Fifty thousands pashtuns killed in pakistan by terror,not a single protest

[Smarty]

Pashtun shorcomings in what?

not being a slave minded british agent worshipper such as you?

the people killed in pukhtunkhwa are done by napak army and napak pathans.
poonjabi ruling days are over buddy , Pashtuns wil resist the hindu culture of pakistan.

How old are you?

[Smarty]

Pashtun shorcomings in what?

not being a slave minded british agent worshipper such as you?

the people killed in pukhtunkhwa are done by napak army and napak pathans.
poonjabi ruling days are over buddy , Pashtuns wil resist the hindu culture of pakistan.

How old are you?

[Bengal_Tiger]

1. From what I know for the time being Yusufzais, Khattaks, Afridis and others are loyal to Pakistan. They have made jirga and decided that the TTP and co are troublemakers. This has been the situation for the past few years.

2. However before that there were certain Pakhtoons e.g. Khattaks who actually supported the TTP as fellow Pashtuns fighting against the Pakistani army. I mention the Khattaks specifically because I have some indication that they (or a faction amongst them) were sympathetic to the militants before the militants exceeded certain behaviour.

3. When the TTP had the support of Pakhtoon tribes (I have never ever heard that Yusufzais ever had any sympathy for the militants), nearly the whole of Pakhtunkhwa was under their direct control or influence.

This is one map:



Here is another which is slightly different:



Another one, and the green areas in this map which have no Taliban represent mainly non-Pashtun areas e.g. Kohistan, the Taliban had control or presence in virtually all Pashtun areas.



Then in 2009 the Pakistani army went in and took control but they still "officially" do not have full control of certain areas where militants are operating.

Anyway prior to 2009 one of the reasons why the Taliban were so successful were that they had support amongst many Pashtun tribes including Pashtuns serving inside the Pakistan army and ISI (Pakistani spy agency) who even leaked information to them. I have indication that some Afridis and Khattaks supported the militants, but to repeat I've never heard of any Yusufzais - but that is only what I know and maybe there was a point where some Yusufzais were sympathetic to the TTP, fellow Pakhtuns, against the Pakistani army. I don't know.

The BLA who numbered only a few thousand and from the Baloch who are a far smaller nation than Pashtuns with far less resources, have damaged Pakistan so much that last year the then prime minister of Pakistan spoke of maybe organizing an independence referendum.



BLA rebels.

If the Khattaks and Yusufzais alone decided to fight against the Pakistani army which is spiritually descended from Ranjit Singh, then the Pakistani army would not be able to stop them, let alone the 4+ million Pashtuns of Karachi who could turn Pakistan's biggest city in to a nightmare and devastate the whole country, let alone the support that Khattaks and Yusufzais could muster from Pashtuns in Afghanistan e.g. Durranis, Ghilzais.

I mention the Khattaks and Yusufzais because they are possibly the two biggest tribes in Pakhtunkhwa, but my point is if a critical mass of Pashtuns is reached that have agreed Pakistan must be expelled from Pashtun lands (regardless of which tribe), then it is "bye bye Pakistan"

However the Khattaks and Yusufzais would only do this if there was pan-tribal consensus, as kicking out the Punjabis and having a statelet confined only to Khattak and Yusufzai areas is pointless, though these two tribes themselves could kick out the Pakistan army.

The Pakistan army is a force that could easily be defeated and expelled from Muslim and Pashtun lands. It is a paper tiger as the BLA who have made Pakistan's prime minister at one point talk of an independence referendum have shown.

However Pashtuns in Pakistan and the big tribes e.g. Yusufzais, Khattaks are all loyal to Pakistan and the jealous nature of Pashtun tribes where they always hate each other and compete with each other also makes them prefer "outsiders" (Islamabad-Rawalpindi) to run things than a fellow Pashtun.

Before people think I live in delusion, let me make it clear there is absolutely no indication that Yusufzais, Khattaks or others have decided to rebel against Pakistan. They think it is better for them to be part of it and then there is also the religious brainwashing where many think it is sinful (gunah) to rebel against Pakistan.

