Divide pakistan to eliminate terrorism

[hk1992]

its good to know I amnt the only person with this viewpoint(I was starting to think I had delusions of grandeur). This is why I support the taliban, they may not be perfect, but at least theyre muslim and theyre pashtun and they try to implement islam, if at times wrongly, does that mean we should disown them when we allow traitors like karzai to make even grosser betrayals against islam and the pashtuns and because the west tells us that its ok,so we forgive him. If pashtuns themselves help reform the taliban they will become a perfect islamic state as they are made up of pashtuns and they will by and large pursue islams interest with pashtun leadership, they also have a pre-existing organisational structure which is invaluable to us. On the other hand the karzai regime is an american regime even if the pashtuns try to reform it along islamic guidelines the same thing will happen to them that happened to the egyptians, as the american will never allow true islam in our lands. Therefore in my opinion the only way to achieve our old empire is through the taliban and by seperating those pashtuns who are against islamic/pashtun principles from those who are for it. secondly we must promote higher learning among pashtuns but not for stupid and aimless things like arts and music but in technology that can enhance our ability to project our military strength in the region. The important thing to realize is that the west did not become as rich and affluent as it is today through education and western values but through the accrual of military technology which put it ahead of other nations and allowed them to colonize and usurp the wealth of those nations-this is the one and only reason for the Wests affluence and also the reason for there decline as there ability to usurp the wealth of other nations decreases as other nations also develop to a level which has made the infantry soldiers around the entire world equal in terms of weaponry. In other words we must place our nation on a millitary development program along with providing fundamental services to our people such as healthcare, education, security and a judiciary, no money should be wasted on frivolous programmes such as the construction of large buildings or monuments, building large shopping malls in excess of the peoples needs or large and unnecessary social welfare payments to young unemployed men. Social welfare payments should only be paid to the widowed, disabled, sick, orphans. With such an model I believe we would be able to easily advance our millitary technology by keeping down our domestic costs and also by demanding the construction of military production facilities as a key demand for any nation that wishes to extract our abundant resources or leverage any degree of control over our foreign policy ie oil pipelines. As resources around the world become scarcer the worlds last true treasure chest of resources unavailable to the west is Afghanistan and the other central asian countries therefore the price I suggest is not as steep as you might think. This is also how pakistan built most of its military industrial complex or we could just conquer pakistan and replicate its facilities on a much larger scale. As you can see its not as hopeless as you might think. The key to building a strong military lies in conquering punjab and sindh and using whats there for ourselves, this is why I believe the first target of the pashtun people should be to take over pakistan militarily. This is also why the west is so afraid of pakistan falling prey to the taliban not because it has nuclear weapons but because of there ability to produce everything from main battle tanks to J17 fighter jets. Imagine such a millitary industrial complex under the control of pashtuns. I can understand why the the very thought of it gives the west nightmares.

[Pakwatan]

yet your ancestors were mostly likely hindus Chaudary Saab

I am not saying we should merge with India or hindus, but you painting all of them as one is exactly what people do to muslims when they call all muslim as terrorists. What happened in 47 was a tragedy, of course partition itself was responsible for it.

Also sorry to say this, Pakistani Punjabis need to get a reality check, you guys are not persians, arabs, central asians. You are Indian, with a totally Indic culture. Open your eyes and look at your history and stop living with a fake identity, no wonder pakistan is such a confused nation

My ancestors were most likely Hindus, but that doesn't negate the fact that I am Muslim. I really don't engage in ancestor worship.

You've raised an interesting point though. Punjabis are not Persians, nor Arabs, or Central Asians.

We Punjabis are Jatts, Gujjars, Arains, Awans, Pathans, Rajputs, Gahkars, Daudpotas, Gardezis, and ect. The tribes are endless. Punjab has always been a melting pot, so while I have no reservation about Punjabi being referred to as an Indic language, you are incorrect when you say "Indic culture".

Of course the majority of Punjabis are Indic, because we are the sons of the soil; The inheritors of the Indus Valley Civilization.

If you are insinuating that Pakistani Punjabi culture is the same as Indian Punjabi culture, then you are way off, my friend.

Our poets, our athletes, our philosophers are all very different. We have an Islamic Sufi culture, while the Indian Punjabis have their Hindu culture.

