks and Punjabies have never seen power... Now after creation of Pakistan Punjabies due to their shear numbers and Tajiks due to American backing has seen power the first time in their miserable history.. So they do not know how to handle them... With powers comes responsibility .. Pashtuns and Baluchs has seen power and know how to handle it (It has become part of their culture maybe).

Al Afghani is not a Pashtun.. he is a merassi... o I mean Tajik..

Lol actually, I really don't hate Tajiks and Punjabies either.. as long as their is justice.. Tajiks have lost their way.. they do not understand the repercussions of supporting invaders.. maybe that is why God will never give them power.. Also remember tajiks are not more than 18% of the population of Afghanistan.. keep telling urselves that wardak is Tajik, Farah is Tajik.. Ghazni is Tajik, Badghais is Tajik.. lool..

[Kushan Prince]

I concur with what SIK is saying. If one goes far enough into the history of the tajiks, you will see how their preceders the Sodghians, had surrendered to tons of invaders like Alexander, the persians, turkic nomads and finally the soviets. Even the ones in Afghanistan who are far away from the kinsmen in Tajikistan have kept this practise from their ancestral tajik homeland. Yet now they want to karzai to sign the BSA and practically sell Afghanistan to the U.S.

You might as well compare them to the french, they also have a norm of being behigrats like tajiks.

[randolph85]

what is funny though is that its the pashtun politicians most publicly supporting the bsa because they think if the taliban come back, their fiefdoms will be the first to fall. tajiks probably figure by then they will at least have a fighting chance after the taliban have been weakened from taking over the east and south before they head west and north.

[ډګروال]

what is funny though is that its the pashtun politicians most publicly supporting the bsa because they think if the taliban come back, their fiefdoms will be the first to fall. tajiks probably figure by then they will at least have a fighting chance after the taliban have been weakened from taking over the east and south before they head west and north.

your observation is false like the claim in the title of the thread.
there have been "leaders " from various afghan ethnicities involved in the government and the process.

for example
Sayaf is anti peace talks ,along with amrulah saleh,ahmad zia masood,Atmal,Ismail Khan .

in media most of the staunch supporters of BSA are former Northern aliance members ,passed as "Karpo"n"karshenas" .

most of this has to do with lack of patriotism among people in position of power.


Karzai and his cabinet is a mix.

there are pro BSA camp and there are those who want the conditions met and than there are those who are anti BSA.

[randolph85]

your observation is false like the claim in the title of the thread.
there have been "leaders " from various afghan ethnicities involved in the government and the process.

for example
Sayaf is anti peace talks ,along with amrulah saleh,ahmad zia masood,Atmal,Ismail Khan .

in media most of the staunch supporters of BSA are former Northern aliance members ,passed as "Karpo"n"karshenas" .

most of this has to do with lack of patriotism among people in position of power.


Karzai and his cabinet is a mix.

there are pro BSA camp and there are those who want the conditions met and than there are those who are anti BSA.

i should of mentioned that it is pashtun politicians most recently being vocal in support of the bsa. everyone already knows the position of the northern alliance, now daudzai and gul agha are begging for this thing to be signed, along with pashtun generals in the military. besides the hezbi candidate, all presidential candidates support it with all but 1 candidate being non pashtun from what i know. there are so many people within the government supporting the bsa, that its a shorter list of names who don't support it.

[khushal]

i should of mentioned that it is pashtun politicians most recently being vocal in support of the bsa. everyone already knows the position of the northern alliance, now daudzai and gul agha are begging for this thing to be signed, along with pashtun generals in the military. besides the hezbi candidate, all presidential candidates support it with all but 1 candidate being non pashtun from what i know. there are so many people within the government supporting the bsa, that its a shorter list of names who don't support it.

That's the power of US lobbying. They don't represent the afghan people but the US lobbyists. The ones against it have taken action by shutting down US ads on TV and now have even released prisoners.