So there is no indication that something like the scenario I have spoken about above are anything close to happening. Plus the most important factor in the tribes decision making is the future well-being and prosperity of them and their children, for now they think it is better to stay in Pakistan where they can migrate to Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi for work and jobs, and having the passport of a "nuclear" state is more beneficial. Plus there exists no suitable alternative towards Pakistan.

However their loyalty to Pakistan is not absolute and unlimited and there is definitely a point in which they would rebel if things deteriorate.

[Smarty]

[MENTION=1058]Bengal_Tiger[/MENTION]
Salam, i enjoy reading your posts. I would like to comment on your analysis.
1- Khattaks and yousafzais, the two most famous tribes of trans-indus plains, are very much integrated into Pakistan. Khattaks of karak and nowshera and yousafzais of swabi and mardan have tradition of joining army since british times. Both are considered highly pro-establishment tribes.
Yousafzai tribe has lost the traditional pashtun tribal set up, their society no longer function as a tribe, sub-tribes, clans....affairs and issues are not sorted out with jirga. Tribal identity is of tertiary importance, yousafzais are most numerous but are disorganized and diluted, have lost the aggressiveness and pashtunwali that are characteristics of tribal pashtuns.
Khattaks of nowshera and mardan are highly disorganized and mixed like yousafzais but those of karak have retained some tribal framework. The whole khattak tribe has high tendency to recruit in pak army. They are the only ones who zero presence of taliban among them.
It is wrong notion that afridi tribe is pro-establishment and that they are very integrated people like khattaks and yousafzais. They have lesser inclination towards army. They have retained typical pashtun values and have been always troublesome and unruly. You must have heard about tariq afridi of TTP and mangal bagh, they are the second most troublesome tribe after mehsuds for pak army.
Overall its not khattak, yousafzais , mohmands or afridi which have the ability to face a professional army. Its mehsuds which make 90% of TTP and fought almost every where against pak army from swat, bajaur to waziristan...its them who have killed bulk of paki faujis.

[ډګروال]

How old are you?

why have you posted it twice "smarty"?

why you mad?

looking at your above comment it seems you are extremely anti Pashtun to the point to you being Pashtun is anti Pakistan.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

[MENTION=1058]Bengal_Tiger[/MENTION]
Salam, i enjoy reading your posts. I would like to comment on your analysis.
1- Khattaks and yousafzais, the two most famous tribes of trans-indus plains, are very much integrated into Pakistan. Khattaks of karak and nowshera and yousafzais of swabi and mardan have tradition of joining army since british times. Both are considered highly pro-establishment tribes.
Yousafzai tribe has lost the traditional pashtun tribal set up, their society no longer function as a tribe, sub-tribes, clans....affairs and issues are not sorted out with jirga. Tribal identity is of tertiary importance, yousafzais are most numerous but are disorganized and diluted, have lost the aggressiveness and pashtunwali that are characteristics of tribal pashtuns.
Khattaks of nowshera and mardan are highly disorganized and mixed like yousafzais but those of karak have retained some tribal framework. The whole khattak tribe has high tendency to recruit in pak army. They are the only ones who zero presence of taliban among them.
It is wrong notion that afridi tribe is pro-establishment and that they are very integrated people like khattaks and yousafzais. They have lesser inclination towards army. They have retained typical pashtun values and have been always troublesome and unruly. You must have heard about tariq afridi of TTP and mangal bagh, they are the second most troublesome tribe after mehsuds for pak army.
Overall its not khattak, yousafzais , mohmands or afridi which have the ability to face a professional army. Its mehsuds which make 90% of TTP and fought almost every where against pak army from swat, bajaur to waziristan...its them who have killed bulk of paki faujis.

Bengal Pussycat is talking nonsense. He is a Bengali telling us Pashtuns who we are.

[Smarty]

Pashtun shorcomings in what?

not being a slave minded british agent worshipper such as you?

the people killed in pukhtunkhwa are done by napak army and napak pathans.
poonjabi ruling days are over buddy , Pashtuns wil resist the hindu culture of pakistan.

why have you posted it twice "smarty"?

why you mad?

looking at your above comment it seems you are extremely anti Pashtun to the point to you being Pashtun is anti Pakistan.

