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Originally posted by Levanaye Zalmaye
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The Taliban's salaries came from Islamabad's federal budget. Karzai's government is funded by the US.
The Taliban's foreign affairs were controlled by Islamabad. Karzai's foreign affairs are under US control.
I generally like to put the ball in the other argumentationalist's court. It allows the other to feel confident in his correctness and engage wholeheartedly... it also permits for some over confidence
So lets go with your logic. Karzai's coffers are replete, by his own admission, with bags of money from local powers with a vested interest. You are not illiterate and you know this as well as I do. To date he has admitted bags of money coming in from two sources in the open source media: US and Iran, right?
Where does Islamabad's money emanate from? Who provides economic life support for Pakistan and who equips its military with murdering machines?
So now you will interject by saying... that such an argument barely scratches the surface... that there are complexities... that Karzai and Pakistan may both hit up Uncle Sam for the pesos but that each has their own agenda, right?
Making this delineation, you are saying you are more akin to Karzai's way of thinking and that you sort of view this as a boxing match. The same organizer for the event, the same source of Gatorade for the boxers, the same fitness gyms for each gladiator - but one will eventually capitulate.
Yet ironically, when asking for such detail and such nuance to be injected into the discussion of why YOU have your views... you decided it was too much to afford nuances in the discussion of the origins, goals, battles, skirmishes, and history of the Quetta shura and their prior regime.
Here is a paper reference some of what you said, but providing that much needed nuance:
http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art...iban-1994-2010
This author provides various details regarding FC involvement, but makes sure to state something extremely important that you glossed over:
"Although the exact origin of the Taliban movement is controversial and shrouded in myth, we can be certain that the above-mentioned situation - lawlessness and lack of leadership - has paved the way for this radical movement. The Taliban still had to manage without the support of the ISI, which at that time was backing Hekmatyar's Hizb-i Islami."
This means their very origin, and its rather obvious by looking at the linguistic roots and tribal origins of each member of the shura, which was documented by that driveling neocon interventionalist pet Ahmad Rashid - and confirmed by Zaeef in his autobio, was from Ghilzai and Durrani tribes in Qandahar.
Their origin story appears to be accurate.
Islamabad would send FC to fight alongside the Taliban. The US sends its air force to aid the ANA.
Once again, my dear dyed in the red friend, nuance, detail, and other aspects of what this means escapes you. I fear that your advice to Daggarwal about readings books ought to be taken by yourself as well. If detail escapes your thought processes then are you as informed as you might think?
Lets go back to that paper and examine what the FC is and what the ANA is for inquiring minds:
"This use of Pakistan's Frontier Corps was apparently not an isolated case. In addition to the training of fighters, company-size FC elements in Afghanistan were also used for command and control tasks and, if necessary, for fighting action itself. The reason for the use of the FC was that its units, as opposed to those of the Punjabi-dominated army, were completely or at least predominantly composed of Pashtuns. This represents the Taliban and the people in the South of Afghanistan."
"The leadership of the army has been primarily Tajik since the ANA was organized in 2002, and Tajiks have been over-represented in the officer corps from the beginning. But the original troop composition of the ANA was relatively well-balanced ethnically.
Here is what Matthew Hoh supplemented:
The NY Times supplemented this information:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/07/wo...anted=all&_r=0
"The absence of southern Pashtuns reinforces the impression here that the army is largely a northern institution — to be used against them — and what Afghan and Western officials worry is a dangerous division of the country."
The Taliban were aided and mentored by Pakistani majors. The US mentors Karzai's army.
Ah but lets get back to the question of why and how and who instigated what. Who put their hands into the sandbox first?
http://content.time.com/time/magazin...062364,00.html
This supplements Scheuer's article regarding Indian MiGs flying alongside Russian ones.
http://thediplomat.com/2010/08/30/th...ar-flashpoint/
Meaning your Red Boys in the hood that Putin used to lead and their Red Dot on the forehead counterparts where sticking their noses into the conflict and supporting forebears of the ANA (Northern Alliance and certain parts of Najib's government like that crack head Atmar's contigents) either alongside Pakistan or even earlier than Pakistan initiated support for the Taliban base on the very first reference.