Muslims have always been the majority of Punjab when Islam came to the land.

Our poets Baba Bulleh Shah:

Waris Shah:


They've had such an impact that the Sikhs consider some of our Sufis as their religious figures.

The greatest wrestler of Punjab:


Known as Sher-e-Punjab, The Great Gama, and Rustam-e-Zaman Gama Pehlwan.

We Muslim Punjabis have the richest culture among the Hindus and Sikhs.

So please sir, don't equate the two cultures.

I find it highly offensive if you think that our culture is drunk bearded guys jumping up and down in pink and yellow turbans like this:
Daler Mehndi - Tunak Tunak Tun - YouTube

[afghan]

[MENTION=13640]Pakwatan[/MENTION]
Lol you s0 called heroes that you have mentioned were born in India Panjabi. distancing yourself from india punjab but proud of their intellectuals and heroes. Lollll

[Karachi]

My ancestors were most likely Hindus, but that doesn't negate the fact that I am Muslim. I really don't engage in ancestor worship.

You've raised an interesting point though. Punjabis are not Persians, nor Arabs, or Central Asians.

We Punjabis are Jatts, Gujjars, Arains, Awans, Pathans, Rajputs, Gahkars, Daudpotas, Gardezis, and ect. The tribes are endless. Punjab has always been a melting pot, so while I have no reservation about Punjabi being referred to as an Indic language, you are incorrect when you say "Indic culture".

Of course the majority of Punjabis are Indic, because we are the sons of the soil; The inheritors of the Indus Valley Civilization.

If you are insinuating that Pakistani Punjabi culture is the same as Indian Punjabi culture, then you are way off, my friend.

Our poets, our athletes, our philosophers are all very different. We have an Islamic Sufi culture, while the Indian Punjabis have their Hindu culture.

Muslims have always been the majority of Punjab when Islam came to the land.

Our poets Baba Bulleh Shah:

Waris Shah:


They've had such an impact that the Sikhs consider some of our Sufis as their religious figures.

The greatest wrestler of Punjab:


Known as Sher-e-Punjab, The Great Gama, and Rustam-e-Zaman Gama Pehlwan.

We Muslim Punjabis have the richest culture among the Hindus and Sikhs.

So please sir, don't equate the two cultures.

I find it highly offensive if you think that our culture is drunk bearded guys jumping up and down in pink and yellow turbans like this:
Daler Mehndi - Tunak Tunak Tun - YouTube

Most of the groups you mentioned mostly have hindu origins, including your own tribe

Also while I agree that muslims in the subcontinent follow a subset of different culture and we have different values/practices, our main stream culture/language is still the same (Indic)

[hk1992]

People have to realise that by so vehemently responding to such criticism they only prove it to begin with, if there is something that you know is untrue and everyone knows is untrue then you wouldnt bother trying to respond to such a ludicrous statement but if in fact there is truth to a statement which is a secret source of shame or humiliation for a certain group of individuals they will strongly react to it thus only giving credence to the statement.

Finally what I don't understand is why are there even any punjabis on this forum they should know by now that the vast majority of pashtuns on this forum strongly dislike them and would prefer if they weren't here because if this is an attempt by them to in some way influence pakistani pashtuns to remain loyal to the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan", a true bastion of democracy and secular law, then from what I can see they haven't been very successful, I know alot of punjabi people around where I live and I can swear to you this that as a general rule punjabis are over the moon when one of there own(by there own I mean punjabis) are successful in anything, but if a pashtun is ever even slightly successful they are all gnashing their teeth in frustration and secretly wishing him ill-luck in the future. For all the talk of pakistani patriotism, punjabis are really the ones least patriotic to the ideals they try to impose on pashtuns and which pashtuns loyally followed for several decades but the last 10 years have shown us who are friends are and who are enemies are. Friends don't allow foreign nations to bomb your children and then follow it up with a full scale military operation of there own.

[randolph85]

I don't see any problem with non Pashtuns here, I can find more common ground with these people than I can with the likes of Badlun and others who are Pashtun and pretend to be Muslim or outright condemn Islam.

Everyone loves their nation and will defend it against attacks whether warranted or not, Afg or Paki. This pride in foreign made concepts of nationhood, some more than others, have made us enemies. The Pakis here have been respectful and have contributed to the forum which is more than I can say for some other Afghan members. With the olive branch being extended and that being said, **** the Paki state. You didn't think I would be barfing out all roses did you?