[randolph85]

That's the power of US lobbying. They don't represent the afghan people but the US lobbyists. The ones against it have taken action by shutting down US ads on TV and now have even released prisoners.

These actions are by karzai's orders, probably with khoram in his ear. if US lobbying can turn pashtun politicians into puppets, then its not money we should blame but our own. the tajiks would not be so bold either if it weren't for US money. when it comes to puppetry, ethnicity is nothing and the dollar is everything.

i don't know what karzais game is here but he dug himself into a hole when he convened a jirga full of pro occupation types and then did a wwe heel turn when he became the bad guy by turning against the entire process and agreement.

now by saying he will let his successor, all of whom beg for the bsa, to decide on the issue he is basically making his position powerless.

he seems like an alcoholic that says one thing and then wakes up the next day thinking wtf did i really say that??

[Shah-i-Kot]

what is funny though is that its the pashtun politicians most publicly supporting the bsa because they think if the taliban come back, their fiefdoms will be the first to fall. tajiks probably figure by then they will at least have a fighting chance after the taliban have been weakened from taking over the east and south before they head west and north.

Can you give sources about who these Pashtun politicians are?

The majority of the few "Pashtuns" in the Karzai regime are nearly all Western expatriates. Having said that, the whole government/security set up in Kabul is dominated by Tajiks. Bismillah Mohammadi- head of security, is Tajik. To put it in perspective, in his last trip to Afghanistan, US defense secretary made it a point to meet Mohammadi, and not to meet Karzai.

[Shah-i-Kot]

Being a mix of Pashtun, Tajik, arab afghan (yes they exist) and Uzbeki I can say this thread is pretty disgusting. Lets leave ethnic differences and aim for a society based on Islam completely.

Ethnic nationalism in itself is wrong, and do not get the wrong impression simply because a such a topic is being presented

When the majority of the ANA is Tajik, and operating alongside US/NATO in Pashtun areas, why should pointing this out be considered disgusting?

Its a fact. Majority of people in the world want to live in peace and harmony, and that includes in Afghanistan. Pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazaras, and Uzbeks common people all want peace.

People want to have peace. Pashtuns are not being given that peace.

[Shah-i-Kot]

your observation is false like the claim in the title of the thread.
there have been "leaders " from various afghan ethnicities involved in the government and the process.

Can you explain how you feel the title of the thread is false/inaccurate?

I am talking about the make up of the Afghan security forces (ANA, ANP) which is majority Tajik. This is a fact.

The parliament is dominated by Tajiks, and this parliament is pro-BSA. The Karzai regime is dominated by Tajiks.

Its not news that all these representatives are not really representing the Afghan people.

[Kushan Prince]

Can you give sources about who these Pashtun politicians are?

The majority of the few "Pashtuns" in the Karzai regime are nearly all Western expatriates. Having said that, the whole government/security set up in Kabul is dominated by Tajiks. Bismillah Mohammadi- head of security, is Tajik. To put it in perspective, in his last trip to Afghanistan, US defense secretary made it a point to meet Mohammadi, and not to meet Karzai.

Exactly.

His whole cabinet is filled with panjsheris yet the whole blame goes on pashtuns just because karzai is the man in power who just happens to be pashtun. People here are fooling themselves, they should now know that pashtuns do not like being occupied by a bunch of yanks, even if it will be a few thousand soldiers it just won't feel right and they will still feel threatened. Therefore the masses are against it and politicians don't count, they are doing it for USA not the citizens.

If the BSA does get signed, lets just say that history will repeat itself and the tajiks will be the first ones to kiss americas feet and offer them chai.

[randolph85]

Can you give sources about who these Pashtun politicians are?

The majority of the few "Pashtuns" in the Karzai regime are nearly all Western expatriates. Having said that, the whole government/security set up in Kabul is dominated by Tajiks. Bismillah Mohammadi- head of security, is Tajik. To put it in perspective, in his last trip to Afghanistan, US defense secretary made it a point to meet Mohammadi, and not to meet Karzai.