The Taliban never attacked Pakistan or its interests. Karzai cannot work against American interests.
Nuance, nuance, detail, detail brother. Lets look at those "interests."
http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/10/afgha...not-apologies/
Does letting this Pashtun down on his quest for justice according to the traditions, way of life, and ideology of the Afghan people constitute interests in your thoughts?
In addition there were some tribal leaders, the relatives of the five killed boys and “two foreign envoys”, whose name is not known. “The two Americans apologised, admitting they have killed innocent people,” Agha told IPS.
“In front of all the participants they said they made an error,” said Khan. Abdulzai said “the Americans offered their apology in front of the victims’ families and Nangarhar’s authorities.”
All the victims’ relatives this IPS correspondent met said they had received some offers from the “foreign envoys” as a form of ‘compensation’.
“The Americans said they would help us, now and in future,” said Agha. “They did not offer any amount of money, but when we left the palace we found some cars with sacks of food. We all agreed to refuse that offer: we are poor but we do not sell our own blood.”
“Our request is clear,” Khan told IPS. “Give us the pilots of the two helicopters. We will handle them according to our culture, to the Holy Quran and to what the Hadith prescribes. Then, we will give them back to the U.S., saying ‘we are very sorry’, as they did with us.”
So now which interests align with Karzai's who may very well grant immunity in this and 100% of other situations.
Does this villager's interests get trumped according to you? Apparently so - which means in your zeal to associate any and all things that resist occupation with Pakistan, you are willing to do scorched earth injustice.
We can see how well that worked out in Okinawa (sarcasm).
And please explain to me how, when a Swedish reporter embedded with Commander Dauran, showing Dauran Safi's links to Afghanistan's soil, Dauran is less representative of the Afghan people than Karzai and Fahim? Note this article indicates Dauran's original group was not a part of the Tor Patkeewal's movement but joined them subsequently:
http://www.thefrontierpost.com/article/49283/
http://watchdocumentary.org/watch/ta...d5524bce9.html
The Taliban (and their allies) sought refuge in Pakistan after 2001. Karzai and his cronies will fly to the US after their fall.
My dear friend, once again, read-read-read-read. I could write a whole book on the movements of the Karzai bas-tard clan. Where was Karzai pre 2001? Where were he and Sherzai sharing green tea and sugared almonds? in Quetta. Qayyum was in America as well as a few other brothers. But the head honcho and his Al Capone brother (Ahmad Wali) were in Quetta as was their father.
This is not all too different than a number of prior Afghan leaders who entered prior British India as a backwards operating area, including Karzai's doctrinal twin, Shah Shuja who went as far as Ludhiana and organized a faulty resistance from there. The exceptions are Dost Mohammad and Abdurrahman who went into Russo areas when they needed a backward operating base. One of the current NDS bigwigs, Yama Karzai is true and blue Quetta through and through most of his life.
The Peshawar group Karzai played gopher for was also based on Islamabad.
The Taliban's foreign affairs were controlled by Islamabad. Karzai's foreign affairs are under US control.
I generally like to put the ball in the other argumentationalist's court. It allows the other to feel confident in his correctness and engage wholeheartedly... it also permits for some over confidence
So lets go with your logic. Karzai's coffers are replete, by his own admission, with bags of money from local powers with a vested interest. You are not illiterate and you know this as well as I do. To date he has admitted bags of money coming in from two sources in the open source media: US and Iran, right?
Where does Islamabad's money emanate from? Who provides economic life support for Pakistan and who equips its military with murdering machines?
So now you will interject by saying... that such an argument barely scratches the surface... that there are complexities... that Karzai and Pakistan may both hit up Uncle Sam for the pesos but that each has their own agenda, right?
Making this delineation, you are saying you are more akin to Karzai's way of thinking and that you sort of view this as a boxing match. The same organizer for the event, the same source of Gatorade for the boxers, the same fitness gyms for each gladiator - but one will eventually capitulate.
Yet ironically, when asking for such detail and such nuance to be injected into the discussion of why YOU have your views... you decided it was too much to afford nuances in the discussion of the origins, goals, battles, skirmishes, and history of the Quetta shura and their prior regime.
