Pashtun Mullah

[DSM0305]

Pashtun Mullahs (Omar, Haqqanis) protect their people and kill Farsiwan. Farsiwan Mullahs protect their people and kill Pashtuns.

X mullahs kill Y, etc.

Ethnic violence has been going on since the last 50 years. Nothing good has come out of Afghanistan.

Tell me my dear friend. How old are you? If I had to guess you are a teenager, am I right?

The way you portray the situation in Afghanistan is a clearly sign of your age. I urge you to read upon Afghanistan history and understand the current situation. By the way, by read upon, I do not mean random article on google. Find real unbiased books and start educating yourself regarding Afghanistan. You be surprised that ethnic violence was and is non existent. Even todays conflict aren't ethnic based.
It is a few people from western countries who have raised that issue and trying to portray it as such. A few of them even manage to sneak into the Afghan government. Teenage kids like you are the prime victims of that fascist agenda. They wanna mislead you, to create ethnic conflict in the future for real.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

you just figured that out mr. almost phd?

I was trying to give Badlun a fair chance without being knee jerk and conspiratorial

but after he tried to convince people here to make zina/fornication legal .....I knew he wasn't about being Progressive but against Islam itself

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Pashtunwali in its pristine (pre-Islam or pre-Islamism of 1979) has nothing to do with Wahabism. There is no theology, no monotheism, no concept of God, no concept of Islamic metaphysics, no forms of worship recommended by Islam and no religious bigotry and radicalism propagated by Wahabism.

Pashtunwali is a social and cultural phenomenon with some political elements like Jirga and mythology like deo Turaban and its folklore like Adam khan durranai, sheralam memonai, yousaf khan sherbano etc. Nothing religious there while Wahabism is pure religion.

I have one fundamental question from you. Can you clearly say what is Islam for you and what is Islamism? Just few lines whenever you have time. For me Qur'an and Sunna in its literal sense is Wahabism or Islamism while Islam is only the five pillars and morality but not everything written in Quran and Hadith literally.

If you think Islam is a complete code of life and everything in Qur'an and Hadith is Islam then there is no difference between Wahabism/Islamism/Talibanism and Islam. Then you cannot prove Wahabis and others wrong as all their arguments are based on Qur'an and Hadith.

Pashtunwali is Pashtuns Native grown version of Wahhabism....I didn't say it has to do with Wahhabism


Pashtuns came up with Pashtunwali on their own but the similarities wth Wahhabism is unmistakable. The hatred of women that Wahhabism promotes is in Pashtunwali.

Pashtunwali teaches men to think of women as property and objects rather than granting women the right of agency and self determination.

Pashtunwali also lacks Metaphysics because it is Secular, Secularism does not deal with Metaphysics. However in terms of lifestyle, behavior of extreme forms of male chauvanism, excessive use of aggressive tactics such as tribal wars and rivalries, is parallel to the extreme aggressiveness of Wahhabism.

The things like Adam Khan and Durkhanai and mythological stories is not Pashtunwali but Pashtun mythologies; which may or may mot be used as a vehicle for Pashtunwali. Pashtunwali is a behavioral and framework for the traditional Pashtun culture.

We don't pay attention to Wahhabism for its theology; we pay attention to Wahhabism for its practice and application. That's why Pashtunwali is actually the Pashtun version of Wahhabism.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Do you really believe this or are you just trying your best to use false narrative to demonize Pashtuns.

Dude,
What the Saudis practice and pashtunwali are completely at odds.
1. having some foreign male drive your woman around town is against pashtunwali. pashtunahs drive cars in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pashtuns don't impose their version of pashtunwali on others like Saudis do.

pashtunwali itself does not restrict inheritance. Its up to the house hold.

Stop making things up.

I see your point; but both practices are born of the idea that women can't do things on their own or shouldn't be allowed to; especially things which grant women freedom of women. And the reason behind it is the fear of what women will do if granted freedom of mobility and free agency.

so that's why Pashtunwali and Wahhabism are really different versions of the same thing.

[Badlun]

RTR
You did not reply to my query , the difference between Islam and wahabism?
Where wahabism violates Qur'an and Hadith if we take them literally.

I do not believe in any thing in the so called Islam if it is beyond its morality, spirituality and five fundamental pillars. I am not against Shahadah, Prayers, helping poor, hajj, fasting but the rest for me are secondary, non essential and not the core of religion. My definition of Muslim is the one who believes in the five pillars.

Pashtun women were freer before Islam or Islamism. Religion made them house bound. Pashtunwali code of honor should be modified in the light of modern developments and emergence of human rights.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I have one fundamental question from you. Can you clearly say what is Islam for you and what is Islamism? Just few lines whenever you have time. For me Qur'an and Sunna in its literal sense is Wahabism or Islamism while Islam is only the five pillars and morality but not everything written in Quran and Hadith literally.