Karzai's regime or cabinet is ethnically well represented unlike the armed forces, but the military is not a strong institution in the country so politically it is not as big of an issue as many make it seem today.

all tajiks in karzais cabinet in top positions support the bsa, as do all top pashtuns except arghandwal who is hezb i islami and khoram his closest advisor who is also hezb i islami.

as for sources, you simple have to google these names with the term "bsa" along with it to find articles with these people voicing their support.

[khushal]

These actions are by karzai's orders, probably with khoram in his ear. if US lobbying can turn pashtun politicians into puppets, then its not money we should blame but our own. the tajiks would not be so bold either if it weren't for US money. when it comes to puppetry, ethnicity is nothing and the dollar is everything.

i don't know what karzais game is here but he dug himself into a hole when he convened a jirga full of pro occupation types and then did a wwe heel turn when he became the bad guy by turning against the entire process and agreement.

now by saying he will let his successor, all of whom beg for the bsa, to decide on the issue he is basically making his position powerless.

he seems like an alcoholic that says one thing and then wakes up the next day thinking wtf did i really say that??

You are correct. Ethnicity is nothing and the dollar is everything. Pashtuns can be bought, they are just more expensive than Tajiks. America can convince tajiks more easily than Pashtun just because of their societies make up. The two most powerful tajiks, fahim and atta, are basically feudal lords who own their people because they own the land that they live on. What Pashtun can you name that has that much power over his people. Karzai or any other Pashtun has no power over his people because they are not from a feudal society. America must go to each individual Pashtun or masher and buy him off which is impossible. This is Americas problem with pashtuns. Because they can not use soft power(lobbying) with them, they have no choice but to use hard power(military) with them.

So in essence, Pashtuns can be bought but the price is too high.


As for Karzai, because he is powerless, he is doing what he can to have some control.

[khushal]

Karzai's regime or cabinet is ethnically well represented unlike the armed forces, but the military is not a strong institution in the country so politically it is not as big of an issue as many make it seem today.

all tajiks in karzais cabinet in top positions support the bsa, as do all top pashtuns except arghandwal who is hezb i islami and khoram his closest advisor who is also hezb i islami.

as for sources, you simple have to google these names with the term "bsa" along with it to find articles with these people voicing their support.

One must look at how Afghanistan would look like with the BSA post 2014. You are going to have a chaotic Pashtun area where US forces will conduct special ops and bombings with a dictator like warlord ruled Tajik and hazara area which eventually will probably lead to a fragmented Afghanistan if not officially, then technically.

Without the BSA, if all American troops leave. The ANA will eventually fragment into ethnic militias depending on what the US would do. Pashtun militias most likely would join the Taliban and hazara and Tajik militias would cooperate in repelling Pashtun attacks. Since Pakistan has de facto control over supply lines, the north would be blockaded and eventually it would fall. I don't see any way where they can stand on their feet fo too long. Where are they going to get their supplies. If the US depended on pakistani supply lines to keep Taliban at bay, how on earth is the NA going to survive.

This is why the BSA only prolongs Pashtun misery.

the best option for the US is to work with the Taliban. The policy they are implementing presently will never work. I just don't see it.

[vinyard80]

Exactly.

His whole cabinet is filled with panjsheris yet the whole blame goes on pashtuns just because karzai is the man in power who just happens to be pashtun. People here are fooling themselves, they should now know that pashtuns do not like being occupied by a bunch of yanks, even if it will be a few thousand soldiers it just won't feel right and they will still feel threatened. Therefore the masses are against it and politicians don't count, they are doing it for USA not the citizens.

If the BSA does get signed, lets just say that history will repeat itself and the tajiks will be the first ones to kiss americas feet and offer them chai.

Which panjshiris? Please, name more than one panjshiri in Karzais gabinet. I only know Fahim and Bismillah Khan. Most of tajiks in his cabinet are non panjshiris.

Please, elaborate.