Why you are so emotional and angry? .....does it matter whether i am pashtun or anti-pashtun?, getting angry over online forums on discussions like this is of no use. Keep the discussion civil and mature, then people will take you seriously and no one would ask about your age.

[Smarty]

Bengal Pussycat is talking nonsense. He is a Bengali telling us Pashtuns who we are.

He seems to have better knowledge about pakistan and its pashtun population than most of the afghan members here.

[Badlun]

Kindly note that the whole Malakand division with districts of Swat, Shangla, Buner, Dir(upper and lower) like Mardan and Swabai are Yousafzai Pashtuns where Taliban has a lot of influence. The notorious Mulla Fazlullah is a Yousafzai Pashtun. Swat remain under Taliban direct rule for more than two years.

Karak is 100% Khattak but it has no influence of Taliban. But the same Khattaks have Taliban in Kohat. The influence of Taliban is not tribe wise. It mainly depends on the difficulty of terrain where they can have hide outs. Education can be another factor. Karak has the highest literacy rate.

However now Taliban does not have any public support anywhere. Their influence is because of terror not that the people love them. In Swat which was ruled by them , now after the successful operation of the army , you will not find a single Talib.

Pashtuns are almost the same everywhere in their attachment to Pashtunwali. The difference in tribal areas is that there the jurisdiction of judiciary, district governments and police are not extended. Malakand was a tribal area but after extension of judiciary etc its tribal outlook is totally changed.

[Bengal_Tiger]

[MENTION=1058]Bengal_Tiger[/MENTION]
Salam, i enjoy reading your posts. I would like to comment on your analysis.
1- Khattaks and yousafzais, the two most famous tribes of trans-indus plains, are very much integrated into Pakistan. Khattaks of karak and nowshera and yousafzais of swabi and mardan have tradition of joining army since british times. Both are considered highly pro-establishment tribes.
Yousafzai tribe has lost the traditional pashtun tribal set up, their society no longer function as a tribe, sub-tribes, clans....affairs and issues are not sorted out with jirga. Tribal identity is of tertiary importance, yousafzais are most numerous but are disorganized and diluted, have lost the aggressiveness and pashtunwali that are characteristics of tribal pashtuns.
Khattaks of nowshera and mardan are highly disorganized and mixed like yousafzais but those of karak have retained some tribal framework. The whole khattak tribe has high tendency to recruit in pak army. They are the only ones who zero presence of taliban among them.
It is wrong notion that afridi tribe is pro-establishment and that they are very integrated people like khattaks and yousafzais. They have lesser inclination towards army. They have retained typical pashtun values and have been always troublesome and unruly. You must have heard about tariq afridi of TTP and mangal bagh, they are the second most troublesome tribe after mehsuds for pak army.
Overall its not khattak, yousafzais , mohmands or afridi which have the ability to face a professional army. Its mehsuds which make 90% of TTP and fought almost every where against pak army from swat, bajaur to waziristan...its them who have killed bulk of paki faujis.

1. There are divisions amongst Pashtuns in different ways.

a: Nationalist v Pro-Pakistan (there are people who are both actually).

b: Tribals (FATA) v settled (KPK)

c: Peshawar valley v elsewhere (ANP is seen sometimes as being a party for the Peshawar valley).

Yusufzais are seen as "softer" Pashtuns, more gentler. They are integrated in to Pakistan more than others but there are many nationalists (ANP-walas etc) amongst them. Unless I'm wrong the Hotis are a type of Yusufzai.

Khattaks include nationalists and do have tribal members amongst them and have feuds with Afridis and Shinwaris etc.

The Waziris/Mehsuds by themselves do not have the capability to take the whole of KPK, because they would be resisted by tribes loyal to Pakistan.

Even a tribe with Pakistani loyalists such as the Marwats have militants amongst them e.g. the one who claimed the Peshawar church bombing.