[ډګروال]

I don't see any problem with non Pashtuns here, I can find more common ground with these people than I can with the likes of Badlun and others who are Pashtun and pretend to be Muslim or outright condemn Islam.

Everyone loves their nation and will defend it against attacks whether warranted or not, Afg or Paki. This pride in foreign made concepts of nationhood, some more than others, have made us enemies. The Pakis here have been respectful and have contributed to the forum which is more than I can say for some other Afghan members. With the olive branch being extended and that being said, **** the Paki state. You didn't think I would be barfing out all roses did you?

lol
havent you seen the insults hurled by pakwatan and bannu mazdigar let alone if we count gadoonwal as paki.

[hk1992]

I dont mind them either but I do mind there insistent pro-pakistan stance despite the obvious crimes of that country and I also agree about badlun but at the same time its a good thing we recognise those pashtuns like badlun and separate ourselves from them as ive said before its time for muslims to pick a side and badlun has picked his, which as far as im concerned makes him non-pashtun but the problem with punjabis is that they can come on these forms and pretend to be great believers in the islamic ideals however in real life when you meet them youre hard pressed to find one who actually cares about islam. The very fact that they perpetuate and support pakistans crimes are proof to that which in my opinion is worse than badlun as at least he doesnt lie about his religious affiliation whereas most punjabis are closet secularists, which can be far more damaging to more vulnerable muslims, who can easily fall prey to there false piety and attempts at preying on other peoples sympathies.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

lol
havent you seen the insults hurled by pakwatan and bannu mazdigar let alone if we count gadoonwal as paki.

You are right about Bannu, Gadoonwal and pakwatan. But if we compare pakis with afghans, we cannot deny that pakis are far more gentle and polite.

The afghans here use profanity all the time. Especially the pashtun nationalists.

[tor_khan]

My ancestors were most likely Hindus, but that doesn't negate the fact that I am Muslim. I really don't engage in ancestor worship.

You've raised an interesting point though. Punjabis are not Persians, nor Arabs, or Central Asians.

We Punjabis are Jatts, Gujjars, Arains, Awans, Pathans, Rajputs, Gahkars, Daudpotas, Gardezis, and ect. The tribes are endless. Punjab has always been a melting pot, so while I have no reservation about Punjabi being referred to as an Indic language, you are incorrect when you say "Indic culture".

Of course the majority of Punjabis are Indic, because we are the sons of the soil; The inheritors of the Indus Valley Civilization.

If you are insinuating that Pakistani Punjabi culture is the same as Indian Punjabi culture, then you are way off, my friend.

Our poets, our athletes, our philosophers are all very different. We have an Islamic Sufi culture, while the Indian Punjabis have their Hindu culture.

Muslims have always been the majority of Punjab when Islam came to the land.

Our poets Baba Bulleh Shah:

Waris Shah:


They've had such an impact that the Sikhs consider some of our Sufis as their religious figures.

The greatest wrestler of Punjab:


Known as Sher-e-Punjab, The Great Gama, and Rustam-e-Zaman Gama Pehlwan.

We Muslim Punjabis have the richest culture among the Hindus and Sikhs.

So please sir, don't equate the two cultures.

I find it highly offensive if you think that our culture is drunk bearded guys jumping up and down in pink and yellow turbans like this:
Daler Mehndi - Tunak Tunak Tun - YouTube

Daler Mehndi does his job which is bhangra. Punjabis either side of the Wagah follow this type of music.

But you are deluding yourself when you make out that Western Punjabis are culturally superior to their Eastern brothers.

They after all read and write their original script, whilst in Pakistan this is unacceptable because Punjabis have been forcibly separated from their past. You have had a mythological history painted of yourself that mixes Arab, Afghan and Persian conquest in India as if this was your own history. No matter how you layer it, a Punjabi in Pakistan understands a Punjabi in India better than he understands a Baloch or a tribal Pashtun. Even your religious practices - that you call Sufiism - is out of synch with the revivalist Islam that is characteristic of the middle east. You are more influenced by Hinduism than you admit. Muslim Punjabis are essentially in denial about the truth.

[Pakwatan]

Daler Mehndi does his job which is bhangra. Punjabis either side of the Wagah follow this type of music.