Here is a paper reference some of what you said, but providing that much needed nuance:
http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art...iban-1994-2010
This author provides various details regarding FC involvement, but makes sure to state something extremely important that you glossed over:
"Although the exact origin of the Taliban movement is controversial and shrouded in myth, we can be certain that the above-mentioned situation - lawlessness and lack of leadership - has paved the way for this radical movement. The Taliban still had to manage without the support of the ISI, which at that time was backing Hekmatyar's Hizb-i Islami."
This means their very origin, and its rather obvious by looking at the linguistic roots and tribal origins of each member of the shura, which was documented by that driveling neocon interventionalist pet Ahmad Rashid - and confirmed by Zaeef in his autobio, was from Ghilzai and Durrani tribes in Qandahar.
Their origin story appears to be accurate.
Islamabad would send FC to fight alongside the Taliban. The US sends its air force to aid the ANA.
Once again, my dear dyed in the red friend, nuance, detail, and other aspects of what this means escapes you. I fear that your advice to Daggarwal about readings books ought to be taken by yourself as well. If detail escapes your thought processes then are you as informed as you might think?
Lets go back to that paper and examine what the FC is and what the ANA is for inquiring minds:
"This use of Pakistan's Frontier Corps was apparently not an isolated case. In addition to the training of fighters, company-size FC elements in Afghanistan were also used for command and control tasks and, if necessary, for fighting action itself. The reason for the use of the FC was that its units, as opposed to those of the Punjabi-dominated army, were completely or at least predominantly composed of Pashtuns. This represents the Taliban and the people in the South of Afghanistan."
Read subreference 38 in the paper by Hanni and Hegi. And who are the ANA and who supported their forebears?
Here is a website that Scheuer, Raimondo, Paul, Buchanon, and Bacevich contribute to. Gareth Porter provides a nice summary:
http://original.antiwar.com/porter/2...ew-ethnic-war/
http://original.antiwar.com/porter/2...ew-ethnic-war/
"The leadership of the army has been primarily Tajik since the ANA was organized in 2002, and Tajiks have been over-represented in the officer corps from the beginning. But the original troop composition of the ANA was relatively well-balanced ethnically.
Eikenberry acted after then Defense Minister Marshall Mohammed Qasim Fahim had packed the first group of ANA recruits to be trained with Tajiks.
Porter provides a nice subreference to Sopko's report and indicates things have changed by even the US's latest estimates:
"The latest report of the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction, issued Oct. 30, shows that Tajiks, which represent 25 percent of the population, now account for 41 percent of all ANA troops who have been trained, and that only 30 percent of the ANA trainees are now Pashtuns."
Here is what Matthew Hoh supplemented:
"Even in overwhelmingly Pashtun Zabul province, there are only two Pashtun kandak commanders out of a total of six, Matthew Hoh, the senior U.S. civilian in Zabul until he submitted his resignation in September in protest against the war, told IPS in an interview."
The NY Times supplemented this information:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/07/wo...anted=all&_r=0
"The absence of southern Pashtuns reinforces the impression here that the army is largely a northern institution — to be used against them — and what Afghan and Western officials worry is a dangerous division of the country."
The Taliban were aided and mentored by Pakistani majors. The US mentors Karzai's army.
Ah but lets get back to the question of why and how and who instigated what. Who put their hands into the sandbox first?
http://content.time.com/time/magazin...062364,00.html
India supported the Soviet-backed regime of Mohammed Najibullah, giving asylum to his family, as well as to thousands of other Afghan refugees, after he was executed by the Taliban in 1996. India then backed the Northern Alliance of mujahedin against the Taliban. Even when the Taliban won, India let the Northern Alliance maintain the only Afghan diplomatic mission in New Delhi.
This supplements Scheuer's article regarding Indian MiGs flying alongside Russian ones.
http://thediplomat.com/2010/08/30/th...ar-flashpoint/
Meaning your Red Boys in the hood that Putin used to lead and their Red Dot on the forehead counterparts where sticking their noses into the conflict and supporting forebears of the ANA (Northern Alliance and certain parts of Najib's government like that crack head Atmar's contigents) either alongside Pakistan or even earlier than Pakistan initiated support for the Taliban base on the very first reference.