The Waziris/Mehsuds are traditional nationalists, the ANP-walas are modern nationalists. The first is based on traditional tribalism and dislike of outsiders, the second is based on European-style notions of ethnolinguistic identity and the nation-state.

Aside from the feelings of the Pashtun tribes themselves (and by no means am I an expert) the other issue is the level of stability and (dis)functionality of the Pakistani state, the more unstable it is the greater the chance that KPK Pashtuns would think of a separate state. Most would prefer a stable Pakistan though, and an independent Pakhtunkhwa only if Pakistan fails.

The Pashtuns of Junoobi Pakhtunkhwa (Balochistan) are more nationalistic, traditional Pashtuns and more comfortable with being called Afghan.

[Bengal_Tiger]

By the way the second type of nationalists I spoke about "modern nationalists" (e.g. ANP-walas) can include ethnic non-Pashtuns e.g. Hindkos, even some of the Punjabi-origin Christians of Peshawar such as those who were bombed would be accepted by the ANP.

The ANP is based on pacifism and an inclusive non-ethnic nationalism open to all ready to embrace local regional nationalism.

Some of its most militant leaders are Hindkos.

Badlun was totally right about the Swat Yusufzais and also totally right that Pashtuns in general have rejected the terror and extremism of the TTP after seeing their true face.

[Kushan Prince]

@Bengal Tiger
My comments on your summary

- Pashtuns are only tribal now because of current economic, developmental situation but so were the gulf Arabs, Germanic tribes of the past. They progressed, so can Pashtuns.

Yes so can Pashtuns but how? By following wahabism/islamism or democracy, development, modern education, human rights?
- Terrorism and extremism is not inherent to Pashtuns.

Yes not at all inherent. Pashtuns were not terrorists before 1979, before the introduction of wahabism/salafism and emergence of Taliban.



- Pashtuns are victims of forces pumping in fundamentalism in to their area through the mushrooming of Deobandi madrassas.
100% agree

- The Deobandi and Wahabi traditions are not native to Pashtuns but come from India and Arabia. Sufism was what Pashtuns were traditionally.

100% agree

- Tribal Pashtuns do not want foreign terrorists in their homeland.

They do not want but foreign terrorists are there. There are some Pashtuns with whom Pashtunwali comes after Islamism and for them a Muslim guest from Arabia or Uzbekistan is most welcomed in the spirit of Islamic brotherhood.

- Punjabis and others seek to vilify and potray "Pathans" as inherent terrorists and barbarians.
Pashtuns give them reasons to do so.

Gulf Arabs still live in tribes. Tribalism has nothing to do with progression.

[Badlun]

1. There are divisions amongst Pashtuns in different ways.

These divisions are not inter tribes or within tribes but Pashtuns about 60 or 70 millions of people will definitely have differences but division is a bigger word. For me all Pashtuns are mmebers of a larger extended family and there are differences even amongst brothers.

a: Nationalist v Pro-Pakistan (there are people who are both actually).

Every Pashtun is nationalist because every Pashtun is proud of being Pashtun. Only very religious minded and Taliban like Pashtuns discourages nationalism. pro Pakistan or anti Pakistan is not nationalism. Pro Islamism can be anti nationalism. I see less Pashtun nationalsim in Afghan Pashtuns as compared to Pakistani Pashtuns.


b: Tribals (FATA) v settled (KPK)

There are many tribal Pashtuns living in settled areas. As I said above in tribal areas the lack of judiciary, police and district governments make the difference not any thing inherent in tribal and non tribal.

c: Peshawar valley v elsewhere (ANP is seen sometimes as being a party for the Peshawar valley).

ANP gets seats from the whole Pashtunkhwa including Balochistan.

Yusufzais are seen as "softer" Pashtuns, more gentler. They are integrated in to Pakistan more than others but there are many nationalists (ANP-walas etc) amongst them. Unless I'm wrong the Hotis are a type of Yusufzai.