But you are deluding yourself when you make out that Western Punjabis are culturally superior to their Eastern brothers.

They after all read and write their original script, whilst in Pakistan this is unacceptable because Punjabis have been forcibly separated from their past. You have had a mythological history painted of yourself that mixes Arab, Afghan and Persian conquest in India as if this was your own history. No matter how you layer it, a Punjabi in Pakistan understands a Punjabi in India better than he understands a Baloch or a tribal Pashtun. Even your religious practices - that you call Sufiism - is out of synch with the revivalist Islam that is characteristic of the middle east. You are more influenced by Hinduism than you admit. Muslim Punjabis are essentially in denial about the truth.

Comparing bhangra to Heer Ranjha is almost blasphemy.

They may write in their Hindu script, but we have always used Shahmukhi.


My point is that Punjab has always been mix of different people. What is an indigenous Punjabi?

A Jatt or a Gujjar?

The definition of Punjabi is one that lives in between 5 rivers. It's definitely not a classification for a race. Currently Indians are doabis. They only have 2 rivers.

Even the birth place of the founder of the Afghan nation Ahmad Shah Abdali is disputed between Multan and Herat.


I have no problem admitting that their is a hindu influence in Punjab. Punjabi zaban is essentially branched from Hindi/Sanskrit.

My last point is that Sufism was not born in Punjab or current day Pakistan. It came from Iran and Afghanistan.

[Karachi]

Comparing bhangra to Heer Ranjha is almost blasphemy.

They may write in their Hindu script, but we have always used Shahmukhi.


My point is that Punjab has always been mix of different people. What is an indigenous Punjabi?

A Jatt or a Gujjar?

The definition of Punjabi is one that lives in between 5 rivers. It's definitely not a classification for a race. Currently Indians are doabis. They only have 2 rivers.

Even the birth place of the founder of the Afghan nation Ahmad Shah Abdali is disputed between Multan and Herat.


I have no problem admitting that their is a hindu influence in Punjab. Punjabi zaban is essentially branched from Hindi/Sanskrit.

My last point is that Sufism was not born in Punjab or current day Pakistan. It came from Iran and Afghanistan.

What is a definition of a race? what you are saying about Punjab could be applied to any place in South Asia or even the world for that matter. What determines one's identity is language, culture, foods, lifestyle, clothing, attitude, looks, history etc...

^ in all of those things Punjabis are Indic/South Asians. There is hardly any difference in cities like Lahore, Amritsar and even Delhi

The only difference that may come is religious, however that doesn't change your identity and who you are.

[Pakwatan]

What is a definition of a race? what you are saying about Punjab could be applied to any place in South Asia or even the world for that matter. What determines one's identity is language, culture, foods, lifestyle, clothing, attitude, looks, history etc...

^ in all of those things Punjabis are Indic/South Asians. There is hardly any difference in cities like Lahore, Amritsar and even Delhi

The only difference that may come is religious, however that doesn't change your identity and who you are.

My friend, you find me one Indian Arain, even one. I honestly don't believe there are any that exist in India??

[tor_khan]

Heer Ranjha is part of a pre-partition shared history. You cannot claim that this has some to do with being separated.

Again you choose to only believe a warped version of history. The fact is mixed or not, ethnographers tend to classify people by linguistic groups. That makes the whole of Punjab Indian. If not listening to Bollywood on their iPods, middle class Lahori youth play Bassant and dance the bhangra. This does not remind me of Arabs or Central Asia.

[Karachi]

My friend, you find me one Indian Arain, even one. I honestly don't believe there are any that exist in India??

Arians were originally Rajput hindu Indians, Rajputs exists everywhere in North India

Also the Arians in Pakistan, many of them actually migrated from India in 47, even you said that

Also there are numerous communities in north India, Punjab/Uttarpardesh who are connected with arians

This is from the article

"There are a number of communities in North India, that claim kinship with the Arain of Punjab. The Arain of Delhi claim to be descended from Arains who settled in Delhi during the rule of the Mughal Emperor Akbar.[15]
Another community that is connected with the Arain are the Rayeen, who are a Muslim tribe found in Bareilly, Pilibhit, Udham Singh Nagar, Nainital, Rampur, Bijnor and Saharanpur districts of Uttar Pradesh, India."