The Taliban never attacked Pakistan or its interests. Karzai cannot work against American interests.
Nuance, nuance, detail, detail brother. Lets look at those "interests."
http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/10/afgha...not-apologies/
Does letting this Pashtun down on his quest for justice according to the traditions, way of life, and ideology of the Afghan people constitute interests in your thoughts?
In addition there were some tribal leaders, the relatives of the five killed boys and “two foreign envoys”, whose name is not known. “The two Americans apologised, admitting they have killed innocent people,” Agha told IPS.
“In front of all the participants they said they made an error,” said Khan. Abdulzai said “the Americans offered their apology in front of the victims’ families and Nangarhar’s authorities.”
All the victims’ relatives this IPS correspondent met said they had received some offers from the “foreign envoys” as a form of ‘compensation’.
“The Americans said they would help us, now and in future,” said Agha. “They did not offer any amount of money, but when we left the palace we found some cars with sacks of food. We all agreed to refuse that offer: we are poor but we do not sell our own blood.”
“Our request is clear,” Khan told IPS. “Give us the pilots of the two helicopters. We will handle them according to our culture, to the Holy Quran and to what the Hadith prescribes. Then, we will give them back to the U.S., saying ‘we are very sorry’, as they did with us.”
So now which interests align with Karzai's who may very well grant immunity in this and 100% of other situations.
Does this villager's interests get trumped according to you? Apparently so - which means in your zeal to associate any and all things that resist occupation with Pakistan, you are willing to do scorched earth injustice.
We can see how well that worked out in Okinawa (sarcasm).
And please explain to me how, when a Swedish reporter embedded with Commander Dauran, showing Dauran Safi's links to Afghanistan's soil, Dauran is less representative of the Afghan people than Karzai and Fahim? Note this article indicates Dauran's original group was not a part of the Tor Patkeewal's movement but joined them subsequently:
http://www.thefrontierpost.com/article/49283/
http://watchdocumentary.org/watch/ta...d5524bce9.html
The Taliban (and their allies) sought refuge in Pakistan after 2001. Karzai and his cronies will fly to the US after their fall.
My dear friend, once again, read-read-read-read. I could write a whole book on the movements of the Karzai bas-tard clan. Where was Karzai pre 2001? Where were he and Sherzai sharing green tea and sugared almonds? in Quetta. Qayyum was in America as well as a few other brothers. But the head honcho and his Al Capone brother (Ahmad Wali) were in Quetta as was their father.
This is not all too different than a number of prior Afghan leaders who entered prior British India as a backwards operating area, including Karzai's doctrinal twin, Shah Shuja who went as far as Ludhiana and organized a faulty resistance from there. The exceptions are Dost Mohammad and Abdurrahman who went into Russo areas when they needed a backward operating base. One of the current NDS bigwigs, Yama Karzai is true and blue Quetta through and through most of his life.
The Peshawar group Karzai played gopher for was also based on Islamabad.
At the end of the day LZ, it comes down to Kawun Kakar, a Karzai henchman by the way, saying the following:
http://institute-for-afghan-studies....ntro_kakar.htm
"In reality, the traditional way of life in villages has changed little by Taliban's rule."
---------------------------------------------
What does all the above mean LZ? It means you are being short sighted and still pushing the narrative that dehumanizes any aspect of what even the US by now views as a legitimate grass roots resistance movement it is trying to pacify through multiple approaches.
Its a tamer version of that foolish statement Bost Bastan put out above where he somehow claims that all beggars in Afghanistan are Pakis and Wahhabis. Have you ever heard a stupider comment? No wonder the readership of that paper is so poor in intellectual capacity.
You on the other hand, I expect more from. Its time to quit pushing the pseudo nationalist propaganda and come to a better moral conclusion.
What this means is that one need not accept either Islamabad or Washington's involvement nor Delhi nor Tehran, etc. If we accept that we are bystanders and have no impact whatsoever on the outcome, which is what we are - then there is nothing wrong with taking the complete ethical claim on this matter which is to state that whether it be Mullah Omar, Karzai, Sherzai, Hekmetyaar etc etc.. we need not accept any person who is not for complete autonomy of the people and in line with the culture, values, and traditions of the Afghan people.
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