If you think Islam is a complete code of life and everything in Qur'an and Hadith is Islam then there is no difference between Wahabism/Islamism/Talibanism and Islam. Then you cannot prove Wahabis and others wrong as all their arguments are based on Qur'an and Hadith.

Sure I'll do my best.

First of all; I don't even really care for these terms like Islamism because they're words made up by Imperialists as a way of trying to belittle views they feel threatened by and that is their coping mechanism is to invent these words to compartmentalize things to very superficial definitions because they lack a deep and nuanced understanding.

Secondly; I don't take the Qur'an and Hadith literally about everything; I use historical and sociological understanding of them to determine which aspects should be applied in which circumstances.

Thirdly; I believe Islam is a COMPLETE way of life; yes I do, in fact Islam deals with issues not even discovered by modern society yet; for example issues regarding the mental dimensions of human interactions with their surroundings and environments and how those impact each other.

The 2nd and 3rd points do not contradict each other; because You do not need to have Be Literal of everything in the Qur'an and Hadith to apply Islam as a complete way of life. IN FACT It is having a FLUID understanding of Islam which allows people to understand how Islam is complete because it allows one to make relevant decisions using Islamic Procedures and Principles and navigating those decisions by those ideas.

I follow the Middle Path (Sirat Al Mustaqim) between what People like yourself argue and what Wahhabism argue.

To me Wahhabism is one extreme ....you are another extreme. All extremes are counter productive

[RevolutionThroughReason]

RTR


Pashtun women were freer before Islam or Islamism. Religion made them house bound. Pashtunwali code of honor should be modified in the light of modern developments and emergence of human rights.

The only evidence of Pashtuns we have comes from the 10th century and beyond; and if we go by history of Soghdians and Parthians and other peoples that live in the regions where Pashtuns currently inhabit; Women were seen as property and didn't have free agency we know this because women of these societies were seen as property. Only Buddhist women had some freedom; but only if they became Nun; which requires one to reject worldly life so in a way they lacked freedom there too but it applied to men and women. Outside of Buddhist monastary, there was practically no right of agency for women.

By saying Islam restricts women's freedom you're showing negativity to Islam. and thus reveal evidence of being Anti Islam. because Islam acknowledges women's right of agency. thereby it would be logically impossible for women to have had this in the region prior to Islam.

[Badlun]

Sure I'll do my best.

First of all; I don't even really care for these terms like Islamism because they're words made up by Imperialists as a way of trying to belittle views they feel threatened by and that is their coping mechanism is to invent these words to compartmentalize things to very superficial definitions because they lack a deep and nuanced understanding.

Secondly; I don't take the Qur'an and Hadith literally about everything; I use historical and sociological understanding of them to determine which aspects should be applied in which circumstances.

Thirdly; I believe Islam is a COMPLETE way of life; yes I do, in fact Islam deals with issues not even discovered by modern society yet; for example issues regarding the mental dimensions of human interactions with their surroundings and environments and how those impact each other.

The 2nd and 3rd points do not contradict each other; because You do not need to have Be Literal of everything in the Qur'an and Hadith to apply Islam as a complete way of life. IN FACT It is having a FLUID understanding of Islam which allows people to understand how Islam is complete because it allows one to make relevant decisions using Islamic Procedures and Principles and navigating those decisions by those ideas.

I follow the Middle Path (Sirat Al Mustaqim) between what People like yourself argue and what Wahhabism argue.

To me Wahhabism is one extreme ....you are another extreme. All extremes are counter productive

Then why are you against wahabism and Salafism? They also think Islam is a complete way of life. Taliban struggle to bring every thing under Islam.

It means there can be no Pashtunwali, no Pashtun culture, no democracy, no music, no fine arts, no modern political thought, no philosophy, no science, no metaphysics etc because all these things are not purely Islamic and as islam is a complete code of life we have to follow only and only Islam in our politics, economy, culture, education, science, philosophy, art, literature because we do not need any other thing.

Islam gives us every thing. Quran and Hadith is Islam and Quran and Hadith is every thing.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Then why are you against wahabism and Salafism? They also think Islam is a complete way of life. Taliban struggle to bring every thing under Islam.

It means there can be no Pashtunwali, no Pashtun culture, no democracy, no music, no fine arts, no modern political thought, no philosophy, no science, no metaphysics etc because all these things are not purely Islamic and as islam is a complete code of life we have to follow only and only Islam in our politics, economy, culture, education, science, philosophy, art, literature because we do not need any other thing.

Islam gives us every thing. Quran and Hadith is Islam and Quran and Hadith is every thing.