Yousafzais of Dir are very tough more than even some wazirs or mehsuds. Wwazirs of bannu or Domail are very soft Pashtuns. There is nothing inherent in the tribe. All Pashtuns are the same. Depends where they live an dtheir standard of life. Aa wazir in Islamabad cannot de differentiated from a Yousafzai or Khattak. A yousafzai of Dir or Swat is thousands times harder than a Mehsud living in Peshawar and studying in Edward College.

Khattaks include nationalists and do have tribal members amongst them and have feuds with Afridis and Shinwaris etc.

In modern day there are no feuds of Khattaks with other tribes.

The Waziris/Mehsuds by themselves do not have the capability to take the whole of KPK, because they would be resisted by tribes loyal to Pakistan.

There is no such word as Waziri. The name is wazir. Wazirs or Mehsuds do not have any ambition to take KP. They are the most loyal tribes of Pakistan. The problem is Islamism. Those who are fighting against the army for them is a fight for Islam(Jihad) not a war of nationalism.

Even a tribe with Pakistani loyalists such as the Marwats have militants amongst them e.g. the one who claimed the Peshawar church bombing.

The Waziris/Mehsuds are traditional nationalists, the ANP-walas are modern nationalists. The first is based on traditional tribalism and dislike of outsiders, the second is based on European-style notions of ethnolinguistic identity and the nation-state.

Agreed but now modern nationalism is being penetrated in tribal areas as before political parties did not have an access to tribal areas. Now ANP is a stronger party in tribal areas.

Aside from the feelings of the Pashtun tribes themselves (and by no means am I an expert) the other issue is the level of stability and (dis)functionality of the Pakistani state, the more unstable it is the greater the chance that KPK Pashtuns would think of a separate state. Most would prefer a stable Pakistan though, and an independent Pakhtunkhwa only if Pakistan fails.

If terrorism is controlled Pakistan will survive. Pakistan's only problem is wahabism, Salafism and religious extremism. Otherwise it is a democratic modern state of about 200 million people.

The Pashtuns of Junoobi Pakhtunkhwa (Balochistan) are more nationalistic, traditional Pashtuns and more comfortable with being called Afghan.

Every Pashtun loves to be called Afghan but this is now because of every one from Afghanistan to be Afghan by nationality so this word is losing popularity in Pakistan.

[ډګروال]

Why you are so emotional and angry? .....does it matter whether i am pashtun or anti-pashtun?, getting angry over online forums on discussions like this is of no use. Keep the discussion civil and mature, then people will take you seriously and no one would ask about your age.

you are so stupid mr "smarty"

yes it matters if you are anti Pahtun or not.
i wonder why people such as you who have insulted Afghanistan and is here to cause friction and promote anti Pashtun sentiments are allowd on this forum int he first palce.

[Bengal_Tiger]

Badlun, I am not disputing your superior knowledge of Pakhtunkhwa but there are a couple of points.

1. The ANP is disliked by some as they view it as a party catering for "Charsadda and the Peshawar valley" e.g. people in Malakand feel neglected.

2. The ANP may be making inroads in to tribal areas but so is the PTI. The ANP has lost a lot of support amongst Pashtuns for being seen as corrupt.

3. The Pashtuns I spoke to (non-Yusufzais) said Yusufzais are seen as tough like all Pashtuns but softer than people like the Wazirs, Afridis. To be honest in my experience mention a tribe and a Pashtun will say something negative about them I have found only Yusufzais to be mentioned positively by people from another tribe.

Anyway I am not a Pashtun and have no business in saying what Pashtuns of Pakhtunkhwa should or shouldn't do (though I have views on what will happen). I do know this, Pashtuns of KPK:

- Do not want war.

- Do not want deaths.

- Do not want tears.

- Do not want destruction.

What they do want is:

- Jobs

- Future for their family

- Live in peace

- Respect for their Pashtun culture

If they can get all of the above as part of Pakistan they will be happy.

Anyway let's hope all this bloodshed, carnage, slaughter, tears, pain all end.

It's Jumah today so let's make du'a after salatul jumu'ah (jumah namaz) for peace for Muslims.

Thanks.