Because neither are doing it correctly; they're going to an extreme....didn't you read my post or did you skim through it because you're getting too emotional?

Islam doesn't mean that there can't be no culture, music and arts. There were Culture, music and arts through out all times of Islamic society. Maybe there would be categories of what would be considered valid forms of art but there is nothing in Islam which actually denies any of these things.

Again you're too uneducated and shallow minded of a thinker. hence you're making a shallow reaction to my post even after I stressed in my post that Extremes are counter prodictive

that tells me you actually don't read anything anyone says but are just tryiing to push your agenda.

You're right though; Islam would put an end to Pashtunwali; Pashtunwali teaches hatred of women and over-use of aggression like in tribal wars and rivalries; why would we keep something like that?

[Badlun]

The only evidence of Pashtuns we have comes from the 10th century and beyond; and if we go by history of Soghdians and Parthians and other peoples that live in the regions where Pashtuns currently inhabit; Women were seen as property and didn't have free agency we know this because women of these societies were seen as property. Only Buddhist women had some freedom; but only if they became Nun; which requires one to reject worldly life so in a way they lacked freedom there too but it applied to men and women. Outside of Buddhist monastary, there was practically no right of agency for women.

By saying Islam restricts women's freedom you're showing negativity to Islam. and thus reveal evidence of being Anti Islam. because Islam acknowledges women's right of agency. thereby it would be logically impossible for women to have had this in the region prior to Islam.

Islam mentioned women to be half of men in evidence and inheritance and Muslims made it for ever and now being divine law , is not amendable and thus Muslim women are half of men till the end of the world.

Islam talked of veil and Muslims are covering their women like live corpses. Prophet mentioned somewhere that woman cannot be head of a state and Muslims now deny women to rule. prophet said that women are naqis ul aqal, and Muslims consider women inferior to men intellectually.

Prophet married many women and a child and Muslims made it sunna and an act of virtue. Quran mentioned that men are superior to men and Muslims took it a divine injunction. Qur'an mentions beating of women and Muslim men make it a habit.

Pashtunwali never mentions these things no where. Thus can be changed if there is a wrong practice but Islam in the hands of Mullah is not amendable and thus fate of Muslim women is decided for ever.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Islam mentioned women to be half of men in evidence and inheritance and Muslims made it for ever and now being divine law , is not amendable and thus Muslim women are half of men till the end of the world.

Islam talked of veil and Muslims are covering their women like live corpses. Prophet mentioned somewhere that woman cannot be head of a state and Muslims now deny women to rule. prophet said that women are naqis ul aqal, and Muslims consider women inferior to men intellectually.

Prophet married many women and a child and Muslims made it sunna and an act of virtue. Quran mentioned that men are superior to men and Muslims took it a divine injunction. Qur'an mentions beating of women and Muslim men make it a habit.

Pashtunwali never mentions these things no where. Thus can be changed if there is a wrong practice but Islam in the hands of Mullah is not amendable and thus fate of Muslim women is decided for ever.

I already disproved your claim in several other posts so I won't get into that again with you But Even if what you're saying is correct that women getting half inheritance means that women were worth half; AT LEAST women were getting inheritance and had value. In Pre-Islamic societies of Aryan rooted cultures like Soghdians, Bactrians and Hephtalites; women received NO Inheritance; which means that Women did not even have a Value.

So Islam with its WORST interpretation is better than Pashtunwali at ITS BEST interpretation; because in Pashtunwali women are not allowed to have an inheritance and therefore means that they don't value women at all ..NOT EVEN Half . However as I said your argument about Islam and half inheritance is n Often projected MYTH which is not correctly understood because people ignore the Islamic Source material.

The Burqa style veiling of women existed long before Islam; Persians and Soghdians used to use this type of veil and Soghdians are the ancestors of Modern Pashtuns according to Anthropologists. But veiling i just a piece of clothing; clothing doesn't make a woman a corpse; what makes a woman a corpse is how she is treated and her rights. Pashunwali doesn't allow women to choose who she can marry, which is a right under Islam. It does not allow her to have her own money and resources; it denies her the right to get educated and gain knowledge, it treats her as a instrument to settle disputes and debts. There are numerous cases where Pashtuns would give their daughters to men just to settle a debt. this is against Islam. But in Pashtunwali; nothing prohibits it.

So Under Islam; women is a living soul wearing a veil, in Pashtunwali, woman is just a corpse wearing a shall. Even if we take your very Superficial and Inaccurate portrayal of Islam we can see by using logic which is better; clearly Islam; Pashtunwali is for less evolved people who act like Monkeys; Islam is for Roshan Fikr ..Enlightened people.

About marriage and polygamy; well According to Evolutionary Biology Polygamy is rooted in the Biological differences between men and women; and since biology is still the same, the only issue with Polygamy is if it is a strain on resources; so it is not an issue of women's rights And the claim that Muhammad(saw) married a child is based on inaccurate understanding of Human social maturation in his society as well as Biological development. This is a claim used by ANTI-Islam not Anti-Islamist

But good; you're revealing yourself now; I should attack Pashtunwali more often; they say if you stomp on the ground, the snakes will show their heads.

[khushal]

I see your point; but both practices are born of the idea that women can't do things on their own or shouldn't be allowed to; especially things which grant women freedom of women. And the reason behind it is the fear of what women will do if granted freedom of mobility and free agency.

so that's why Pashtunwali and Wahhabism are really different versions of the same thing.

I see that your changing your stance here. From your post I get the impression that you believe they are the same in regarding how females are restricted from mobility and free agency.

Even that's false since Pashtun women drive cars, own property, participate in elections and are members in parliaments, there are even pashtunay fighter jet pilots in the PAF, pashtunay work on the farm fields and the kochay tend to their herds out in the open free range. The Burqu is foreign to Pashtuns unlike its similar dress to Saudi version.

More progress needs to be done but progress comes with practical solutions. The Saud regime have institutions and resources that can make all of it practical with a snap of a finger, but the Pashtun society does not. The best example of that is the fact Pashtunay are fighter jet pilots in the PAF and that is so because of its practicality. The reason they drive in certain Pashtun cities is because of its practicality.
It is intellectually dishonest of you to compare the resource rich Saudi regime that have everything available to them but still restrict their females freedoms to how resource poor Pashtun that have been in a state of war for close to 40 years with Superpowers.

[khushal]

Pashtunwali is Pashtuns Native grown version of Wahhabism....I didn't say it has to do with Wahhabism


Pashtuns came up with Pashtunwali on their own but the similarities wth Wahhabism is unmistakable. The hatred of women that Wahhabism promotes is in Pashtunwali.

Pashtunwali teaches men to think of women as property and objects rather than granting women the right of agency and self determination.

Pashtunwali also lacks Metaphysics because it is Secular, Secularism does not deal with Metaphysics. However in terms of lifestyle, behavior of extreme forms of male chauvanism, excessive use of aggressive tactics such as tribal wars and rivalries, is parallel to the extreme aggressiveness of Wahhabism.

The things like Adam Khan and Durkhanai and mythological stories is not Pashtunwali but Pashtun mythologies; which may or may mot be used as a vehicle for Pashtunwali. Pashtunwali is a behavioral and framework for the traditional Pashtun culture.

We don't pay attention to Wahhabism for its theology; we pay attention to Wahhabism for its practice and application. That's why Pashtunwali is actually the Pashtun version of Wahhabism.

Pashtuns did not come up with pashtunwali on their own. it derived from circumstance that have befallen on the people in the region. This is evident on the fact that most people that came to this region pashtunified and Pashtuns that migrated out depashtunified. The people in the area live in a governmentless, taxless free state with no government authority enforcing laws on them or taxing them. Most pashtunwali codes are derived because of this environment.

It is not pashtunwali that teaches men to think of women as property, it is the ignorance of man that does that and this is true in many clutures. My grandmother was the biggest landowner in her village, no one could take it from her. Chauvanism and aggressiveness is not a noble behavior in pashtunwali. Kabur and Ghor are characters that pashtunwali labels as shamelfull and should be undesired.

Also Pashtunwali is adaptive to different situations unlike the Saud regime imposing their will on their people. People debate and talk in a Jirga on how to best tackle a proble as long as does not infringe on the individuals free will.
Sorry to say but you really lack understanding of pashtunwali.

[Shehbaz Khan]

There is nothing wrong for a Pashtun being a Mullah! If by 'Mullah' you mean a person having strong knowledge of Islam and follows it's principles. I see no wrong in it.

Actually the term is 'Mullah' is normally used in Pukhto Poetry for a person who in the name of religion avoids the teachings of the religion itself.

[Badlun]

There is nothing wrong for a Pashtun being a Mullah! If by 'Mullah' you mean a person having strong knowledge of Islam and follows it's principles. I see no wrong in it.

Actually the term is 'Mullah' is normally used in Pukhto Poetry for a person who in the name of religion avoids the teachings of the religion itself.

If you have ever lived in a pure Pashtun society, you will discern that Pashtun and Mullah are two different characters of Pashtun society.

Mullah like cobbler, potter, shopkeeper, mules driver, barber etc is a professional person who calls people for prayers(azan) and who manages the mosque affairs and who leads the congregational prayers.

Thus a Pashtun cannot be a Mullah and a Mullah cannot be a Pashtun ideally. After 1979 yes many Pashtuns are now Mullahs for money and power.